The Pearls: "Your child's soul depends on it"

[AnnoDomini]

The Pearls are a popular subject at FJ, but I have yet to see a topic examining their weird, unbiblical ideas about the soul of a child, how

'discipline' can 'save' a soul, etc.

[fundiefan]

A child's soul is his/her responsibility and his/hers to do with as chosen. You can't beat it into salvation any more than you can pray it into salvation.

If you believe in that sort of thing, at least. I don't believe in souls but I get the concept. Each soul is the essence of who a person is, not how one behaves. Especially as a child.

If Christians believe in forgiveness, the entire idea of being able to influence a child's soul at all is ridiculous. A child is a child. They are not now who they will be when they grow up. Every day we wake up we have the opportunity to do right or wrong, good or bad, great or average.

[Guest Anonymous]

The basic tenet, IMO, is that if you don't whale the bejabbers out of your child, he/she will have a stellar career, making license plates.

[emmiedahl]

The Pearls are no friend of science! I wish they would examine the many studies on spanking and rate of imprisonment, drug addiction, mental illness, antisocial behavior.

[Austin]

Tulip Girl had a recent post on this:

http://www.tulipgirl.com/index.php/2011 ... parenting/

A christian couple has dissected this in great depth and Tulip Girl features it on her blog:

David and C.L. Dyck have carefully considered the underlying theology of the parenting promoted by the Pearls, and laid it out clearly for Christian parents. Sadly, the faulty theology of the Pearls has harmed many families, physically and spiritually.

David and C. L. Dyck’s book “Parenting in the Name of God: Review of No Greater Joy Child-Training Doctrine†has just been released. I highly recommend it to all Christian parents.

You can download the book here for free (although they are accepting donations to cover the cost of generating the ebook):

http://scitascienda.com/scienda-store/

I am working my way through the book now.

[AnnoDomini]

I refer more to the specific heretical ideas the Pearls seem to have about the mutability of the saved state of a person, and how a parent has any say or control over if their child is saved.

[Letgo]

I checked out the Pearls' book from the library, but I could not read all of it. Do they really think that spanking is the way to heaven? If a child is not spanked then he or she will not or cannot accept Christ? Spanking someone into salvation does not seem to be a Christian concept to me.

[myanimus]

Do they really think that spanking is the way to heaven? If a child is not spanked then he or she will not or cannot accept Christ? Spanking someone into salvation does not seem to be a Christian concept to me.

Probably already been said but I think they believe yes. I think the basic theory is you break them, you "teach" them from the beginning that their own will is sin, it is selfishness, demanding. By "training" them you are preparing their souls to accept Jesus, who also suffered but far more then the child is suffering. I believe the theory is that God gave his son to suffer for our sins and children need to suffer for their own sins so their "hearts will not be hardened" and they will be able to "hear" and be saved.

I don't think all of these parents believe this but either way, they are supported by their church and friends and choose to surround themselves with others who are like-minded and the immediate results they get are all positive because they're following so righteously.

IMO a lot of the followers probably couldn't care less if their children respects them or fears them as they do what's expected / demanded.

ETA It's late, I've had a few drinks and hope I make some sense and that I didn't just sit and repeat myself. I hate anyone who hides behind God to justify abuse.

[Boltingmadonna]

Depressing topic for a Sunday morning. I don't think people like the Pearls really care much about the child's salvation anyway. They're just using the threat of hell to make the parents do things that would otherwise seem unconscionable. Yeah, it's horrible to beat a baby with a stick, and most normal human beings can see that. So, to force them into a mental space where they'll do it anyway, you just whip out the intolerable threat that their kids will go to HELL if they don't. This is why I hate the idea of eternal punishment. Because it's soooo bad and awful that you can get people to do all kinds of horrible things if the alternative is burning in Hell. Don't want to burn heretics alive? But if you don't, they (and you) will BURN IN HELL. Don't want to make a choice between no sex for the rest of your life, or dying in your 12th pregnancy? Too bad--do it or you'll BURN IN HELL. Well, you get the point, I'm sure. BURN IN HELL is the answer to everything, and once you put people in that mindset of fear, they numbly follow your instructions no matter how big a psychopath you are. Maybe that's the real turn-on for the Pearls--it's not just dominating the children, it's knowing they can actually make loving parents beat their kids, on Mikey's say-so. They are really sick.

Well, I'm off to run the service at my Unitarian Universalist church. We don't believe in Hell! Bwah ha ha ha . . . . and we have cookies.

