Stockdale Family Murders Part 2: The Sequel

[Destiny 55,729]

Continued from here:

 

[TisaWee Farm 89]

Jacob CHOSE to stay on the farm.  That was his dream...to be a farmer and a musician.  He LOVED the farm animals and chores.  He grew exotic lettuces (and other things) that he sold in various markets and venues.  He raised animals for meat and eggs.   His parents encouraged him to go to college...they encouraged ALL of their children... but Jacob wanted to be a farmer.   Mention was made that he seemed to get the crappy, dirty jobs at home, but he chose to do the farming jobs.  He was researching breeding and genetics and was trying to improve on a rare variety of short-horn (I think) cows that he had.   All of the Stockdale boys are VERY intelligent...Jacob just chose NOT to go to college.

Another side note.   The boys weren't "forced" to take music lessons.  They LOVED music.  They were brought up with family singing nights and songs at the table.  They learned rhythm by banging pots and pans as toddlers, and then progressing to real instruments.  

Edited September 22, 2017 by TisaWee Farm
typo,,,damn.

[VVV 5,181]

8 minutes ago, TisaWee Farm said:

Another side note.   The boys weren't "forced" to take music lessons.  They LOVED music.  They were brought up with family singing nights and songs at the table.  They learning rhythm by banging pots and pans as toddlers, and then progressing to real instruments.  

Did you read the mother's family manual posted on the other thread? They certainly were required to take music lessons and to pay for them themselves. That doesn't mean they didn't love music.  I was not given a choice with regard to taking music lessons either, and I love music and have made a career of it. As a side note, most people pursuing either music or farming as a career actually do go to college to study those subjects.

But seriously, if you haven't yet read the family manual--the full text is under a spoiler tab near the end of the first thread--please do so. It is not FJ-er speculation. It is Kathy's own words.

On another note, one possible reason why Jacob Stockdale has not yet been charged with murder, from comments on the GFM:

(first commenter) I am so sorry for this Great tragedy of the loss of this precious mother and son. But Jacob's medical bills (the suspected shooter) will be fully cover by the county because he will be under their watch if he recovers. The people will not have to pay his bills with their donation. Thus, his medical expense with not be a burden to the remaining family members.

(second commenter) Jacob's medical bills will not be covered until he has been indited by a grand jury and formally charged with a crime. From Canton Repository report of last week, this has not yet happened. So the cost of the last 2 months (emergency transport, trauma emergency care, long-term ICU care etc.) will not be paid by Stark county.

Edited September 22, 2017 by VVV
adding clarifying words because FJ magically merged two posts into one.

[Zenyatta 1,310]

https://kathy-stockdale.squarespace.com/schedule/

This is the Stockdale Family website with dates scheduled through November 2017.  This also contains a Wife Swap Q&A with Kathy Stockdale and the other wife/mom.

A haunting experience to look at this.  I hope the Stockdale men, family and Jacob find comfort and peace in their faith and in each other.  

[Ozlsn 46,000]

If Jacob recovers but with an acquired brain injury does that affect the likelihood of him being tried or jailed? Obviously it wasn't something he had at the time of the murders, but would it factor into where he would be detained if found guilty, or even whether they would press charges or not?  

I really feel for his family, friends and their community.  No matter what happens from here it is going to be painful.

[KnittingOwl 9,223]

4 minutes ago, Ozlsn said:

If Jacob recovers but with an acquired brain injury does that affect the likelihood of him being tried or jailed? Obviously it wasn't something he had at the time of the murders, but would it factor into where he would be detained if found guilty, or even whether they would press charges or not?  

It wouldn't affect what charges they press against Jacob, but it could affect his competency to stand trial.  Competency hearings are separate of pressing charges and would be done before a trial starts.  At least that's my understanding from years of watching Law & Order.

[Palimpsest 78,568]

It seems clear the state intends to press charges at some point.  There will have to be a forensic  psychological and competency assessment.   To stand trial he needs to be able to understand the charges, the penalties, and be able to cooperate with his defense.  It is a pretty low bar.  He'd also need to be deemed competent to stand trial to plead guilty, which might spare him the death penalty.

Ohio is a death penalty state.  It also doesn't seem to care that most of the people on death row at the moment were seriously abused, or are mentally ill or cognitively impaired.   https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/6857

There will be some politics going on here too.  Community pressure can affect whether or not the state throws the book at Jacob.  If the community is screaming for Jacob's blood the DA is less likely to go for a plea agreement.

