Joshua Boyle and Caitlan Coleman

[nssherlock]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/14/what-were-caitlan-coleman-and-joshua-boyle-really-doing-in-afghanistan/?tid=pm_world_pop

Would like some opinions on Boyle's story - does not sound in the least factual.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Destiny
Fix title. / Fix link

[nssherlock]

Why would you vote me down Coconut Flan --- I haven't said a thing except I'd like opinions.   Do you just automatically vote me down?

[Coconut Flan]

From the FJ guidelines:

Quote

Downvotes

No one owes anyone an explanation for downvotes and they can be given for any reason, from serious disagreement to an avatar that doesn't amuse you.  Don't ask about down votes in the threads - that's not drift it's disruption.  Also remember that people accidentally downvote when on mobile so if it happens and there is no other reason to believe your post is objectionable do everyone a favor and let it go.

For the record, you made me have to edit your post title and with your track record, that was enough.

[nssherlock]

Wow --- Coconut, sorry I "made you edit" my post title, was not meant and I am absolutely astounded by your viciousness.

 

[Nikedagain?]

Viciousness? Where?

[Kailash]

41 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

Viciousness? Where?

Non existant. Just click on that user's name and you'll find the thread she/he are referencing.

[Destiny]

I’m not able to read the linked story because of being out of Washington Post reads for the month, but i agree, what I’ve seen of the story doesn’t ring true to me either. I’m very curious to see what comes out in the wash here. 

[holierthanyou]

I’m so grateful this young family was returned home to safety where they belong.  A young American mother, her three little babes all under the age of five, and much of the public response has still been indifferent to their return.

 

My heart hurts for what the young family endured, and also for the callousness of the American public.

[mstee]

I guess this might come across as callous, but they went hiking in a war zone while she was heavily pregnant. I just don't get it! I get traveling (safely) and seeing places before your first baby arrives, but they were just reckless. 

Of course, though, I don't think that their mistake should've resulted in captivity and torture. I'm glad they have been returned and i hope they can heal. It's just a "why???" moment for me in regards to how they even ended up in the position they were in. 

[nssherlock]

Don't think it is lack of sympathy for the woman and her little children - it is a question of Joshua Boyle's motivation for going there in the first place.

If you do a little searching you will find that he was active for years in getting a converted terrorist freed from Guantanamo and awarded over 10 million by the Canadian gov. eventually,  then  marrying his very pro-Taliban sister.   Said sister was previously married twice, BinLadin was a guest at one of her weddings -- hardly an innocent "pilgrim" as he paints himself, Joshua is at best a delusional self-important attention seeker and has converted to Islam.

 

He was a very active online gamer for years, a self-described adventure seeker interested in terrorists, wanting to write a book about them.   He weighed upwards of 300 lbs. when he and his very pregnant wife decided to go "hiking" in Afghanistan -- how they managed that is a puzzle.

 

His constant media seeking, his voiceless wife who seems terrified and very ill, his utter disregard for the safety of his pregnant wife in the first place -- not to mention getting her pregnant at least 3 more times while they were living "in holes" and caves so tight they could not stand up (according to his media rants), with absolutely no pre-natal care or medical help during births,  screams fundamentalist to me --- first Christian, then Muslim.

He says he didn't want to waste any time producing a large family - never mind the poor woman could easily have died giving birth and had a miscarriage at one point (which Boyle calls "murder").

 

They are both home schooled fundamentalists from what I read --- just very, very odd.

 

[Howl]

Yes, he referred to his dead infant daughter as Martyr Boyle.  He apparently did not hold back on sharing that his wife was raped in captivity.  

He claimed they were there to help villagers in remote areas.  If he indeed did weigh 300 lbs and she was advanced in her pregnancy, I'm not sure how much hiking either of them could have done -- I'm assuming they were hiking to remote mountainous villages not accessible by road. 

[ViolaSebastian]

For me, the strangest part about this was that they decided to just go for it and start a family while under captivity. I realize she was already pregnant with the first, but I feel like having more was extremely risky--not just in terms of not having prenatal care and help during labor, but also in terms of not knowing how their captors would react or how long they'd be there. 

[Carm_88]

@nssherlock Omar Khader was not a convicted terrorist. He was taken as a 15 year old, thrown in Guantanamo Bay, tortured, and is owed that money by the Canadian Government because they violated his Charter Rights as a Canadian Citizen. It is being settled because the Canadian government cannot win. 

