New interview with Vyckie from NLQ

[ppmath]

I worked for a while for a guy who was always in salesman mode. He was trying to sell his company, his products, and himself all the time, even to his own employees and his own family. For example, if there was a job that one of us had to go do he would tell us how great it was going to be and try to get us psyched to go out there and do it. After a while of knowing him, he sorta seemed like a huckster or a grifter, even though he was running a legit company.

That's kinda how Vyckie seems to me. She's a salesperson, whether she's selling patriarchy or the NLQ scene.

I kinda feel like even when she's posting about something terrible she's still trying to sell something.

Whatever happened to Laura? Why did she vanish?

IIRC, Laura got remarried and moved somewhere else. I think she also stopped blogging because her children lived with their dad and she realized that putting these things out on the internet may not be best for them. She posted something about a year ago giving a little update that she was happy married to her new husband and the healing between her children and herself was slowly progressing.

[fundiefan]

There is something about Vyckie that makes me uncomfortable. I'm not sure what it is, but I don't particularly like her. I'm sure she is providing good information for those wanting to leave as she did and all that, but personally, I'm not impressed with her and something seems off. Of course I am judging from a distance and don't know anything, but my impression of her based on what I've read isn't a positive one.

[Rosa]

The thing is, you don't have to be a saint to do good work. In a lot of movements, the people in the lead are a little "off" - because who else is going to devote that much of their life to changing things for other people?

I mean, look at the QF leaders - aside from the Duggars, who are pretty telegenic, most of these folks come off as awkward, to say the least, and downright alien (who's the womb-man lady? She is creepy as all getout). The same is true of a lot of political groups (I have done work with an anti-police-violence activist who has the worst social skills of anyone I've ever known in real life).

[Muffy]

Something about Vyckie doesn't sit well with me, either. While I appreciate the attention she's drawn to the abuses of patriarchy, I've always thought there was a sort of whiny quality to her writing, and to the aspects of her story that she has chosen to share.

I followed NLQ from the beginning, reading each chapter of Vyckie's story as she posted it. On the one hand, I found her journey through patriarchy fascinating and would eagerly check to see if she'd published the next installment yet. On the other hand...well...something about the way she depicted her marriage seemed "off." The entire time, I kept wondering what in the world had attracted her to her husband (Warren) in the first place. As she depicted him, both through photos and her words, he was woefully unattractive and clearly had what seemed like major social and relational issues long before they ever dabbled in patriarchy.

While it's easy to see how the patriarchal teachings would have compounded their problems, it has always bugged me that Vyckie has never seemed to acknowledge how, if Warren were truly as she has described him, she should never have gone out with him in the first place...let alone go to so much trouble to have all those children with him. For all the thousands and thousands of words she would write in each of her installments, I never once could catch a glimpse of what would motivate a smart woman (like Vyckie clearly thinks she is) to want to be with Warren. So it seemed quite unfair of her to blame a particular ideology for the breakdown of their family - I got the sense that Vyckie and Warren probably would have been miserable together whether they were patriarchalists, nominal Christians, or downright atheists.

Like others here have said, it would probably have been a good idea for Vyckie to have waited with launching her anti-patriarchy crusade until she'd reached a place where she had better perspective and would be able to see more clearly which of her issues should be blamed on the system, and which of her issues would have been with her to some degree no matter what.

(On a random note, I have always found all the personal photos of Vyckie's kids on the NLQ site to be off-putting, for reasons I can't quite put into words.

I also wish she'd quit overusing the "~." But that's just me.)

[Pearl]

I don't like the fact that she posts pictures of her kids or even that she talks poorly about her kids father on the net. I know she's doing a "good deed," but I just can't wrap my head around the fact that she has put down and denigrated her children's father in a place where they would be able to see it. If her kids were grown, I probably wouldn't have such an issue - but quite a few of them are still young - and I don't know - it just seems to put them out there unprotected from internet world.