[apple1]

Tulip Girl had a recent post on this:

http://www.tulipgirl.com/index.php/2011 ... parenting/

A christian couple has dissected this in great depth and Tulip Girl features it on her blog:

You can download the book here for free (although they are accepting donations to cover the cost of generating the ebook):

http://scitascienda.com/scienda-store/

I am working my way through the book now.

A lengthy and difficult read.

From the viewpoint of a Christian (non-fundy), the Pearls have developed a very unusual and twisted theology that does not reflect any mainstream/historical Christian theological perspective. The Pearls' "theology" seems to have as its purpose justification for their pre-existing child "training" philosophies. From a Christian viewpoint, perhaps the most egregious point in their theology is the replacement of the atoning work of Christ with human parents' child training actions, i.e. that salvation comes not through Christ's sacrifice on the cross, but through parents beating children.

It is astonishing to me that so many professed Christians seem to totally miss this and continue to not only support, but to spread the Pearl doctrine.

[AnnoDomini]

Apple, that's exactly it! They seem to have replaced God being in charge of salvation through Christ's death, with parents being in charge of their children's salvation through proper 'training'.

[Austin]

A lengthy and difficult read.

From the viewpoint of a Christian (non-fundy), the Pearls have developed a very unusual and twisted theology that does not reflect any mainstream/historical Christian theological perspective. The Pearls' "theology" seems to have as its purpose justification for their pre-existing child "training" philosophies. From a Christian viewpoint, perhaps the most egregious point in their theology is the replacement of the atoning work of Christ with human parents' child training actions, i.e. that salvation comes not through Christ's sacrifice on the cross, but through parents beating children.

It is astonishing to me that so many professed Christians seem to totally miss this and continue to not only support, but to spread the Pearl doctrine.

Having an evangelical background and lots of Bible classes has helped me through this. I think it would be quite confusing for someone without that that background.

[hoipolloi]

A shorter but good commentary (to me, at least) on the Pearls' "theology" was written by the NZ blogger Catez Stevens some years ago: allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/09/michael-and-debi-pearls-no-greater-joy_30.html

Stevens seems to be a conservative but thinking Christian and her exegesis of Michael Pearl's writing & audio-sermons was interesting. She hasn't been posting much in the last year or two but her website is still up.

[AnnoDomini]

Interesting, I'll checkit out.

[maybeizfundie]

Their overall theology is skeezy, not just related to child-training.

I think they're making it up as they go along. As they've branched out from the training books into other areas, there's been increasing weirdness.

[AnnoDomini]

I read the article and posted it to my FB wall where my family (who historically have supported the Pearls--my sister even asked if I'd 'even read the books' which was a stupid question because she knows I'm the one who insists people judging things without reading/seeing them, even Twilight which I have not read), should read what they'redissing before dissing it, otherwise they're just going with the flow of popular opinion.

[VeraAnne]

The theology here is just insane. The man claims that he is living a sinless life. That alone should raise a million Christian redflags. NO ONE is sinless apart from Jesus. Does Mike Pearl think that he is Jesus? It sure seems like it.

Apart from that, the idea that we are somehow saving the souls of our children by beating them into submission is absurd. Did Jesus come and beat us into submission so that we could get into Heaven? Uh no. The last time I checked he was tortured for our sins. If we want to twist scripture and say that parents can somehow take sin from their children, the proper analogy to Jesus would be if we beat ourselves for our children's sins.

Of course, that is idiotic and completely contrary to Christianity. It's really pretty simple. Salvation doesn't come from anything that WE do apart from accepting what Jesus did. Spanking doesn't come into the equation at all. You can't beat someone's sins out of them.

Scary, scary theology.

[apple1]

...I think they're making it up as they go along. As they've branched out from the training books into other areas, there's been increasing weirdness.

That.

ETA One wonders why so many professed Christians follow the Pearls with absolutely no discernment, because there is certainly no consistency with even the most basic and agreed-upon Christian theology.

[apple1]

The man claims that he is living a sinless life. That alone should raise a million Christian redflags. NO ONE is sinless apart from Jesus. Does Mike Pearl think that he is Jesus?...

Or red flags in general.

One has to wonder about the whole mental stability thing. Add in the whole not having enough sense to bathe and put on clean clothing before being interviewed for national TV (as on the CNN Ungodly Discipline piece).

Potential spectacular tragedy in the making (and there has already been more than enough Pearl-instigated tragedy).

[Letgo]

Jesus preached forgiveness. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus advocate beating babies.

I wonder who "disciplines" Michael and Debi? Now, I do believe in original sin and have never met a perfect person. So who beats the Pearls? Do they hit each other? Or would only the male get to beat the female for being unsubmissive? Is the plumbing line sufficient for adults or is something thicker required?

[AnnoDomini]

That's what BDSM is for.