Here to Divulge... Lindvall, Pearl, VF, Phillips, Gothard, ATI/IBLP

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

10 hours ago, SrMaryEloquentia said:

Welcome, @Nolongeroppressed8.4 And thank you for taking the time to post here! 

Modest fashion bloggers were my gateway fundies, so I‘m really interested in ATI‘s very specific dress code. How did you perceive that at the time? And how did that work out practically? Where did you shop for clothes? What about brands? were you expected to sew your own skirts? Was there some sort of competition among the girls, and what would have made you „especially godly“?

Goodwill baby! The only place you could find no zipper no back pocket no slit baggy khaki skirts (because even Jean fabric wasn’t allowed by some.... there was a 60’s article that referenced rebellion and the new trend towards “dungarees.”). Shirts could not have writing. Basically ATI started gaining traction in the 80’s and the 80’s never left and became elevated to “more Godly.” Seriously watch a show from 80’s and it it is not pants or “immodest” it would have been seen at an ATI church/event. Girls at my church got in trouble for wearing knee high boots with a knee length skirt. If you wore anything above the knee there would have been a meeting. If it had a slit you were expected to pin it shut. T-shirt’s were not worn. Too masculine. If it was button up it had better be buttoned UP. If it was not loose or baggy it was eyebrow twitches across the board. 300 plus families y’all. To be outside the norm was to be ostracized. Even the “bad” girls were only so because they wore clothes barely on the edge. No pants ever. Didn’t matter if you were camping out in the forest or climbing a mountain with your “graduating class.” Sleeveless was frowned upon. I got a talking to for wearing a straight dress for Easter. Oh and my stiletto heels that were all of 3 inches high. The “best” “‘most good” of girls would have worn a loose triple fabric pleated skirt that came at least mid-calf with a white blouse with a big collar and at least one layer underneath and sensible shoes — I wish i was kidding when i day girls of 14-17 were wearing SAAS granny shoes proudly. Very few wore makeup, many were proud of the fact their hair had never been cut. Boys who were not allowed to speak to girls even in a public situation like greeting incomers as an usher. If a girl walks down the hallway towards you, turn and walk the other way. If you think I’m kidding......

 

[zcccrv]

7 minutes ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

Goodwill baby! The only place you could find no zipper no back pocket no slit baggy khaki skirts (because even Jean fabric wasn’t allowed by some.... there was a 60’s article that referenced rebellion and the new trend towards “dungarees.”). Shirts could not have writing. Basically ATI started gaining traction in the 80’s and the 80’s never left and became elevated to “more Godly.” Seriously watch a show from 80’s and it it is not pants or “immodest” it would have been seen at an ATI church/event. Girls at my church got in trouble for wearing knee high boots with a knee length skirt. If you wore anything above the knee there would have been a meeting. If it had a slit you were expected to pin it shut. T-shirt’s were not worn. Too masculine. If it was button up it had better be buttoned UP. If it was not loose or baggy it was eyebrow twitches across the board. 300 plus families y’all. To be outside the norm was to be ostracized. Even the “bad” girls were only so because they wore clothes barely on the edge. No pants ever. Didn’t matter if you were camping out in the forest or climbing a mountain with your “graduating class.” Sleeveless was frowned upon. I got a talking to for wearing a straight dress for Easter. Oh and my stiletto heels that were all of 3 inches high. The “best” “‘most good” of girls would have worn a loose triple fabric pleated skirt that came at least mid-calf with a white blouse with a big collar and at least one layer underneath and sensible shoes — I wish i was kidding when i day girls of 14-17 were wearing SAAS granny shoes proudly. Very few wore makeup, many were proud of the fact their hair had never been cut. Boys who were not allowed to speak to girls even in a public situation like greeting incomers as an usher. If a girl walks down the hallway towards you, turn and walk the other way. If you think I’m kidding......

 

In light of all these restrictions- what do you think about the modern clothing fundie twist in recent years? I'll use the Bates girls as an example but it's really across the board- the clothing has gotten much more wordly.

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

5 hours ago, DangerNoodle said:

holy shit! 

My biggest question has always been about the Botkins. As beautiful, well known, and rasied to be helpmets as they they were, why did they never marry? 

Thanks for joining!

Palimpsest and you get two birds with one stone. ?

Botkinettes are fully part of their family weird. They seem ALMOST on the edge, more modern clothing and wow nice earrings. But they are firmly planted in it all. Top to bottom inside and out. At least as of a few years ago. 

