Is this for real? Jewish Laws

[Sunnichick31]

Ok, so I"ve been looking around Your Not Crazy, and some of the Jewish laws seem so insane, that I can't beleive they are actually true!

For example, this one about how if you are giong to convert, you have to agree to send your kids to Jewish day school. Does that mean that the only way a person can convert is if they live near a Jewish school?

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2010/12/convert-issues-community-requirement.html

 

Then this post- crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-to-do-if-you-question-validity-of.html

Why would 1 persons conversion affect the validity of other convesions? Why isn't a conversion between you and God? Why is it between you, God and a community?

 

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/07/non-mevushal-wine-survival-tips.html

Why would a non-Jew touching wine make it non-Kosher? I'm sorry if I offend any Jews, but that's ridiculous.

 

Are the rules she talks about real???

[GoJiRa]

Ok, so I"ve been looking around Your Not Crazy, and some of the Jewish laws seem so insane, that I can't beleive they are actually true!

For example, this one about how if you are giong to convert, you have to agree to send your kids to Jewish day school. Does that mean that the only way a person can convert is if they live near a Jewish school?

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2010/12/convert-issues-community-requirement.html

Then this post- crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-to-do-if-you-question-validity-of.html

Why would 1 persons conversion affect the validity of other convesions? Why isn't a conversion between you and God? Why is it between you, God and a community?

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/07/non-mevushal-wine-survival-tips.html

Why would a non-Jew touching wine make it non-Kosher? I'm sorry if I offend any Jews, but that's ridiculous.

Are the rules she talks about real???

There are many sharia laws I would consider insane as well

[thoughtful]

Ok, so I"ve been looking around Your Not Crazy, and some of the Jewish laws seem so insane, that I can't beleive they are actually true!

For example, this one about how if you are giong to convert, you have to agree to send your kids to Jewish day school. Does that mean that the only way a person can convert is if they live near a Jewish school?

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2010/12/convert-issues-community-requirement.html

Then this post- crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-to-do-if-you-question-validity-of.html

Why would 1 persons conversion affect the validity of other convesions? Why isn't a conversion between you and God? Why is it between you, God and a community?

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/07/non-mevushal-wine-survival-tips.html

Why would a non-Jew touching wine make it non-Kosher? I'm sorry if I offend any Jews, but that's ridiculous.

Are the rules she talks about real???

I've never heard of them. If she's encountered them, I guess they are real for some groups, but they are not "Jewish laws" -- they are the rules for those particular pockets of Orthodoxy.

:D

[emmiedahl]

Ok, so I"ve been looking around Your Not Crazy, and some of the Jewish laws seem so insane, that I can't beleive they are actually true!

For example, this one about how if you are giong to convert, you have to agree to send your kids to Jewish day school. Does that mean that the only way a person can convert is if they live near a Jewish school?

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2010/12/convert-issues-community-requirement.html

Then this post- crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-to-do-if-you-question-validity-of.html

Why would 1 persons conversion affect the validity of other convesions? Why isn't a conversion between you and God? Why is it between you, God and a community?

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/07/non-mevushal-wine-survival-tips.html

Why would a non-Jew touching wine make it non-Kosher? I'm sorry if I offend any Jews, but that's ridiculous.

Are the rules she talks about real???

They might be rules dictated by her community in general. I know converts who were not asked to send their kids to Jewish day school; they are not available in many areas of the nation, so that is probably not something a typical convert has to do. As for the conversion, when you convert you usually have the guidance of a rabbi, who assists you in learning to live like a Jew. If it ends up that the rabbi is letting anyone convert without a lot of guidance or oversight, then it calls into question all of the people converted by him or her.

As for the food thing, stricter Orthodox Jews will generally not eat food prepared by non-kosher people (I am Jewish, but they would not eat food I prepared; it's not about whether someone is Jewish but about whether they are kosher). And I know that this is also practiced by some strict Muslims to some degree, because an acquaintance of mine refused to eat at a local restaurant with a group of friends and me because the owners/staff are Hindu.

A good thing to remember about Orthodox Judaism is that there are community traditions and practices that may be stricter than Judaism itself dictates.

Edited because grammar is not my friend apparently.

[Sunnichick31]

There are many sharia laws I would consider insane as well

And that pertains to my questions about Jewish law because...???

[emmiedahl]

Just ignore him.

