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Tokyo Olympics


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Today marks the 2 week countdown - is anyone else planning on tuning in?

I’m so excited that the time difference is insignificant this time - I’m usually setting alarms through the night for my favourite events ?

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I will probably see bits, although from the 2008 Beijing Olympics I see less of events than when they're in really awkward timezones due to work getting in the way. 2012 I saw a lot thanks to having to be up expressing at stupid times. Rio I have no recollection of, not sure what happened there...

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Nope,  i will not watch. This is going to be a poo poo show of epic proportions in regards to it becoming a super spreader event. Japan has not a got a high vaccination rate, in fact most of the world has not. These games should have been cancelled a long time ago, or at best have been held 'virtually' by zoom. I pity the Japanese public that has to put up with these shenaningans of pretend normal. The oceans burns, towns spontaneously combust, but here have a bit of elite sport to entertain the masses.  

(end rant)

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@sabine - they've now said - No fans/spectators allowed for Tokyo Olympics. 

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The olympics is usually the only time I turn on my actual TV at all, so I might possibly watch some of it. Maybe. I missed the last winter olympics somehow.

I might, however, just look for whatever bits get posted online eventually. I get super annoyed with the coverage of the Olympics here in the US. Like, Simone Biles is absolutely amazing and yes please show everything she does, but I'd like to see more than JUST that. Like get out of the way and show the whole competition. I want to see the up and comers from other countries, too. Simone is more impressive if you see her competitors as well, I think. And where the heck is Rhythmic Gymnastics? 

The last several Olympics I've watched have seemed like "America's best athletes, starring America... and some other countries maybe but mostly America!" Like it just cuts between the USA athletes and skips almost all of the people from other countries unless they have a "feel good" story of some sort to grab interest or get injured badly. It's like 75% USA, 20% Bob Costas (he's finally done now, isn't he?), 3% stories about the area, and 2% athletes from other countries. 

I suppose if I had cable or satellite instead of just network coverage it'd be better. Rhythmic Gymnastics is probably on ESPN7 or something. So it might be online watching for me this time.

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2 hours ago, Alisamer said:

The olympics is usually the only time I turn on my actual TV at all, so I might possibly watch some of it. Maybe. I missed the last winter olympics somehow.

I might, however, just look for whatever bits get posted online eventually. I get super annoyed with the coverage of the Olympics here in the US. Like, Simone Biles is absolutely amazing and yes please show everything she does, but I'd like to see more than JUST that. Like get out of the way and show the whole competition. I want to see the up and comers from other countries, too. Simone is more impressive if you see her competitors as well, I think. And where the heck is Rhythmic Gymnastics? 

The last several Olympics I've watched have seemed like "America's best athletes, starring America... and some other countries maybe but mostly America!" Like it just cuts between the USA athletes and skips almost all of the people from other countries unless they have a "feel good" story of some sort to grab interest or get injured badly. It's like 75% USA, 20% Bob Costas (he's finally done now, isn't he?), 3% stories about the area, and 2% athletes from other countries. 

I suppose if I had cable or satellite instead of just network coverage it'd be better. Rhythmic Gymnastics is probably on ESPN7 or something. So it might be online watching for me this time.

I agree.  I hate that they keep trying to find "human interest" stores about the athletes instead of just showing the damn sports. As someone living in the US, the best coverage I ever saw of the Olympics was when we had access to Canadian Broadcasting via satellite dish. 

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I won't be watching because the Olympic committee is allowing men to compete unfairly in women's sports. There are already two male athletes who have stolen spots from women of color who were next in line to make the team. Depressing and shameful destruction of women's sports.

https://savewomenssports.com/laurel-hubbard

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9 hours ago, clueliss said:

@sabine - they've now said - No fans/spectators allowed for Tokyo Olympics. 

and there are still some several thousand people there, athletes, coaches, medical staff etc etc etc. It should not happen. Good grief, are we not learning anything? 

Funny thing is, if the world had collectively shut down for three month last year we might have had a chance at eliminating this virus, but we did not - for various reasons. And here we are 2021 and we insist in Olympics without spectators,  fret about people not getting vaccinations while saying little about the people that WANT the vaccinations but can't get them because they are not delivered / produced fast enough, while some nations are stockpiling and destroying unused vaccinations and so on and so forth. 

The Olympics this year is nothing more then show of bullshittery and greed. The people of Japan are damned, their wishes are damned, their safety is damned, all that in the name of some sponsors and people who think they are entitled to have these games cause in four years time they be to old. Greed. Money. Greed. Money. Olympics 2021. The winner? Covid - and all its variants, on spot 1, 2 and three. 