So here’s the cookie.... A friend who knew them said Natty Darnell first wanted to pursue Kelly B. Yes. Awhile before Petey plowed that field (along with some others who float around in the “not-natural” dimension, shall I put it). (Please year my sarcasm)

So Kelly B had to be foregone because from what my friend heard, his dad didn’t think Natty ready for marriage.

(we do agree on this eh???)

So a few years pass and then it came through the line that Natty was now in deep friendships with Botkins. Over for dinner. Hanging out. Lauding them all to any who would listen. And then there were letters to Daddybot. Daddybot requires college-level essays for suitors of his daughters so of course Mr.  Degree from a Fake-ish Online “College”  who didn’t pass the bar probably bumbled through (okay that part is hearsay but come on? Is it a far reach??) 

Months passed. And many essays and question airs (misspelling purposeful). 

Then it was heard that Natty had been approved!!!!!!!

The A-okay you may pursue my daughter. Oh by the way which daughter was it you were seeking?

”either one.”

You must pick one he was told (you’d think he would get the boot in the Arse at the “either one” part but my friend says he just got told he had to pick one of them so he told them which one .......

and it was the wrong one.

Friend says daughter *** liked him and was good to go, but he wanted daughter *** and stuck to his guns .... and that daughter was like meh. Plus who wants to be the girl who married a guy her sister likes when you don’t really?!

So Natty was sent away. If it had happened one more time it probably would have got him blackballed by the dads-with-daughters crowd like poor Bob Renaud..... decide not to hitch yourself for life to a girl you barely know and you must have something wrong with you!

So Natty has gone on to strongly pursue (bully?) at least two others since then .... thankfully it does not take them long to figure his toxic level is off the charts since this lifestyle also demands quick engagements!! 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, punkiepie said:

Do you have any info/stories about Kelly and Peter Bradrick?  As in, their divorce, what they are doing now, and anything about Kelly's new husband and marriage?  

Welcome to FJ!

All I know is divorce that quickly with kids (especially that many) is nigh impossible especially with full custody. Ashley Madison? Or was it worse.......asking for a friend. ? Seriously though. Y’all have seen the hugginess with hand holding and leg grasping and man stances that they all engage in — who finds the corners of dark closets more easily than those who point and scream “heresy”? Yes, I used the word closets. New husband probably unknown and likely to have been bribed — not that Kelly isn’t nice but let’s be real. No college or skills, 600 kids.... public scandal. Private shames. Of course dad is going to get her someone to take care of her — and how is that okay? Remarriage? Because of course, the reason for the divorce in the first place. ?

All speculation. Or is it?

[Maxwell]

8 minutes ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

So Natty was sent away. If it had happened one more time it probably would have got him blackballed by the dads-with-daughters crowd like poor Bob Renaud..... decide not to hitch yourself for life to a girl you barely know and you must have something wrong with you! 

Could you please elaborate on the Bob Renaud situation?  Admittedly, I had stopped following things when Bob disappeared from being DPIART's "personal assistant" was always a little puzzled as to what happened -- Bob seemed to be *the* right hand man and then suddenly, he wasn't...

[Maxwell]

43 minutes ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

I got angry that men get a pass to be porn-hounds, sex-fiends, aggressive or passive aggressive, mentally and/or spiritually abusive (and who knows, I know one VF man aka part of the San Antonio group who actually spanked his wife for insubordination in front of a guest ...)

I recall a story that alluded to a laptop/hard drive full of porn that went missing... any insights?

Any comments as to DPIART's propensity to make sexual/homoerotic remarks & then claim that it was the fault of the listener for hearing them that way?

That spanking story sounds like the same one told of RC Jr -- this is a different story NOT involving RC Jr.?

And lastly... could you comment on the VFM connection to ATI/IBLP?  I've always thought there was more to it than was let on but have been told that it was just coincidental as the two groups naturally overlapped a bit.  You're comments lead me to think that my suspicions are closer to the truth.

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

3 hours ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

while also preaching about how great it was his kids were not allowed to even be friends with each other

I've never heard of Lindvall ( not completely up on all my fundies)  --could you explain this a little.  Not allowed to be friends with your siblings?  Why is that a good and desirable thing?  Sounds totally wack 

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

2 hours ago, Maxwell said:

Could you please elaborate on the Bob Renaud situation?  Admittedly, I had stopped following things when Bob disappeared from being DPIART's "personal assistant" was always a little puzzled as to what happened -- Bob seemed to be *the* right hand man and then suddenly, he wasn't...