[snarkbillie]

They might be rules dictated by her community in general. I know converts who were not asked to send their kids to Jewish day school; they are not available in many areas of the nation, so that is probably not something a typical convert has to do. As for the conversion, when you convert you usually have the guidance of a rabbi, who assists you in learning to live like a Jew. If it ends up that the rabbi is letting anyone convert without a lot of guidance or oversight, then it calls into question all of the people converted by him or her.

As for the food thing, stricter Orthodox Jews will generally not eat food prepared by non-kosher people (I am Jewish, but they would not eat food I prepared; it's not about whether someone is Jewish but about whether they are kosher). And I know that this is also practiced by some strict Muslims to some degree, because an acquaintance of mine refused to eat at a local restaurant with a group of friends and I because the owners/staff are Hindu.

A good thing to remember about Orthodox Judaism is that there are community traditions and practices that may be stricter than Judaism itself dictates.

It makes sense to me (at least) not to partake in food prepared by someone who is not Kosher if you are Kosher. Those rules are important and someone who does not follow them may not realize they are doing something wrong.

[Lillybee]

A bit off-topic but the blogger warns people to stay away from Lina's blog.

[celestial]

Just ignore him.

Yeah. He's trying to get a rise out of you. Don't give him the satisfaction.

[CanadianHippie]

And that pertains to my questions about Jewish law because...???

Because he's an ass, not the fuzzy, cute, four legged kind. The other kind.

[Conuly]

Why would a non-Jew touching wine make it non-Kosher? I'm sorry if I offend any Jews, but that's ridiculous.

There was an article about this in the NYTimes a while back. I believe the issue is that when these rules were made up, wine was (and still is!) often consecrated to be used in religious ceremonies. And of course you can't use wine that was dedicated to somebody else's god, that's just wrong. At least, God thinks it is, it's, like, second-hand gross icky wine!

So, since you might be mistaken about the provenance of various wines, the rule moved from "No wine that's been consecrated for another religion" to "Listen, no wine by non-Jews, you just can't be sure it's safe".

[JumpingtheSnark]

I volunteer to take care of any wine with questionable Kosher provenance for all the Jewish free jingerites. My work, my gift to you.

[kemme]

Jewish day school requirement- Not an actual law, nor a requirement for all batei din. Probably just attempting to ensure that a convert`s children get a Jewish education, thus making it more likely they will stay Orthodox.

Conversion validity- It is of course about the convert and God, but in Judaism you don't have to be Jewish in order to go to heaven or whatever. So becoming a Jew is not necessary.

In Orthodox Judaism, when you convert, you are considered Jewish forever, even if you stop believing and convert to another religion. So rabbis like to be extremely sure about whether the convert is sincere or not. If they aren't, then they are just creating another Jew who quite possibly is not going to fulfill the mitzvot. So when one person converts for purposes other than being an Orthodox Jew, it casts a shadow of doubt on other converts.

Wine- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mevushal#R ... ing_kosher the first bit. I don't really fully understand tbh.

[pomology]

Ok, so I"ve been looking around Your Not Crazy, and some of the Jewish laws seem so insane, that I can't beleive they are actually true!

For example, this one about how if you are giong to convert, you have to agree to send your kids to Jewish day school. Does that mean that the only way a person can convert is if they live near a Jewish school?

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2010/12/convert-issues-community-requirement.html

Then this post- crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-to-do-if-you-question-validity-of.html

Why would 1 persons conversion affect the validity of other convesions? Why isn't a conversion between you and God? Why is it between you, God and a community?

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2011/07/non-mevushal-wine-survival-tips.html

Why would a non-Jew touching wine make it non-Kosher? I'm sorry if I offend any Jews, but that's ridiculous.

Are the rules she talks about real???

Don't worry. I'm a Jew and I think some of the stuff she posts about is crazy (although I really think she is a smart, thoughtful person).

Orthodox Judaism is very communal religion and it's really difficult to practice in a vacuum. Therefore, to convert Orthodox you pretty much have to be living in an Orthodox community. It isn't Jewish law that you have to send your kids to a Jewish day school, but it's a douchy Orthodox rule. But tbh, most people who sincerely convert Orthodox would want to live in an Ortho community and send their kids to an Ortho Jewish day school anyway.

Belief in the tenets of Judaism is between you and God. Conversion, not so much. Conversion is not so much about your beliefs about God and the world so much as it is declaring yourself to be a member of the Jewish people. There's a lot of complicated stuff I could go into about Judaism as a religion, Judaism as a nation and the historical development of both of those ideas and their significance in the Jewish community today, but suffice it to say, that no, conversion is not just between you and God, it's between you, God, and the Jewish people. It's a really complicated topic. But yes, it's incredibly fucked up that somebody's conversion could be called into question or revoked. But it would be a lot less of a problem if people like Lina didn't exist.