I'm against the death penalty on principle and I do think there are probably extenuating circumstances here.  People portraying the Stockdales as perfect parents and Jacob's home life as paradise isn't going to help him.  As to the cause - it might be the onset of mental illness resulting in a psychotic break, but even schizophrenia has warning signs.  The family may have not have recognized them or sought help for them at the time, but may be able to remember Jacob struggling with disorganized thoughts or hallucinations (just two of many symptoms) before this happened.

It is really sad.

[formergothardite 117,274]

@TisaWee Farm, did you read the manual? It was put in the other thread? Either the mother created a world where she was a monster who controlled her children to the point of being abusive, which is a huge red flag that something weird is going on, or she was telling the truth in that manual and their life was a living hell. 

[Howl 66,752]

In my mind, I can only think that it was mental illness.  Of course, I googled and found a study of parricides (children killing parents) in the Canadian province of Quebec from the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law

Here's an interesting excerpt from "Parricide: A Comparative Study of Matricide Versus Patricide"

Quote

MATRICIDE.

Almost all of the matricides occurred in the family home (22/24, 91.7%). A majority (17/24, 70.8%) of perpetrators were living with the parents at the time of the offense. The most common method of killing was use of a blunt instrument (8/24, 33.3%), followed by use of a knife (7/24, 29.2%) or a firearm (5/24, 20.8%). Other methods used were strangulation and carbon monoxide intoxication (2/24 and 1/24, respectively). A homicide‐suicide dynamic was present in seven (29.2%) cases, and 13 percent (3/24) of perpetrators were intoxicated at the time of committing matricide. Three quarters of the matricides occurred without a warning sign (18/24, 75%). Although four of those perpetrators had had prior contact with a psychiatrist or a physician, the homicidal impulse was either not yet present or had not been disclosed.

 Full text of study is here. 

and under the Characteristics of Perpetrators section 

Quote

Seventy percent (17/24) of perpetrators who committed matricide had a psychotic motive (i.e., delusional thinking)...

...For both matricide and patricide offenders, the most common Axis I diagnosis was schizophrenia or other psychosis (54.2% for matricides; 46% for patricides), followed by depression (16.7% for matricides; 13.9% for patricides) and intoxication (4.2% for matricides; 5.6% for patricides).

Deepest condolences to family and friends.  It is a horrible tragedy. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Howl

[Snarkle Motion 4,169]

45 minutes ago, Howl said:

In my mind, I can only think that it was mental illness.  Of course, I googled and found a study of parricides (children killing parents) in the Canadian province of Quebec from the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law

Here's an interesting excerpt from "Parricide: A Comparative Study of Matricide Versus Patricide"

and under the Characteristics of Perpetrators section 

Deepest condolences to family and friends.  It is a horrible tragedy. 

I've been saying this from the get go based on my own work with teens with psychosis. It can have a sudden onset and be highly confusing. If there is a firearm in the house (or sharp knives) it can be deadly. 

I think it's telling that the other mother from wife swap knew right away which son committed the murders. People with schizophrenia prior to having a psychotic break often show signs of being slightly "off" or strange to others. I want to be careful with what I say and make sure people don't give too much weight to what I'm saying as it's not an official diagnosis and based on short clip of a TV show. But I got a schizophrenic/schizoid vibe from the footage. I mean I could go into details of exactly why but it would be really long and not necessarily very meaningful because we should take it with a grain of salt.

On a completely different note, the way people interpret the manual is making me really reexamine my own childhood. I mean when I looked at it I was like "that doesn't seem as bad as I expected based on how everyone is talking about it."

 I grew up in a highly controlled environment where every hour was scheduled and was forced to perform certain activities at a very high level with hours of daily practice. It's what drew me to this community. Was this traumatic and damaging to me? Absolutely. Did it qualify as abuse? Maybe at times. Never physical (well occasional shoving or intimidation but only when older). Definitely emotional abuse, refusing to speak to me or tell me how disappointed they were if I'd had an off performance. Was it ever so extreme that my only way out was murder? Not even close. Jacob appeared to have access to resources (siblings out of the home, travel and interaction with others) that would have permitted him to leave as an adult that should have been a first step. It's why I'd hate if my mother was remembered only as a controlling abuser. Do I hate and resent her and who is treated at times? Absolutely. But I still love her, know she had good intentions, and her control issues stemmed in part from her own mental illness.  

P.S. To the mods, I'm now putting two and two together. I was wondering why I was so fixated on clarity of rules/expectations so I don't mess up. My upbringing has made me very concientious/hyperfocued on rules. Like I'm legit asking for clarification because I have a history of fearfulness (as well as not wanting to disappoint others) for breaking the rules.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Snarkle Motion

[Maxwell 1,760]

20 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

I've been saying this from the get go based on my own work with teens with psychosis. It can have a sudden onset and be highly confusing. If there is a firearm in the house (or sharp knives) it can be deadly.