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7 hours ago, Alisamer said:

The olympics is usually the only time I turn on my actual TV at all, so I might possibly watch some of it. Maybe. I missed the last winter olympics somehow.

I might, however, just look for whatever bits get posted online eventually. I get super annoyed with the coverage of the Olympics here in the US. Like, Simone Biles is absolutely amazing and yes please show everything she does, but I'd like to see more than JUST that. Like get out of the way and show the whole competition. I want to see the up and comers from other countries, too. Simone is more impressive if you see her competitors as well, I think. And where the heck is Rhythmic Gymnastics? 

The last several Olympics I've watched have seemed like "America's best athletes, starring America... and some other countries maybe but mostly America!" Like it just cuts between the USA athletes and skips almost all of the people from other countries unless they have a "feel good" story of some sort to grab interest or get injured badly. It's like 75% USA, 20% Bob Costas (he's finally done now, isn't he?), 3% stories about the area, and 2% athletes from other countries. 

I suppose if I had cable or satellite instead of just network coverage it'd be better. Rhythmic Gymnastics is probably on ESPN7 or something. So it might be online watching for me this time.

I agree. The “rah-rah America is unbeatable (except by nasty countries which are probably Communist)” theme gets old fast. I enjoy seeing athletes from other countries (especially those who don’t have a chance at a medal but are heroes in their own country just for qualifying), as well as non-marquee sports. I’ll probably catch most of the gymnastics and equestrian events after the fact on YouTube. 

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It's not like the Olympics have not been cancelled before:  The Summer Olympics were cancelled in 1916 due to the Great War and the Olympics from 1940 and 1944 cancelled due to WWII.  Surely, a worldwide pandemic was reason enough to cancel the games until 2024.  

Esther Williams had been selected to be on the US Swim team for the 1940 games. And thee were some great track athletes who lost their prime years of competition due to WWII.  I'm thinking of Sydney Wooderson, the great British track star, who held the mile world record of 4:06.4 in 1937 and ran a 4:04.2 immediately after the war in 1945.   I'm not sure if either of those athletes minded very much missing the Olympics during the war.  Some things are just more important that the Damn Olympics!

 

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11 hours ago, FrumpyAtheist said:

I won't be watching because the Olympic committee is allowing men to compete unfairly in women's sports. There are already two male athletes who have stolen spots from women of color who were next in line to make the team. Depressing and shameful destruction of women's sports.

https://savewomenssports.com/laurel-hubbard

I have my doubts about the fairness of letting transgender athletes that transitioned after adolescence compete against women. BUT insulting and dimishing her calling her a man is just disgustingly transphobic. And judging her looks as not femmine enough as is implied in the linked content is too reminiscent of the way this argument has been used against women of all kinds since time immemorial to deter them from violating oppressive gender rules.

Edited by laPapessaGiovanna
Correction
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I understand some don't share my belief in the objective, biological reality that humans cannot change sex. Calling a trans-identified man a man isn't meant to demean or insult; it's simply a statement of fact, and an important one when it comes to sports where the permanent biological advantages of having gone through male puberty are important and need to be addressed openly and honestly if fairness in women's sports is to be preserved.

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5 minutes ago, FrumpyAtheist said:

I understand some don't share my belief in the objective, biological reality that humans cannot change sex. Calling a trans-identified man a man isn't meant to demean or insult; it's simply a statement of fact, and an important one when it comes to sports where the permanent biological advantages of having gone through male puberty are important and need to be addressed openly and honestly if fairness in women's sports is to be preserved.

If you need to call it belief then it's not an objective biological reality.

But I got it, you have toxic TERF beliefs and there's no point in discussing this any further.

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I believe the earth is round and gravity is universal too. 

My subjective belief in those doesn't make them any less real. 

Framing it that way does mean I respect your right *not* to believe it though. I still respect you as a person even if you believe the earth is flat. 

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1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

If you need to call it belief then it's not an objective biological reality.

But I got it, you have toxic TERF beliefs and there's no point in discussing this any further.

Huh. And yet, you're the only one on the thread resorting to disrespectful language and dismissive slurs. Yet I'm the "toxic" one. Hmm. 

Women's rights and reality will always be worth discussing to me, regardless of how badly and rudely people respond.

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It's not a slur, it's a fact that you espouse trans exclusionary beliefs. As a radical feminist myself I find offensive that so-called feminists demand to be allowed to discriminate against some women while claiming to do so to defend other women's supposed superior rights. We are all women and we all have rights. There aren't, or there shouldn't be, women more equal than others.