All I can say is that Bob had at least two almost relationships that ended and he was then blackballed from being marriage material. Even the insiders said he was “tainted goods” basically. Risky - you know, might have accidentally given your heart away. ?

Poor Bob. Honestly I always thought he was pretty normal. Still. Seems happy now. Hope he realizes he escaped the insanity. 

 

3 minutes ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I've never heard of Lindvall ( not completely up on all my fundies)  --could you explain this a little.  Not allowed to be friends with your siblings?  Why is that a good and desirable thing?  Sounds totally wack 

He was fringe. Tried to get a cult but was kind of a sideshow at homeschool conferences at his best. He was Uber “betrothal.” Today none of his children speak to him. Says enough. 

[NachosFlandersStyle]

3 hours ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

how girls should be betrothed at 13-14 to Ensure they were marked taken and not slutty through teen years

? 

Do you know if any of the families in his circle actually went through with this? I know about the Chapmans but kind of assumed that they were admired for their insane level of patriarchy, not for the young marriage age per se.

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

2 hours ago, Maxwell said:

I recall a story that alluded to a laptop/hard drive full of porn that went missing... any insights?

Any comments as to DPIART's propensity to make sexual/homoerotic remarks & then claim that it was the fault of the listener for hearing them that way?

That spanking story sounds like the same one told of RC Jr -- this is a different story NOT involving RC Jr.?

And lastly... could you comment on the VFM connection to ATI/IBLP?  I've always thought there was more to it than was let on but have been told that it was just coincidental as the two groups naturally overlapped a bit.  You're comments lead me to think that my suspicions are closer to the truth.

1) Ooooo never heard about that drive. Fun. What I can speak to is the computer that was provided to a pair of teen boys who were later heavily entrenched in VF ... which they used to access porn. In the one boys own words porn “of a certain particular kind” which was not expounded upon.........

2) LOL Of course. Because they all have NPD tendencies. If you were hurt it was your fault. If you are raped or assaulted it was the way you dressed or acted. If you get cheated on it was because you weren’t doing your wifely duties right. 

3) Different person. All I remember is it was someone in SA named Peter — but not Bradrick. Heard first hand from the witness of it  

4) ok so VF was always more “reformed” and Presbyterian and generally ATI types were more fundie Baptist. So while there was overlap my experience was mostly that people were mostly one or the other and very few were both. Those who were both were a little bit more “open minded” and less “weird.” That’s not to say there weren’t both. But I personally think If you had put a room of ATI and a room of VF together they’d have walked out on each other.

 

[Dreadcrumbs]

3 hours ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

Sadly to say would be identifying. 

Lets just put it into philosophical terms. 

I got angry that men get a pass to be porn-hounds, sex-fiends, aggressive or passive aggressive, mentally and/or spiritually abusive (and who knows, I know one VF man aka part of the San Antonio group who actually spanked his wife for insubordination in front of a guest ...) ... and women are considered house slaves, incapable of doing anything but risking their lives to deliver too many children too quickly. Read the Bible and you’ll find Jacob didn’t put 12 kids into one woman. He had 4. But when DPWIAT could have just run with the “I’m a modern-day Biblical patriarch” he chose instead to vilify and destroy the life of a girl he had groomed and manipulated for decade+. 

I was raised in this and while I did fall into some of the traps, ultimately I was never manageable because I did not fully believe the submission aspect. And submission is an absolute requirement — a prerequisite — to this life. Eventually because my mind was open enough, everything hypocritical started to glare at me and the absolute idiocy of their (let’s face it) anti-woman movement began to eat at me til I couldn’t keep quiet. 

Man, that was opening Pandora’s box. ?

I think you've done a great job here explaining without identifying yourself. ?

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

1 minute ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

?

Do you know if any of the families in his circle actually went through with this? I know about the Chapmans but kind of assumed that they were admired for their insane level of patriarchy, not for the young marriage age per se.

Oh yes. Waiting for Her Isaac o. M. G. 

8 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

?

Do you know if any of the families in his circle actually went through with this? I know about the Chapmans but kind of assumed that they were admired for their insane level of patriarchy, not for the young marriage age per se.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB120787888985406965

10 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

?

Do you know if any of the families in his circle actually went through with this? I know about the Chapmans but kind of assumed that they were admired for their insane level of patriarchy, not for the young marriage age per se.

https://brucegerencser.net/2015/11/taking-new-trend-quiverfull-courtship-betrothal/

 

http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2014/08/modesty-culture-part-12-amandas-story.html?m=1

 

Seriously just google child marriage and lindvall. 