My ex was awful, but I don't put him down in a place where my kids could see it (I don't post by name, I try not to post anything that could specifically post back to me - and I try not to post a lot about it). Everything she wrote about her husband was in a snide awful manner. When I think back on my life with my ex I feel sad because we did have good times - but for her they were all about what a martyr she was blah blah blahcakes.

I was never really impressed with her - I didn't think she was all that - but the way everyone on the forum seemed to bow and scrape and hang on to her every word - it just bothered me. I think she likes the adulation and knows how to garner "prestige" out of the small ponds she chooses to swim in.

[valsa]

I don't like that Vyckie always seemed to think she's more intelligent than she really is. I'm not saying she's not intelligent, just that she's got more pride than her intellect deserves.

Yet at the same time, she is always trying to justify the outright dumb decisions she made while making it seem like she didn't realize how dumb they were. I think that's to cover up that everything she did was on purpose, not the result of bad decisions. I honestly don't get the feeling that Vyckie was brainwashed, like some of the other ex-QF women we've heard from. I think she made a conscious decision to pursue a lifestyle that glorified her (without making her do a bunch of tedious things like housekeeping and childcare (which she could pawn off on the daughter she already had)) and that the QF lifestyle appealed to her ego.

As to why I think why her relationship with Warren always seemed "off", it actually doesn't seem all that strange to me. I think she needs to be in control, so she married herself a dumb guy with a disability that would require he rely on her a great deal. It got even better when she got into QF. She needed a husband to live the lifestyle, but Warren was never going to be able to act as a true "head" with all his problems. She was in complete control, while maintaining only the outward appearance of submission.

But mostly, I have a problem with the fact she disrespected a war hero in one of the chapters of her story. She's done good things with NLQ, but I don't like her as a person.

[bananacat]

I don't like the fact that she posts pictures of her kids or even that she talks poorly about her kids father on the net. I know she's doing a "good deed," but I just can't wrap my head around the fact that she has put down and denigrated her children's father in a place where they would be able to see it. If her kids were grown, I probably wouldn't have such an issue - but quite a few of them are still young - and I don't know - it just seems to put them out there unprotected from internet world.

My ex was awful, but I don't put him down in a place where my kids could see it (I don't post by name, I try not to post anything that could specifically post back to me - and I try not to post a lot about it). Everything she wrote about her husband was in a snide awful manner. When I think back on my life with my ex I feel sad because we did have good times - but for her they were all about what a martyr she was blah blah blahcakes.

I was never really impressed with her - I didn't think she was all that - but the way everyone on the forum seemed to bow and scrape and hang on to her every word - it just bothered me. I think she likes the adulation and knows how to garner "prestige" out of the small ponds she chooses to swim in.

I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out abuse when it happens. And Warren sure was abusive. There is no good reason to keep that a secret, except for the abuser's benefit. This isn't about some spiteful divorced woman who just wants to make her ex look bad. The man was abusive and there's no reason to hide that, and there's also no reason that the kids should be embarrassed or ashamed of it.

[Muffy]

As to why I think why her relationship with Warren always seemed "off", it actually doesn't seem all that strange to me. I think she needs to be in control, so she married herself a dumb guy with a disability that would require he rely on her a great deal. It got even better when she got into QF. She needed a husband to live the lifestyle, but Warren was never going to be able to act as a true "head" with all his problems. She was in complete control, while maintaining only the outward appearance of submission.

This!

Wow, that's exactly it.

Like I said, I don't doubt that the Quiverfull movement contributed to the bad dynamic that existed. If a guy had it in him to be as weirdly nitpicky and abusive as Warren was in the stories Vyckie shares, I can imagine that buying into an ideology that gives him ultimate authority and makes him king of his castle would only exacerbate and legitimize his tyrant tendencies.

But in Vyckie's situation, it honestly sounded like her frustrations arose because Warren wasn't doing a better job at conforming to the role she had laid out for him. The problem wasn't so much the patriarchal system - it was Warren's inability to become the patriarch Vyckie wanted.

