Jinjer 45: First a Preacher then a Seminarian

[Coconut Flan]

Continued from here:

 

 

[TheOneAndOnly]

Aack, I posted just as this new topic was being created. LOL Here's what I said even though it's going to look weird without context.

People moved around a lot more than American history books would have us believe, I think. The British isles were full of people from Europe (not just Romans and Vikings) and Europe had lots of travelers from the middle eastern countries. Any groups that lived near water could build boats and go mingle on other islands/continents. 

That branch of mine that I mentioned that thought they were Irish but were really English? They also were supposed to have had Dutch lineage. Research showed a similar situation as the "Irish" ancestor. Huguenots that were chased out of England and ended up in the Netherlands before heading for America. I don't know why everyone was against just being English. We're mostly shaped like teapots anyway, it seems obvious.

[sleepy_doggos]

Aack, I posted just as this new topic was being created. LOL Here's what I said even though it's going to look weird without context.
People moved around a lot more than American history books would have us believe, I think. The British isles were full of people from Europe (not just Romans and Vikings) and Europe had lots of travelers from the middle eastern countries. Any groups that lived near water could build boats and go mingle on other islands/continents. 
That branch of mine that I mentioned that thought they were Irish but were really English? They also were supposed to have had Dutch lineage. Research showed a similar situation as the "Irish" ancestor. Huguenots that were chased out of England and ended up in the Netherlands before heading for America. I don't know why everyone was against just being English. We're mostly shaped like teapots anyway, it seems obvious.

I also read recently that there are ancient ancestral DNA similarities between Scandinavians and native Americans. I will link the article if I can find it.
Oh, and archaeological evidence strongly links Celtic cultures to Siberia/ancient Asia!
We are all connected

[Carm_88]

I love that ancestry tests get people excited about finding our more about their family history. I enjoy my ever expanding family tree!

[sleepy_doggos]

I also read recently that there are ancient ancestral DNA similarities between Scandinavians and native Americans. I will link the article if I can find it.
Oh, and archaeological evidence strongly links Celtic cultures to Siberia/ancient Asia!
We are all connected

Found a link about European/native American ancient DNA
http://sciencenordic.com/dna-links-native-americans-europeans

[louisa05]

2 hours ago, TheOneAndOnly said:

Aack, I posted just as this new topic was being created. LOL Here's what I said even though it's going to look weird without context.

People moved around a lot more than American history books would have us believe, I think. The British isles were full of people from Europe (not just Romans and Vikings) and Europe had lots of travelers from the middle eastern countries. Any groups that lived near water could build boats and go mingle on other islands/continents. 

That branch of mine that I mentioned that thought they were Irish but were really English? They also were supposed to have had Dutch lineage. Research showed a similar situation as the "Irish" ancestor. Huguenots that were chased out of England and ended up in the Netherlands before heading for America. I don't know why everyone was against just being English. We're mostly shaped like teapots anyway, it seems obvious.

Yes. This. So much this. 

One side of my family has always claimed they were German. The last name--not changed anywhere along the way--is a Scottish clan name and common in the UK. My brother has done some research and basically found out our immigrant ancestors left Scotland and were in Germany for a few years before coming to the U.S. I had been trying to explain for years that it was likely that someone in the family tree had lived in Germany for a time rather than the family being ethnically German. 

Same thing on my Irish side. One group immigrated by way of Liverpool leading to the notion they were English not Irish. Except Liverpool in that period had a sizable Irish population (as much as 20% in 1851) and getting a ship to the U.S. there was not unheard of, either. 

I think a lot of Americans have the mistaken notion that European populations were not mobile in previous centuries. 

[zee_four]

@JordynDarby5 @Rachel333 I LOVED that book! As keiki (little kids) I remember sitting withi the cousins and hearing my tutu (grandma) and aunties (any older woman blood relative or not) telling us stories about the noble kanaka princesses and queens during the ages of the Hawai'ian Kingdom. Just being enthralled. My dad's ohana (family) is pretty poor. He's from Waia'nae, also known as the Compton of Hawai'i. It's almost all like 98% Pacific Islander and Native. It's on O'ahu but the far leeward (west) side if the island. There's so much poverty, health issues, lack of good education. Sitting there in Goodwill clothes and slippas (flip flops) and hearing all about these noble wahines (women) that were our people, ruling the island. Not having aunties go clean hotel rooms 10 hours a day for minimum wage to come back to a house with like 10+ people in two bedrooms. But we were very fortunate, there's a HUGE homeless camp on the beach. A lot of the homeless in Hawai'i are haoles from the mainland who came out for whatever reason but that fell through and they got hooked on drugs mostly meth. But there's also ohanas out there in these really elaborate tents, shacks, abandoned RVs that make up the camps. 

I know I can't define what makes someone Native. But to me there's a difference between someone who finds out they have X amount of Native in the their blood and someone who's first hand experiences being raised in their Native culture with all the good, the values, traditions, ohana but who has also experienced the negatives, the discrimination, the result of generations of being removed from your land forced into poverty with dead end jobs, now having ohana face major health issues and not being educated while haoles (white people) get to profit off the culture they took from you and your people. 