I don't understand her post about wine in the least, so it might be law, but if it is it's some weird Talmudic thing that, yes, is Jewish law because some rabbis a couple of thousand years ago found something to argue about. That's how our religion works. I know it's weird.

So to simplify, there is a difference between Jewish law and the rules of certain Orthodox Jewish communities. Most of what Skylar talks about that you think is totally crazy are the rules of certain Orthodox communities that probably only arose in the past hundred or two hundred years at most. There are often historical reasons for it to, although I'm sure a lot of Orthos would deny that, too.

[2xx1xy1JD]

No, conversion isn't just a personal matter. The closest comparison would be gaining citizenship to a country. Fair or not, if some immigrants get in under some fraudulent scheme, it could cast doubt on others who used the same immigration service, even if they happened to be legit. So, if there is a bad apple convert, someone may ask if the rabbi who did the conversion was doing a proper job or not. Then, if that rabbi's judgment is in question, others may say that his conversions can't be trusted to be legit. It becomes a huge communal issue, because you have people who have been accepted into the community, gotten married and had children, and if someone questions the legitimacy of the conversion, it not only throws their life into turmoil but also that of spouses, children and everybody around them.

Some of the current controversies have political overtones and may reflect power struggles within the Orthodox world, which isn't as monolithic as some may think. One day someone will say that Chabad can't be trusted, another day someone will question Modern Orthodox....It's a mess.

Re Jewish schools:

If someone is going to go through an Orthodox conversion, they pretty much need to be living around an Orthodox community. You need to be able to walk to a synagogue, to buy kosher food, and to be able to meet other religious needs. Jewish day schools were not always a requirement, since they didn't exist when Jews first came to North America, but today they are considered pretty much standard in the Orthodox community except in rare exceptional situations. I believe that it's requested so that (1) the children will have an opportunity to learn about their new religion and its requirements, esp since the parents are still just learning it themselves, and (2) to make sure that the parents are really sincere and committed, and not just going through the motions.

Re wine:

There is a rule in Judaism that you can't use any object that was used in idol worship.

Once upon a time, wine was commonly used in pagan religious rites. The ancient sages then said that as a precaution, any wine would be off-limits unless (1) it had never been used by a non-Jew, or (2) it was boiled first, since the pagans apparently wouldn't use boiled wine. Most of the kosher wine sold commercially today is "mevushal", meaning that it has been heated to a certain temperature and therefore can be touched by anyone. The Orthodox movement today insists that only kosher wine and grape products may be used if you keep kosher. The Conservative movement has a more lenient ruling, based on the fact that true idol worship is pretty rare today, so the rationale for the rule no longer applies.

[lexiloumarie]

I don't understand her post about wine in the least, so it might be law, but if it is it's some weird Talmudic thing that, yes, is Jewish law because some rabbis a couple of thousand years ago found something to argue about. That's how our religion works. I know it's weird.

The best description of our people possible. And the real reason we breed lawyers :P

[FaustianSlip]

In Orthodox Judaism, when you convert, you are considered Jewish forever, even if you stop believing and convert to another religion.

Fixed that for you. That's not just an Orthodox thing- it applies across all Jewish denominations (except maybe Renewal? I don't know enough about them to say). Reform, Conservative, once you convert, you're Jewish for life, kiddo, so you'd better be sure before you hop in the mikvah. There are the usual issues of who will accept whose conversion, obviously, but certainly as far as the denomination of your own conversion is concerned, once you're Jewish, you're Jewish. No take-backs. And, of course, in Orthodoxy, you're Jewish for life, as well, or at least until some Haredi rabbis decide to yank your conversion as a way of making a political statement, even if they render your kids non-Jews in the process. Not that that bothers me, or anything (even though I think it's in violation of halacha, for what that's worth).