[Muffy]

Also, while I'd agree with bananacat that there's nothing wrong with talking openly about an abusive person, I think it's the lack of balance in Vyckie's depiction of Warren that will be confusing to their kids.

If Vyckie were as smart as she likes to portray herself, then certainly Warren had to have SOME redeeming qualities, SOMETHING that would make him attractive to her, SOMETHING that would make her continue to want to have children with him. Yet in all her thousands and thousands of words, I can't recall much of anything that helped me understand why she liked him in the first place. In her descriptions, Warren comes across as unattractive, needy, and downright weird, as well as abusive.

Such a one-sided portrayal can't be helpful to her kids, especially since they still spend significant chunks of time with him.

[Pearl]

@Muffy, My husband said the same thing when I was discussing NLQ with him. My ex was abusive, but I can think of things about him that made me fall in love with him in the first place. I can remember the surprise I felt when I realized how awful our life together was going to be. Vycki always came across as some weary martyr that had to put up with the bumbling idiot that was Warren, who was not as intelligent as she was and thus had to be taught (by Vyckie) about how he should behave. I bet her husband would have been happier just being allowed to be himself. If he hadn't been an evil jerk to her eldest daughter (I can't remember if he abused his bio children), I probably would have doubted Vyckie's story after a while.

Anyhow, there is being honest about abuse and then there is being TMI about it. She has plastered photos of her children, given the real name of her ex (I'm pretty sure it's his real name - if I'm wrong, forgive me), and described her life in minute detail. I'm honest about my abuse - but try to - temper where I talk about what has happened to me because of my children. When they are grown, I might choose to be more specific - or maybe I won't. This is my opinion of course - and everyone has their own comfort level with posting info about their children and lives on the internet. :)

[Witsec6]

Actually, I think we are observing the same thing, although from a slightly different point of view. If I get your meaning, interpretation occurs when a certain concensus of people define a passage a particular way. Anthoer group may interpret the word in a completely different way. Both groups think that they are right. Both think they have a grasp of the word of God.

Ultimately though, words are human constructs. Either you believe in God or you have your doubts. The Bible may be inspired by God or not. But religious texts are written by humans, and as such open to interpretation.

However, if you believe that the words of the texts are actually written by God. Then there is no room for interpretation. The text should be taken quite literally. (You know, because the almighty crafted every word.)

After 50 years of batting this around in my head, I have concluded that all of the known religious text were written by folks with a big head and a little head. The big head is completely at the mercy of the little head. So women serve two related purposes. One is to please men. The other is to make more humans.

Oh my. I have just reduced religion to penis worship. :shock:

LOL!

I would like to continue to meander off the topic to say that mainline denominations tend to allow for the fact that the Bible is not actually a book, and it was not actually written by God. It is a collection of texts (generally poetic and scholarly works) that was decided upon by a council of Bishops as what is core and most representative of the system of beliefs known as Christianity (and even then, some of the contents are disputed). Christianity predates the Bible, so it is impossible for the original practice of Christianity to actually be based on the literal interpretation of the Bible.

Re. Vyckie: I have read NLQ and been interested in a lot of the content (particularly the story of the ex-Hare Krishna!), but I never heard about this feud with her daughter. I agree with those who have said she isn't a very good writer. She certainly doesn't have a good grasp of punctuation rules. I don't know much about the content of her character, though.

[Wendy]

NLQ was fascinating, in part, because Vyckie experienced her recovery in front of God and everybody (as they say in the south). Up until about a year ago the blog felt authentic to me, if exhibitionist. I could even forgive a lot of the TMI, which seemed naive rather than exploitive.

Disclaimer: If I had a blog and became notable, I would almost certainly go full stupid.

[Juliakitty]

I joined Free Jinger mostly because I want to figure out about the Vyckie and Angel thing. I liked Vyckie's blog. Yes, there was an awful lot of TMI and airing super-personal stuff on the Internet, but I liked it. I like Angel's blog, too. If Aaron supposedly did something bad, I don't understand why someone doesn't get to the bottom of it and figure out what really happened. The she said-she said is really weirding me out.