Especially since I'm half kanaka half Irish Canadian, I know that can make it a strange delicate topic to talk about. When I was little I was much darker, I lightened up a bit as I got older I started to sometimes experience white privilege and I try to balance that. I also try to advocate for my people, my community and ohana with the privilege I'm awarded. I'm also privileged because my dad joined the army when he was 18, he did ROTC and became  later the first full blooded kanaka maoli full bird colonel in the US Army. So I was able to be raised when I was older away from this. so I got a good education and had more privilege But I was raised kanaka, my ohana is all kanaka, it's very meaningful to me and frustrating  when people dismiss it or really try to make a point of claiming distant Native ancestry.

[Someone Out There]

@HerNameIsBuffy

@DaisyD@hoipolloi

My understanding of it all is that if you are of European descent if you go back 1000 years you will be able to find a common ancestor for people in Europe.  If you go back 4000 years then you will be able to find a common ancestor for anyone in the world (Admittedly I'm not sure how true this is with some isolated groups).

Interestingly the Australian Indigenous groups all had systems around who you could and couldn't marry with varying degrees of complexity and all 250ish countries had a taboos around a Son and Mother-In-Law interacting.  One of the theories is that this is to deal with the effects of inbreeding.

[DaisyD]

17 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Yes. This. So much this. 

One side of my family has always claimed they were German. The last name--not changed anywhere along the way--is a Scottish clan name and common in the UK. My brother has done some research and basically found out our immigrant ancestors left Scotland and were in Germany for a few years before coming to the U.S. I had been trying to explain for years that it was likely that someone in the family tree had lived in Germany for a time rather than the family being ethnically German. 

Same thing on my Irish side. One group immigrated by way of Liverpool leading to the notion they were English not Irish. Except Liverpool in that period had a sizable Irish population (as much as 20% in 1851) and getting a ship to the U.S. there was not unheard of, either. 

I think a lot of Americans have the mistaken notion that European populations were not mobile in previous centuries. 

When I was researching the history of the Black Watch I ran across this. It might explain the presence of Scottish ancestors in Germany. My mom traced one line to Normandy right before the Norman invasion. Then they were in England. It's a fair bet they were part of that.  http://historyreconsidered.net/14.html

[cascarones]

I'm not totally caught up, but I can give a bit of insight into the weighting factor of DNA tests and smaller percentages having worked with one of the big one's algorithms. Your name, your family tree (if known) is taken into account when determining percentages. This weight changes depending on the quality of the sample. The loci matches are there IF the sample was stable enough after being taken, mailed in uncontrolled conditions and able to be replicated enough. You swipe your cheek, you mail it off, it hangs out in a holding facility and gets mailed to a lab with a bunch of other samples. Different people have different numbers of testable points as a result, family tree and name vary in percentage weight accordingly.

Some of the reweighing happening is due to increased sample size, some of it is due to removing error samples. Humans make mistakes, samples get mislabeled, company gets feedback, tests are removed from the group. In reality, only the obvious ones are culled, for the most part people shrug and are surprised at their percentages. They do whatever with the information, try to connect it via genealogy, connect with their long lost roots, ignore it. 

[hoipolloi]

11 hours ago, cascarones said:

I'm not totally caught up, but I can give a bit of insight into the weighting factor of DNA tests and smaller percentages having worked with one of the big one's algorithms. Your name, your family tree (if known) is taken into account when determining percentages. This weight changes depending on the quality of the sample. 

THANK YOU! This is very enlightening and interesting. 

[lumpentheologie]

Someone mentioned in the last thread that it was ridiculous to be surprised that you're a quarter Native American, but that's basically what happened to my mother and her siblings when they did 23andme last year. It's not like they had one Native grandparent--everyone on that side of the family considers themselves 'Spanish' and I have cousins who have traced the family lines to the first Spanish colonists in New Mexico in the 1590s. I think they just never talked about any mixing that had happened with the local Native Americans, probably because they were pretty racist and wanted to be 'pure' European. 

Now it turns out that we have a substantial percentage of Native American, but I've never identified that way and I'm not sure what to make of it.  I've always been proud to trace my lineage back 14 generations in this country, but now I guess it goes back substantially longer than that. I figure educating myself about Native cultures and tribal issues is a good place to start for now. 

[DaisyD]

That's it. It's either your grandparents, or it's a few of your ancestors further back. I could see being surprised by finding out your a quarter something because there were a few further back.

[SapphireSlytherin]

Well, I got a genealogy surprise over the weekend:

 

My 9th great-grandfather's name is James Snapes.

 

Maybe there's *something* to this whole Slytherin thing after all. lol

[Four is Enough]

5 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Maybe there's *something* to this whole Slytherin thing after all. lol

I have an ancestor named Collins... my sister and I are sure that the Collins family curse has descended to us..