The thing about agreeing to send your kids to twelve years of Orthodox day school is an attempt by Orthodox batei din (and as far as I know, this is a requirement of RCA batei din, not necessarily all batei din, but the RCA conversions are the only ones guaranteed to be accepted as valid by the Israeli rabbinate, so...) to tie converts to the Orthodox community permanently. There are a lot of people within the Orthodox community who have major issues with this requirement, for various reasons. The thing is, this assumes that Orthodox converts will, always and forever, be living in one of a few large communities in a few very specific places in the U.S., no matter what, and it also assumes that these converts' children (which they usually don't even have at the time of conversion) will have no special needs that might require them to either attend a public school or a non-Jewish, specialized school in order to have those needs addressed, as the majority of Orthodox day schools (and probably Jewish day schools in general) aren't equipped to deal with more severe developmental, learning or other issues. It also ignores the fact that Jewish day school tuition is often astronomically high, has been getting higher in recent years and if someone has to choose between feeding those kids or sending them to day school, they're probably going to head to the kosher supermarket. I say all of this as someone who thinks it's really important for kids to have a solid, Jewish education and hopes to send any kids she might have to Jewish day schools if at all possible, but I don't think there's much halachic basis for this requirement at all. I also say this as a non-Orthodox convert and someone who's not a member of the Orthodox community, so whatever. Their playground, their rules.

As far as the wine thing goes, yeah. It originally stems from a concern that in the past, various cults and such would use wine as part of their ceremonies (Bacchanalia, anyone?) or in offerings to their deities. Judaism, not being very big on other religions' deities, didn't want Jews buying or consuming wine that may have been used in or intended for these rituals, hence the rule. Admittedly, nowadays, that's not such a big problem (though I suppose you could ask some questions about communion), but since it's halacha, the rule stays, at least in frum communities. Trader Joe's actually sells mevushal (pasteurized, and thus exempt from this rule) wine, and most of the major kosher wine brands (Manischewitz, Baron Herzog) are mevushal, anyway. I suspect that virtually every Chabad house uses mevushal wine to avoid the issues that could arise with all kinds of Jewishly-affiliated people of varying degrees of observance trooping in and out, some of whom may not be halachically Jewish (at least not to the standards of Chabad). I actually have several cases of kosher wine in a closet as I type this, two of which are mevushal, one of which is not.

Yeah, we know it's weird, but we try and have a sense of humor about it. Mostly. :?

[Sola]

Orthodox Judaism is very communal religion and it's really difficult to practice in a vacuum. Therefore, to convert Orthodox you pretty much have to be living in an Orthodox community.

What about if you wanted to convert but there was either no community near you for you to move to, or moving was impossible (financially or otherwise)?

Would you still be able to convert if you didn't live in an Orthodox community?

[pomology]

What about if you wanted to convert but there was either no community near you for you to move to, or moving was impossible (financially or otherwise)?

Would you still be able to convert if you didn't live in an Orthodox community?

No. In order to convert Orthodox you have to go through a pretty extreme process of showing that you live a Jewish life, as well as a great deal of studying. It's impossible to do without having an Orthodox community. It sucks, but honestly, there's not much point in converting Orthodox unless you want to live in an Orthodox community, so, yeah, it sucks if it's really financially impossible, but that's the way it is.

[2xx1xy1JD]

No. In order to convert Orthodox you have to go through a pretty extreme process of showing that you live a Jewish life, as well as a great deal of studying. It's impossible to do without having an Orthodox community. It sucks, but honestly, there's not much point in converting Orthodox unless you want to live in an Orthodox community, so, yeah, it sucks if it's really financially impossible, but that's the way it is.

Yeah, that.

Judaism in general, and Orthodox Judaism in particular, allows conversion but does not actively encourage it. The reasoning is that a non-Jew only needs to obey 7 commandments, so it's far easier for a non-Jew to avoid sinning. However, if a non-Jew converted to Judaism, took on the obligation to follow all of the commandments for Jews (613 of them, although not all of them can be practiced today) and then found it hard, they would be sinning.

It's theoretically possible to live an Orthodox Jewish life without a strong Orthodox community, but not realistic if you are new to Judaism. For example, there are Chabad rabbis in Thailand, but the way that they get kosher chicken is by buying live chickens and slaughtering them themselves. It's far easier to go to the kosher meat section of a supermarket in a Jewish area.

FS - those are some real problems with the Jewish school requirement. I don't know if they make exceptions. I know my law clerk had a bad experience with this - her mom converted, they went to a Jewish day school, she was identified as special needs and sent to a Jewish day school specifically for those needs, and it sucked for her. When she switched to the public system, they did a much better job of accommodating her and she finally began to do well.

[FlorenceHamilton]

My sister-in-law had an Orthodox conversion about 18 years ago. She and my brother went on to live a secular, but somewhat observant Jewish life. Their children go to public school. They also attend religious school a few evenings a week. They celebrate holidays, attend shull, attempt to be at least symbolically kosher in the way they eat. They have friends of all stripes. They are totally mainstream in every way.