And before you start screaming "BUT THE CREEPS who want to go to the females bathroom" (as someone who lives in a country where often bathrooms are indifferentiated it makes zero sense, but still), that's a problem caused by the fucking CREEPS to ALL women. Discriminating against some women and refusing to extend to them the protections we think women need in certain circumstances won't make the creeps go away, on the contrary it will make it easier for creeps to prey on these women.

I suspect that this argument stems from the bigoted, judgy and badly concealed disgust some people have towards trans women's bodies. It's something I don't understand. Why after all the efforts and the campaigns to promote body positivity are some people so scared of women's bodies not being all alike? Why are we still judging some women's bodies as not feminine enough?

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12 hours ago, FrumpyAtheist said:

I understand some don't share my belief in the objective, biological reality that humans cannot change sex. Calling a trans-identified man a man isn't meant to demean or insult; it's simply a statement of fact, and an important one when it comes to sports where the permanent biological advantages of having gone through male puberty are important and need to be addressed openly and honestly if fairness in women's sports is to be preserved.

*sigh* 

I don't believe I'm entering a good faith conversation, but I'll bite for the sake of other readers who might have more open minds and hearts. 

Let's break this down, though not in order;

"Calling a trans-identified man isn't meant to demean or insult."

See, I have a hard time believing this. Mostly because if you do this about sports, I suspect you do it everywhere else and the fact of the matter is most trans women aren't Olympic athletes because...most people in the world aren't. Why would you do this trans women minding their own business? My friends? My colleagues? Why would you do this to trans women who are loved and accepted by cis women in their lives, except to hurt them? Because I know you know that it hurts people. You seem to want to bring this up when it isn't called for and either you enjoy hurting folks or there is something deep inside you that makes you need to lash out unprovoked towards a marginalized group. So strange.

"Biological reality that humans cannot change sex."

*big sigh in science PhD* 
Sex is a complicated thing in humans. It's governed by several things that may or may not align in any given person. Most of them you can't see. In fact, this is a kind of argument that's getting Caster Semenya disqualified for "not qualifying as a woman" although she's a cis-woman. I am begging you to understand that TERF (*not a slur - but we can talk about that) arguments are hurting women who aren't fitting a narrow definition of woman.  I've gone off track here but the vitriol towards Lauren with no care to protect Caster's and Christine's Beatrice's right to run is absurd. I mean, I hope you'd agree right -- they should be allowed to run, RIGHT? 

But, being transgender isn't all about sex. Parts of it are. The impacts of HRT. But it's also about gender. And if it were only about sex, you wouldn't be so concerned about words like "man" or "woman" because these are words that mean gender.

"permanent biological advantages"

Honestly, I think we need more study on this because there are relatively few people doing good work on HRT impacts, but from my experience, most of the "advantages" of testosterone are erased by HRT. Trans women report incredibly diminished strength after relatively short periods of HRT, which honestly makes a lot of sense. 

And finally, the insistence on doing this is baffling to me as somebody who knows and loves transgender people. They are my friends, my colleagues. I feel safe with them. I sleep over at their houses and we eat ice cream out of the pint together and play Animal Crossing. One friend, she's beautiful to the point that I felt compelled to paint her in watercolor one night. She didn't ask, she just posted a selfie and I couldn't help myself -- I had to paint! One is a mentor, somebody I look up to, she's full of energy and a great teacher and ambitious. Another friend is younger than me, not by much, but enough that I said to my partner (before we all knew that Christmas would be a COVID surge), 'If her family won't have her home, she's doing Christmas with us. She's my daughter now, as far as I'm concerned.' The reason I don't understand TERFS, honestly, is because it feels like y'all have never met a trans woman because all the talking points about them are caricatures. Or, if you have me them, you've never had enough openness to know them. Certainly, you wouldn't like all of them -- I don't like all of any catergory of people I've met, but still, baffling. Putting walls and boundaries like this on womanhood will only hurt other women, as we've seen in the case of Semenya, for example. (And, it will hurt especially women of color because gender culture is very much linked to overall culture.)

For the rest of you, if FA insists on linking to biased sources, I will too. But, I think my sources are a little bit better. A varied reading/watching list for you all;

Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity by Julia Serano. (For note, Serano has a PhD in Biology with a focus on hormones. She is also a transwoman. If you are interested in the intersection of sex and gender, she is a good source by both life experience and education.) This book is long and academic, and it took me, a person with a lot of pre-existing knowledge, over a year to read but really don't be afraid -- the chapters are short, break it down, take it a page at a time. 