Collins? Barnabas Collins? Dark Shadows? Anyone? Bueller??

[SassyPants]

20 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

I have an ancestor named Collins... my sister and I are sure that the Collins family curse has descended to us..

Collins? Barnabas Collins? Dark Shadows? Anyone? Bueller??

One of my faves as a middle schooler!

[Snowless]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

I have an ancestor named Collins... my sister and I are sure that the Collins family curse has descended to us..

Collins? Barnabas Collins? Dark Shadows? Anyone? Bueller??

My dad was a huge Dark Shadows fan back in the ‘70s.  He and his mom (my late Granny) would watch it together.  Interestingly enough, after Granny died in 2012, my dad’s two brothers both came down to Florida for the funeral and spent the night before the funeral at our house, and we all ended up watching the movie adaption of Dark Shadows.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

@zee_four I have heard old stories from Aboriginal elders about how people from the Pacific NW travelled to Hawaii to trade and intermarry. Also, at one time cougars inhabited the islands.  I know the people were brilliant at star navigation and I have seen reconstructed  canoes that , in my opinion, could have made the trip.  The people had a vibrant and complicated life that they don’t get respect for. Have you heard any ancient stories in this regard?

[TheOneAndOnly]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

I have an ancestor named Collins... my sister and I are sure that the Collins family curse has descended to us..

Collins? Barnabas Collins? Dark Shadows? Anyone? Bueller??

My mother dated a boy with that last name when she was a teenager and Grandma swore that Mom was only interested in him because of the name. (Mom watched Dark Shadows religiously) 

On the topic of Spanish and Native American, etc I have heard more cringy ideas come from people claiming descent from Melungeons than I can count. They don't have magic powers, they weren't some secret society, they were just people. The word "Melungeon" comes from the French word 'melanger,' meaning 'mix' so there was likely Spanish, Native, African, Caribbean, even dark complected European. In a society that was often hateful towards anyone not white enough to glow in the dark I guess they seemed otherworldly but really? Just people. 

I have annoyed myself by remembering some past conversations. I think I'll go look up clips of Dark Shadows (original series not that horrible movie) and get in the mood for Halloween. :) 

[Four is Enough]

If you haven't hit up the Youtube Dark Shadows clips, there's a hilarious one of the Twelve Days of Christmas... with them hunting in the woods (at night of course) for the tree, etc..

 

My sister and I both have the complete set of 1226 episodes on DVD.. packaged in a coffin shaped box... It'st our favorie thing to watch when we're together..

[libgirl2]

54 minutes ago, Snowless said:

My dad was a huge Dark Shadows fan back in the ‘70s.  He and his mom (my late Granny) would watch it together.  Interestingly enough, after Granny died in 2012, my dad’s two brothers both came down to Florida for the funeral and spent the night before the funeral at our house, and we all ended up watching the movie adaption of Dark Shadows.

I remember in the 80s I used to spend summer vacations in the Dominican Republic.... the big thing at night was when Dark Shadows came on. Gloria the maid/cook would watch it on her black and white TV in the dining room. Everyone had to be quiet because "Barnabas" was on. 

[SassyPants]

My aunt (20 years younger than my mom and closer in age to me) and her husband loved Dark Shadows. They name their daughter Angelique!

[cascarones]

4 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

Now it turns out that we have a substantial percentage of Native American, but I've never identified that way and I'm not sure what to make of it.

Here is the Cherokee Nation's response to Elizabeth Warren's DNA test. This is in no means a reflection on you and your recent DNA test with known family history, but I hope it's helpful when figuring out what to make of it from a different perspective. 

"A DNA test is useless to determine tribal citizenship. Current DNA tests do not even distinguish whether a person’s ancestors were indigenous to North or South America," Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. said. "Sovereign tribal nations set their own legal requirements for citizenship, and while DNA tests can be used to determine lineage, such as paternity to an individual, it is not evidence for tribal affiliation. Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage."

[Rachel333]

12 minutes ago, cascarones said:

Here is the Cherokee Nation's response to Elizabeth Warren's DNA test. This is in no means a reflection on you and your recent DNA test with known family history, but I hope it's helpful when figuring out what to make of it from a different perspective. 

"A DNA test is useless to determine tribal citizenship. Current DNA tests do not even distinguish whether a person’s ancestors were indigenous to North or South America," Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. said. "Sovereign tribal nations set their own legal requirements for citizenship, and while DNA tests can be used to determine lineage, such as paternity to an individual, it is not evidence for tribal affiliation. Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage."

That response is frustrating because Elizabeth Warren isn't even claiming tribal membership the way he suggests just that she has some distant Native American ancestry.

 

[patsymae]

My friend who is a Carpathian Jew (was Austria Hungary, then Czechoslovakia, then Poland, then Hungary when her parents were born, then Russia when she was born, now Ukraine) had her DNA done and its overwhelmingly Scandanavian, with very little Eastern European Jewish. So I guess those Rus Vikings got around.