[Eponine]

If it's not too identifying, how long have you been out of the VF/ATI/etc world? Do you still have much contact with people still in it? If so, do you feel like that world has changed significantly in recent years - I'm wondering whether the Gothard, DPIAT, and other scandals have caused changes in the outlook, hierarchy structure, or general philosophy. From the outside (or at least to me) it looks like things have decentralized a bit and they're kind of laying low.

[Sobeknofret]

Am I thinking of someone else, or was it Lindvall's daughter in law who crashed her car into a frozen pond, and her small children died? I remember being horrified at his reaction to the whole awful tragedy, and praying he'd evince a small shred of humanity, but never did.

[Leftitinmysnood]

21 minutes ago, Sobeknofret said:

Am I thinking of someone else, or was it Lindvall's daughter in law who crashed her car into a frozen pond, and her small children died? I remember being horrified at his reaction to the whole awful tragedy, and praying he'd evince a small shred of humanity, but never did.

 

18 hours ago, Nolongeroppressed8.4 said:

 

He was fringe. Tried to get a cult but was kind of a sideshow at homeschool conferences at his best. He was Uber “betrothal.” Today none of his children speak to him. Says enough. 

Wait, what? No, the daughter in laws are all still alive. All the adult kids, their families, and Lindvall parents had a "family reunion " in March and they all seem to be in the photo. A bunch also got together for Christmas, one of the sons has a mother's day post about how great him mom is. Still pretty fundie. Oldest daughter who married at 35 only has one kid. For all Jonathan's grandiose betrothal plans, real life didn't quite work out that way, although I doubt he'd admit it. I always found him be naive and gullible. 

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, Leftitinmysnood said:

Wait, what? No, the daughter in laws are all still alive. All the adult kids, their families, and Lindvall parents had a "family reunion " in March and they all seem to be in the photo. A bunch also got together for Christmas, one of the sons has a mother's day post about how great him mom is. Still pretty fundie. Oldest daughter who married at 35 only has one kid. For all Jonathan's grandiose betrothal plans, real life didn't quite work out that way, although I doubt he'd admit it. I always found him be naive and gullible. 

I was under the impression that Lindvall was so extreme, isolationist, and sheltering he sort of went underground after the Marantha Chapman thing was so widely trashed.  And that a lot of our usual suspect Fundies thought he was a loon. 

Here's a long article I think I've posted before discussing the various courtship gurus and their similarities and differences in their heyday.  Consider the source.

https://www.unlessthelordmagazine.com/articles/Courtship Approaches.htm

I think courtship is going out of fashion with all but the most extreme these days, but Lindvall's child marriage and "betrothal" banner was picked up by the unspeakable Vaughn Ohlman.  This example of a Vaughn Ohlman special is recent;

http://www.princecharmingdiapers.com/betrothal-story-joshua-laura/

 

 

[refugee]

I seem to recall Lindvall posting an apology for his child-rearing advice at one point. His explanation was that it had seemed good at the time, but his kids were all little when he was writing and publishing. Apparently when they hit teens/adults, he got a dose of reality?

I don’t think I dreamed that, but I don’t remember seeing it mentioned at all in the past 5 or 6 years. So maybe I confused him with someone else. But “Lindvall” is kind of a distinctive name...

Were you at all influenced by Cheryl Lindsey/Gentle Spirit, Mary Pride, and/or Teaching Home magazine?

As to Josh Harris, interesting to get your take. I once did some digging on the web about his dad and found some indications that he was accused of stealing the mailing list of the homeschooling resources company he worked for. Shades of DPIAT and HSLDA...

p.s. Gregg Harris and the people behind Teaching Home got caught up in Cheryl Lindsey’s lawsuit after they tried to muzzle her and force her to return to her allegedly abusive husband (using “allegedly” in the legal sense as there’s little doubt in my mind, knowing that crowd), and maybe by the way hoped to steal her magazine’s following and mailing list...

Edited May 31, 2019 by refugee
Related thought

[refugee]

Another question for VF followers here in general: how many interns were there at any one time? How many were there in total? How common was it for several sons in one family to be interns at one time or another (not necessarily simultaneous; could be sequential)? Were interns representative of VF’s elite families, or could the run of the mill VF follower aspire to the intern program?

Did families have to pay DP to take on interns, or did the interns receive pay, or a stipend, or just room and board?

Although we knew a family who sent boys to Texas to be interns, either I never thought to ask any of those questions at the time, or I’ve forgotten the answers.

p.s. @Nolongeroppressed8.4 Glad you got out.