[Ozzie]

I've long been perplexed by the Vyckie-Angel drama. I hope they both find some peace, but both appear to be so far under the drama water they might never recover. :(

[FlorenceHamilton]

"I would like to continue to meander off the topic to say that mainline denominations tend to allow for the fact that the Bible is not actually a book, and it was not actually written by God. It is a collection of texts (generally poetic and scholarly works) that was decided upon by a council of Bishops as what is core and most representative of the system of beliefs known as Christianity (and even then, some of the contents are disputed). Christianity predates the Bible, so it is impossible for the original practice of Christianity to actually be based on the literal interpretation of the Bible."

Christianity predates the New Testament. The Old Testament predates Christianity. It was filled with patriarchy/penis worship. Early Christians followed the Old Testament as did the Hebrews. They had Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, as well as writings that the Hebrews considered Apocryphal and the Early Christinans Biblical before the New Testament was invented.

[Rosa]

Ozzie, it seems like Angel's taken off to the Navy and getting un-enmeshed from her family. I can't even imagine getting over the drama if you had a big family and lived in a really small town- you'd see them everywhere.

[Muffy]

Did Angel and her fiance ever end up getting married? I only tracked with some of the dispute between her and Vyckie. (As best I could understand, one of Angel's sisters accused the fiance of some sexually inappropriate behavior...molestation?...but Angel disputed that, and then Vyckie disputed Angel, calling her entire character into question.)

[liltwinstar]

I have a hard time with the NLQ site. I like the survivor stories (they help me feel like I'm not alone/crazy), but honestly, I don't read Vickie's stuff. I wish her well, like all survivors of patrio abuse, but her writing just doesn't resonate with me.

I *do* totally understand the rejection of the Bible/Christianity, though, since that's where I am myself. After 20+ years of indoctrination, I'm just...done with it. I do realize that Jesus was pretty cool and He taught some stuff that is pretty counter-cultural (both for His time and ours!), but I just...can't get into it again, you know? All of Christian language makes me very uncomfortable; even the posts on this thread where people are debating what the "scriptures" say makes me leery. Not because I think there's bad intent, it's just that my brain is so DONE with those kinds of debates. I think of myself as a dog sometimes - if you constantly beat a dog with your hand, over and over, soon it will cower from all people, regardless of intent. I feel like I got smacked by God over and over, so why would I want to have anything to do with him now? Even though the "real" god may be loving and compassionate, I've been so hurt by "god" that I want nothing to do with him.

It's weird, when I was Christian and we would talk about people being "lost" or "wordly" or having a "God shaped hole in their lives" I imagined that living without God/religion would make me miserable. And it doesn't - I'm so happy now, and I literally never thought that I *could* be this happy with my life. I thought life was all about pain and suffering until you get to heaven and get to be happy. And it turns out, life can be beautiful and wonderful, and I'm incredibly grateful (to the universe? God? the Goddess? whatever!) for that knowledge and for the life I have.

[MerryHappy]

Not a huge fan of Vyckie.

1. I find her "speshul snowflake" syndrome annoying as hell.

2. Her treatment of Angel was horrifying.

I regret that Vyckie is the face of the anti-QF cult movement. I prefer to see someone a bit more stable at the helm.

[Nothing2CHere]

Did Angel and her fiance ever end up getting married? I only tracked with some of the dispute between her and Vyckie. (As best I could understand, one of Angel's sisters accused the fiance of some sexually inappropriate behavior...molestation?...but Angel disputed that, and then Vyckie disputed Angel, calling her entire character into question.)

Yes, they had a legal ceremony last year (I think it was July), something to do with her entering the Navy and for legal reasons if they didn't get married then, they'd have to wait longer than they had originally planned, and then they had their originally planned traditional ceremony last - October, I think (I regularly read her blog - I think she's interesting 8-) ). Her blog is angelreneene.blogspot.com. She's out of bootcamp now and posting again.