As for this family, it's all very suspicious. I'm not sure I believe much that comes out of Joshua Boyle's mouth. 

[nssherlock]

"After his 2015 release from prison in Alberta, Omar Khadr apologized to the families of the victims. He said he rejects violent jihad and wants a fresh start to finish his education and work in health care. He currently lives in an apartment in Edmonton, Alberta.

The news of the government giving millions to someone who pleaded guilty to killing a U.S. soldier has caused a stir in Canada.

"This is nuts. Khadr should instead be in jail for the murder of Sergeant Chris Speer, whom he killed. No consideration for Speer's family," tweeted Car Vallee, the former spokesman for ex-Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

 

Khadr's lawyers have long said he was pushed into war by his father, Ahmed Said Khadr, whose family stayed with Osama bin Laden briefly when Omar Khadr was a boy. Khadr's Egyptian-born father was killed in 2003 when a Pakistani military helicopter shelled the house where he was staying with senior al-Qaida operatives."

From Newsmax, today --- he may have been only 15, but he fought with the Taliban.

 

 

[Carm_88]

Quote

Definition of a child soldier

A child associated with an armed force or armed group refers to any person below 18 years of age who is, or who has been, recruited or used by an armed force or armed group in any capacity, including but not limited to children, boys and girls, used as fighters, cooks, porters, spies or for sexual purposes.
(Source: Paris Principles on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict 2007)

Which fits the UN definition of a child soldier. 

Still doesn't mean that he can be taken by the US and thrown in Guantanamo Bay and forced to confess under torture. 

[nssherlock]

o.k., from your perspective that makes him an innocent, the family of the man he killed and the man he blinded would beg to differ.

 

Does not make any significant difference in Joshua Boyle's case, however.

Read the interview Caitlan gave today -- if you still have doubts she's Muslim and a Taliban sympathizer, that should clear it up.

[daisyjane1234]

On October 21, 2017 at 12:49 PM, nssherlock said:

they are both home schooled fundamentalists from what I read --- just very, very odd.

Coming out of lurkdom to note that Joshua Boyle, at least for high school, was not home schooled.  He is the graduate of a small, local, theologically progressive, (modern) Mennonite high school in Ontario.  I am very familiar with the school.  It is interesting, because while the Boyle family was known to be "devout",  their fundamentalist views would be largely out of step with the liberal ethos of the school. 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

Who on earth thinks this is a good idea? This story is beyond absurd.

[nssherlock]

12 minutes ago, daisyjane1234 said:

Coming out of lurkdom to note that Joshua Boyle, at least for high school, was not home schooled.  He is the graduate of a small, local, theologically progressive, (modern) Mennonite high school in Ontario.  I am very familiar with the school.  It is interesting, because while the Boyle family was known to be "devout",  their fundamentalist views would be largely out of step with the liberal ethos of the school. 

Interesting, thanks.   This is an excerpt from a statement Boyle gave to a newpapers in Ottawa today;

"We can certainly understand that many people do not understand what we were doing in Afghanistan, but the simple truth is that no pious Muslim and no pious Christian and no pious Jew has actually questioned our actions at all. We were raised in, live in and remain in different paradigms than those questioning us are in.

To those who strive to devote their life to acting as a servant of God, no explanation is necessary. To those who don't strive to devote their life to acting as a servant of God, no explanation is possible. Unfortunately, it's really that simple.”

-Joshua Boyle "

[Carm_88]

1 hour ago, nssherlock said:

"We can certainly understand that many people do not understand what we were doing in Afghanistan, but the simple truth is that no pious Muslim and no pious Christian and no pious Jew has actually questioned our actions at all. We were raised in, live in and remain in different paradigms than those questioning us are in.

They should give Joshua Boyle something so he can stop spewing shit from his mouth. I very much doubt that even the most pious Christians would think it a good idea to go to Afghanistan on a jaunt. If he likes it so much, he should go back! 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

7 hours ago, nssherlock said:

Read the interview Caitlan gave today -- if you still have doubts she's Muslim and a Taliban sympathizer, that should clear it up.

The only interview I could find that she gave was with The Toronto Star on Monday. (Other news outlets picked it up more recently.) I'm not really sure what you read that makes you (apparently) certain that she is Muslim and a Taliban sympathizer. 