My sister-in-law is a Jew. The fact that she has chosen to be a moderate and secular Jew has no effect on the validity of her conversion. And she is entitled to Israeli citizenship if she so desires.

[FaustianSlip]

2xx1xy1JD- Yeah. I'm not at all against encouraging people to make sure that their kids are Jewishly educated. I certainly plan to do that for my kids, and I think it's important regardless of what denomination you are. But even FFB Jews are having a tough time affording day school tuition in this economy and having to make some tough choices, and the idea that it's better to send a kid to a Jewish day school where their needs are under served as opposed to a public or other school where they can take advantage of programs and help designed specifically for them is just absurd. And, of course, there are the questions of what you're supposed to do if, say, the only day school in your area that you can afford is more Haredi than your hashkafah or has less in the way of secular studies than you think your kid needs or whatever. It's one of the areas where I think Orthodox batei din are stepping over the line between ensuring converts are sincere and integrated into the community and using the powerlessness of converts as an opportunity to bully them into making promises to do things they have no way of knowing will or won't be feasible at the time of conversion. Sure, there are insincere converts, but I think the vast majority, certainly of those converting Orthodox, would make every effort to get their kids the best Jewish education possible given their circumstances. Even before this fiasco with the revoked conversions and such, an Orthodox conversion wasn't something a person is going to undertake lightly, and I don't think there are a lot of people out there who would move to a frum community, kasher their kitchen, observe Shabbos and Yom Tov and everything else... and then randomly send their kids to the local Catholic school. It seems like a solution without a problem to me, but like I said, not my community, so not my fight.

As far as living in an Orthodox community, it sucks for people converting, but that requirement, I get. Speaking as a Jewish lone ranger living in an area with very few Jews (and even fewer practicing Jews), it's difficult. Really, really tough, and I've practiced Judaism in very Jewishly bereft places before. You have to really work to stay observant to any degree, and I'll be honest and say that there are areas where I've had to compromise (though I think in other areas I've grown, so maybe it balances out).

My first few months here, I was more homesick for my congregation back in the States than I ever would have anticipated, and since then, I've had to actively work to carve out a Jewish life here. That's not a bad thing, in that it definitely makes me appreciate it when I'm in places that have a wealth of Jewish options, but I completely understand why rabbis in general and Orthodox rabbis in particular spend a lot of time trying to make sure that converts are integrated into a community, secure in their Jewish identity and in the best position to ensure that they're successful in their lives as Jews. There's an online conversion program I've heard of (I think the rabbi is Conservative, but I'm not sure), where you watch YouTube videos and chat with the rabbi online, read books, whatever, then fly somewhere for the beit din and mikvah, and I would never, ever recommend that. You really need a community to model practical Judaism for you, whatever your denomination, answer questions, help you create a Jewish past for yourself, and you can't get that on the internet. As my rabbi put it, you didn't come in with a Jewish childhood or history, so you have to take control and make one for yourself by getting out, doing Jewish things with other Jews, getting involved, et cetera. However good the online program might be, that's impossible to do if you're in the wilds of Alaska or something.

Judaism is a community religion. We don't place a lot of theological value on ascetics or hermits, and a lot of the mitzvot require having other people there with you. It sucks to realize that when you're someone dying to convert and stuck in a place with no Jews, but I think in the long run, it's better to go through the conversion experience as an active member of a Jewish community. In the case of Orthodoxy, that usually means moving to a major metropolitan area (or Israel).

And Florence Henderson, I agree, your SIL is a Jew. I don't think this rash of conversion revocations is remotely halachic, and I don't think it even has any historical basis. If someone is sincere at the time of their beit din (i.e. not deliberately hiding a belief in Jesus/Yeshua, not actively planning to abandon Jewish observance and/or pick up another religion, et cetera), it's valid. Period. If someone stops being observant later, that doesn't automatically mean that they weren't a sincere convert. The whole situation regarding conversions in general and the yanking of Orthodox conversions in particular makes me really angry.

[thoughtful]

Faustian Slip, I adore your "Put the Han back in Hanukah" avatar!

[FaustianSlip]

Heh, thanks! It seemed about the right time of year to break it out. I wish I could find a bigger version to use as my Facebook picture, but there's no good, larger ones, it seems.

[kemme]

Fixed that for you. That's not just an Orthodox thing- it applies across all Jewish denominations (except maybe Renewal? I don't know enough about them to say).

Thanks :p I'm more well versed in Orthodoxy, so I didn't want to generalize in case it wasn't true for all.