I keep telling my kidults that a good, satisfying, fulfilling life that is based on their own choices and values is the best revenge. (Against those who would have tied them up hand and foot, figuratively, and ordered them to be joyful while inflicting as much misery as possible)

Edited May 31, 2019 by refugee
Clarification

[JermajestyDuggar]

I just want to see if I’m remembering right. Maranatha and family are now super into CrossFit right? Which tickles me pink. Be cause I see people who are super into CrossFit just like I see newly minted fundies. They just can’t stop talking about it. 

[Sobeknofret]

3 hours ago, Leftitinmysnood said:

Wait, what? No, the daughter in laws are all still alive. 

The daughter in law in this case did survive, but her small children did not. It was dark and she missed a turn in the road and drove off into a pond or river. She was able to escape but the children in the car seats drowned. 

I keep thinking it was Lindvall, but it may not have been. It was definitely one of the "Patriarchy" crowd, because I commented on it here.

 

ETA: I was wrong. It was William Einwechter's family, not Jonathan Lindvall. Mea culpa. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Sobeknofret

[Maxwell]

18 minutes ago, Sobeknofret said:

The daughter in law in this case did survive, but her small children did not. It was dark and she missed a turn in the road and drove off into a pond or river. She was able to escape but the children in the car seats drowned. 

I keep thinking it was Lindvall, but it may not have been. It was definitely one of the "Patriarchy" crowd, because I commented on it here.

Memory is fading but I think you're talking about William Einwechter, a Reformed pastor out of Pennsylvania who was involved with VFM for a bit, through the "Witherspoon School of Law & Public Policy"

[Sobeknofret]

1 minute ago, Maxwell said:

Memory is fading but I think you're talking about William Einwechter, a Reformed pastor out of Pennsylvania who was involved with VFM for a bit, through the "Witherspoon School of Law & Public Policy"

Thank you! That is exactly who I was thinking of. Such an awful tragedy.

[Maxwell]

See here: 

 

[Howl]

4 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I just want to see if I’m remembering right. Maranatha and family are now super into CrossFit right? Which tickles me pink. Be cause I see people who are super into CrossFit just like I see newly minted fundies. They just can’t stop talking about it

I was utterly totally completely WTAF gobsmacked when I found out the Chapman's (Maranatha and Matthew) owned a CrossFit "box."  It seemed (and still seems) like the unlikeliest thing ever. 
Here ya go:  Premier CrossFit: Who We Are

[hoipolloi]

Maranatha Chapman at work:

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

21 hours ago, Eponine said:

If it's not too identifying, how long have you been out of the VF/ATI/etc world? Do you still have much contact with people still in it? If so, do you feel like that world has changed significantly in recent years - I'm wondering whether the Gothard, DPIAT, and other scandals have caused changes in the outlook, hierarchy structure, or general philosophy. From the outside (or at least to me) it looks like things have decentralized a bit and they're kind of laying low.

I started to work my way out in 2006-2007. By 2009 very little contact with all but one or two families. Now? The only people I know and speak to who come from that world are as out of it as I am — and that’s just a few who are like me (rejected the teachings 100% but not my faith). I can’t go into detail how I am still somewhat connected but I can say that those who were deep in it (you know, the kind you can look at and instantly tell they followed VF) just need a look at their FB friends list to confirm a dozen recognizable names. They all still follow the world of VF even if they shake their heads sadly at how DPWIAT got corrupted by that horrible terrible girl, poor dear man. ?

Anyone who would remain followers / friends of these organizations and their minions after this fiasco in my mind are either stupid naive or willfully evil. But ask me what I really think....

14 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I was under the impression that Lindvall was so extreme, isolationist, and sheltering he sort of went underground after the Marantha Chapman thing was so widely trashed.  And that a lot of our usual suspect Fundies thought he was a loon. 

Here's a long article I think I've posted before discussing the various courtship gurus and their similarities and differences in their heyday.  Consider the source.

https://www.unlessthelordmagazine.com/articles/Courtship Approaches.htm

I think courtship is going out of fashion with all but the most extreme these days, but Lindvall's child marriage and "betrothal" banner was picked up by the unspeakable Vaughn Ohlman.  This example of a Vaughn Ohlman special is recent;

http://www.princecharmingdiapers.com/betrothal-story-joshua-laura/

 

 

Didn’t Vaughan Ohlman wrote extensively for Natty Darnell’s now gone (but still can find on WaybackMachine) blog?? Lots of fun stuff about how women had to behave to be proper feminine vessels of brainless babymaking.