Videos from Natalie Wynn/Contrapoints - As Contrapoints, Wynn has done a lot of work de-radicalizing folks, especially trying to prevent the alt-right-radicalization online. She is a trans woman. I've picked some of her videos on gender here but I should say she has good work in philosophy in general;

J.K. Rowling - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gDKbT_l2us
Gender Critical (That's for you!) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pTPuoGjQsI
Autogynephilia - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6czRFLs5JQo

Videos from Abigail Thorn/Philosophy Tube - Thorn is a transwoman, a friend of Wynns, and my go-to source for Philosophy Videos about well...honestly, boring ass philosophy. I've been watching Thorn since before her transition because I just like to hear about speeches in the Roman Senate, okay? I wanna hear about Hegel's dialectics or whatever! I don't agree with everything she said when she came out, but some of that might because of US/UK cultural differences. In any case, I've loved her work for a long time. 

Identity: Trans a Coming Out Story - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AITRzvm0Xtg
Queer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hi6j2UXEZM
Social Constructs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koud7hgGyQ8

Wandering Son- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandering_Son 
Wow this is just an anime/manga. What a cool reading list to have comics! It's good. It has gender ideas. It's from Japan, so it fits the Olympic Locations so it fits board topics! (Please give me a gold medal in gymnastics for that stretch, thanks!) 

Anyway, TERF isn't a slur because it defines a set of beliefs. Trans exclusionary radical feminism is exactly what's going on here. And honestly, even if you in good faith believe that putting boundaries and lines and strict definitions is something that can help women, all evidence points to the fact that those definitions and boundaries only come back to bite cis women too. It's a foolish path towards liberation and a foolish path that is incredibly hurtful and dangerous and toxic to both the people it identifies to attack and the people who are consuming it, drinking up a rotten philosophy like a poison. 

 

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14 hours ago, Foudeb said:

I believe the earth is round and gravity is universal too. 

My subjective belief in those doesn't make them any less real.

Honest question from ESL Person here.

To believe/belief is consistently translated as credere/credo in my language. When I use "credere" in Italian I imply that I am convinced of something without proof, as an act of faith. Is it the same in english regarding the concept of "believing"?

I would never use the concept of "credere" referring to scientifically demonstrated truths, because if something is scientifically demonstrated there's proof of it being real. I don't need an act of faith to be convinced that something is real if you show me proof.

Some people, most notably no-vaxxers, do use the word "credere" about science, but that's simply because they don't understand how science works or because they are trying to put scientifically demonstrated facts on the same level as their undemonstrated convictions.

Anyway I interpreted the concept of "belief" as "conviction without proof" and I am curious to know if I was wrong. If that's the case it was an honest mistake on my part.

Edited by laPapessaGiovanna
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I wasn’t going to dip my toe into this fustercluck because in terms of sport and trans competitors I have read and read and read and still can’t come to a conclusion. It’s very complicated.

In terms of sport testing and science, testosterone levels are set for competitors by the IOC at 10nmol/L. This is actually quite high - Caster Semenya (not trans but intersex) ran into trouble because it was set at 5nmol/L at that time. There is much more to the debate than that, I just don’t think it’s worth discussing here because I don’t think the original commenter came into this thread in good faith. It is disgusting to misgender someone on purpose. Laurel Hubbard is a woman. She has lost championships to cis women previously and is not expected to medal at the Olympics. The issue here is not whether the competition is ‘fair’, but is being taken as an opportunity to spout transphobic views.

I’ll discuss the Olympics elsewhere, this thread has been successfully derailed and I’ll leave it up to the better informed members to clean up the shit on the rug. I’m out. I just wanted to talk about swimming, running and gymnastics.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@adidas,  can you direct me to a more recent Olympics thread?  I have been watching docs on the Olympics in TCM all day.  Now they are showing a Japanese documentary about the Games in Tokyo in 1964.  I remember those games, but the only athlete I remembered well was Billy Mills,  the Oglala Lakota  runner that won the Gold in the Men's 10,000 Meters.  I do recall some athletes though when I read the wikipedia page on the '64 Olympics:  Bob Hayes (USA) Men's 100 M; Don Schollander (USA) , four Golds in swimming;  Dawn Fraser(AUS), third Gold in 100M freestyle in row (previously Mebourne and Rome)  Abele Bikila, (ETH), second Gold in Marathon after his Gold in Rome; and Joe Frazier (USA), Gold in Heavyweight Boxing, with a broken thumb nonetheless.

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