She mentions one of their captors being mildly kind. 

Quote

“Then we were moved to the north of Miran Shah, to the house of a man who said he was called Mahmoud. He was very nice to Najaeshi and would provide us with amenities we wouldn’t have otherwise,” she said. “He would take Najaeshi out to get him sunlight and nobody else did that at any other point.”

That doesn't confirm any of her beliefs or loyalties to me.

Or were you thinking of her still wearing a hijab?

Quote

She has continued to wear a hijab since returning to Canada but declined Monday to speak about whether she has converted to Islam.

I guess, to me, that is still pretty ambiguous. If I had spent years wearing a particular style of clothing that covered me, I don't know that I would throw it off right when the whole world was staring at me. I might want to stay as covered as I had gotten used to. (Didn't the protagonist in A Handmaid's Tale have trouble getting used to ordinary clothing at the end of the book? It's been over 20 years since I read it.)

I don't know what the bleep these two thought they were doing, going hiking in Afghanistan while she was pregnant. I don't know their motivation then and I don't know what they believe now. I do wish that they could or would take some time to heal outside of the spotlight and maybe wait until their lives have found a new normal before they start giving lots of interviews or writing books. I can't imagine that it's a good idea to make big life decisions right after escaping.

[samurai_sarah]

7 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

(snip)

I guess, to me, that is still pretty ambiguous. If I had spent years wearing a particular style of clothing that covered me, I don't know that I would throw it off right when the whole world was staring at me. I might want to stay as covered as I had gotten used to. (Didn't the protagonist in A Handmaid's Tale have trouble getting used to ordinary clothing at the end of the book? It's been over 20 years since I read it.)

(snip)

That's what I keep thinking.

Here's another article on an interview Caitlan Coleman gave. It's the Daily Fail, but provides a few nuances to some aspects of it all:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5013669/Ex-Taliban-hostage-says-terrorists-killed-unborn-baby.html

For those who don't want to click:

- She claims that her captors aborted baby Martyr by lacing her food with hormones.

- She claims to know this because her husband understands Farsi (a Persian language, which is also native to Afghanistan) and overheard their captors

- She says they discussed having kids in captivity

- They claim they always wanted a large family

Having said that, I found it rather jarring that her husband allegedly told the AP that (from the article):

Quote

'We always wanted as many as possible, and we didn't want to waste time. Cait's in her 30s, the clock is ticking.' 

While I will readily believe that they wanted a family, I find this kind of attitude to be weird, when in captivity under the conditions described. I also don't believe in their humanitarian mission. Logically, what can two backpacking hikers realistically do? So, I'll go with either delusion as do-gooders, or the delusion that it was safe to go on a pilgrimage.

Whichever it is, they paid a heavy price, and will continue to do so. Whether that's deserved or undeserved is not my call to make.

[nssherlock]

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/85307/joshua-boyle-caitlan-coleman-no-tears-for-muslim-convert-terrorism-abetters/

[OtterRuletheWorld]

5 hours ago, samurai_sarah said:

That's what I keep thinking.

Here's another article on an interview Caitlan Coleman gave. It's the Daily Fail, but provides a few nuances to some aspects of it all:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5013669/Ex-Taliban-hostage-says-terrorists-killed-unborn-baby.html

For those who don't want to click:

- She claims that her captors aborted baby Martyr by lacing her food with hormones.

- She claims to know this because her husband understands Farsi (a Persian language, which is also native to Afghanistan) and overheard their captors

- She says they discussed having kids in captivity

- They claim they always wanted a large family

Having said that, I found it rather jarring that her husband allegedly told the AP that (from the article):

While I will readily believe that they wanted a family, I find this kind of attitude to be weird, when in captivity under the conditions described. I also don't believe in their humanitarian mission. Logically, what can two backpacking hikers realistically do? So, I'll go with either delusion as do-gooders, or the delusion that it was safe to go on a pilgrimage.

Whichever it is, they paid a heavy price, and will continue to do so. Whether that's deserved or undeserved is not my call to make.

Good God, please tell me nobody here needed the bolded explained to them.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

Well, that blog was some bigoted vitriol I could have done without. (Without which I could have done?)

I mean what I could read of it. Every time I tried to scroll down, it tried to take me to an advertising link. I also appreciated that I could choose from 6 credit card options to subscribe or donate! No thanks.