[raineymott]

I also wish she'd quit overusing the "~." But that's just me.)

ME TOO!!! I NEVER use that character anymore because of her!

Not surprisingly, Vyckie is quite verbose. Can't she ever make a point in less than 10,000 words?

She's lost some street cred as far as I'm concerned. Her family is still messed up, and don't think she can continue to blame this on her escape from their patriarchal lifestyle.

Just had to say LOL and um, YEAH...she's an adult, she shouldn't blame EVERYTHING on everyone else...I mean come ON! She had a normal life before patriarchy, right?

---

And my 2¢ about her/her blog...I friended her on Facebook, and when I friended Angel, Vyckie unfriended me. I thought it was rather petty.

And also, I've got her blog in my feed reader...I don't read ALL the posts, and never read the ones by Vyckie. xD

[ppmath]

ME TOO!!! I NEVER use that character anymore because of her!

Just had to say LOL and um, YEAH...she's an adult, she shouldn't blame EVERYTHING on everyone else...I mean come ON! She had a normal life before patriarchy, right?

---

And my 2¢ about her/her blog...I friended her on Facebook, and when I friended Angel, Vyckie unfriended me. I thought it was rather petty.

And also, I've got her blog in my feed reader...I don't read ALL the posts, and never read the ones by Vyckie. xD

I'm not a huge fan of Vyckie's, but I think she's had a hard life and it's fair to say that no, she didn't have a "normal" life before patriarchy, and that's part of why she has a difficult relationship with Angel even after she got out of patriarchy. I don't think she has a a clue about normal, but I hope she can work her way there.

[Brainsample]

I read enough about people's personal account to get the basic framework of where they're coming from. Even with Lewis over at thecommandmentsofmen.blogspot.com, I don't feel comfortable knowing all those details if I know their basic story. (I don't get a lot of the public story angle and put my own shortened version up by request. And it's almost hidden away and must look to find it.) I read enough to get the rough picture and then end up forgetting most of the details. I don't want to know too many.

But you do take a risk when you go public. Raising teenage daughters, being a mom (period!), getting out of a bad marriage, rethinking your religious beliefs, ect... Those things are tough enough without the public scrutiny. I can't imagine why people want to go through the initial work of getting through these trying times in front of the world, especially if there were problems. You can't go back to delete these things, even when you can delete a blog post, trying to hide the dirty socks and undies from view. They're already out there!

Even people who plaster pictures of their kids out there all over the place have taken a risk. Those pictures can be misused. So can the general information. What if you end up with a mentally unbalanced kid and those photos set them reeling? But that's my pre-internet life talking.

I'm glad that much good has come out of No Longer Quivering and that it is not hostile to Christians. It's turned out to be a nice effort, overall.

[Crackedeggs]

Whoever said that she's selling anti-patriarchy as vehemently as she sold patriarchy hit it spot on the nose.

I almost submitted my story to her. She was pretty interested in it. However, I decided it wasn't in my kids best interest - or mine. I'm pretty glad I did.

Regarding talking about your kids, posting pics, etc - I think some of this, for us older netizens, is a natural extension of when the internet was a lot smaller, more personal, "safer" in our own minds. I've been part of communities that may no longer have their net home, but continue in Facebook land, where we know the most intimate of things about each other, but have only ever seen pictures. Some of us have met up... and a fair number have paired up, married, had kids. I'm one of the paired ups.

Yeah, I can get pretty personal on a message board post with an anon. handle. It's a 20 year habit for me, really - takes the place of my passed away mom and far away and far to busy sisters. But.. I NEVER got into blogging - it was like selling my life, my kid.. for what... the crap money you make from ad posts and sidebars? I know some folks make a fair amount at it, but I just don't see the point in it, my ideas are not so novel, so new, that I could be worthy of a whole magazine by, for and about.. ME. it strikes me as the utmost in narcissism - for me to do it, I mean. A lot of these ladies with their lil christian havens should consider how self centered they come off as.