From the study, it sounds like a blunt object is the weapon of choice yet we see no champaign to ban hammers and bats.  Although England has made an attempt to ban pointy knives (see here and here).

[Palimpsest 78,568]

35 minutes ago, Howl said:

Full text of study is here. 

Yikes, that study might need a trigger warning.  Interesting but it has lots of limitations.  Also interesting that in Canada only 20% of the parricides involved firearms.  Jacob also killed James so it wasn't just matricide.

Not a lawyer, but I am told pleading insanity as a defense is really hard, and that's why it doesn't often happen or succeed in the US.  Think Andrea Yates's first trial - and the evidence of postpartum psychosis was massive.

It also brings up irresistible impulse (formerly "diminished capacity") defenses.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_impulse 

It is a long time ago, but everyone was astonished when Lorena Bobbitt was acquitted.  Not because PTSD and dissociative fugue aren't real, but because it seemed such a risky defense.

[SoGladIWasCofE 1,621]

25 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

 

P.S. To the mods, I'm now putting two and two together. I was wondering why I was so fixated on clarity of rules/expectations so I don't mess up. My upbringing has made me very concientious/hyperfocued on rules. Like I'm legit asking for clarification because I have a history of fearfulness (as well as not wanting to disappoint others) for breaking the rules.

Parental focus on rules rather than effects of actions will do that. I have a similar issue.

Being autistic also makes it tricky sometimes, I can't count the number of times I've read the rules, thought I understood them, then been told my understanding was wrong. I'm never 100% sure my understanding is right, and I need really specific levels of clarification sometimes. It's tricky to tell if something isn't against the rules, or if it is but someone isn't being called out because of social status sometimes.

Fj is better than a lot of places for having clear rules though.

[Palimpsest 78,568]

Just now, Maxwell said:

From the study, it sounds like a blunt object is the weapon of choice yet we see no champaign to ban hammers and bats. 

Canadian study.  I would bet that the same study in the US would show many more deaths by firearms.  In the recent quadruple murder I posted in the last thread the weapon was a bat.  There are also murders by automobile. 

[Coconut Flan 44,972]

50 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

I'm now putting two and two together. I was wondering why I was so fixated on clarity of rules/expectations so I don't mess up. My upbringing has made me very concientious/hyperfocued on rules. Like I'm legit asking for clarification because I have a history of fearfulness (as well as not wanting to disappoint others) for breaking the rules.

We have a place for that discussion and it is here:

Questions about rules application or definition do not belong in topic threads.  We have never been ambiguous about that.  

[Curious 41,562]

There are a lot of hints about what will get you pushback and about board culture in the welcome new members document.  It's not just for new members, it a good review for everyone.

[Lurky 42,122]

I really appreciate the community pages, and especially the Rules thread, the most recent one of while is linked to by  @Coconut Flan.  My experience of it was super-positive.  I asked Q, and people answered without judgments, and I could follow up, and I understood something I didn't before.  I recommend it!  The mods are all about making it easier to keep to the rules, and it's an excellent resource.

[Snarkle Motion 4,169]

What makes me most skeptical that Jacob was responding to abuse is the fact that he shot his brother. I find a hard time justifying a reason for that. I'm sure it's possible but to me the more likely scenario is that he was experiencing psychosis. He was feeling threatened, seeing/hearing things that weren't there.

[Curious 41,562]

There are a number of reasons for why he shot his brother.  Maybe he thought he was "saving" him.  Maybe the brother walked in when he was killing mom and he ended up being collateral damage.  Unless Jacob recovers sufficiently to talk about the crime, we will never know.

We will never know what truly went on inside the house unless one or more of the surviving family members talks.  Even then we may not have an accurate description of Jacob's experience because even people living in the same house will give different accounts of their experiences.  

Often there is one child that is abused and the other children have no idea it's going on. 

People can be really good at hiding what is really going on in their home.

[Carm_88 84,217]

On 9/22/2017 at 0:56 PM, Maxwell said:

From the study, it sounds like a blunt object is the weapon of choice yet we see no champaign to ban hammers and bats.  Although England has made an attempt to ban pointy knives (see here and here).

Yeah because it Canada we have stricter gun laws. That would be why it's blunt force trauma.  Good try though. 

[Palimpsest 78,568]

30 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Yeah because it Canada we have stricter gun laws. That would be why it's blunt force trauma.  Good try though. 

I don't have a problem with banning long pointed kitchen knives either.  I can't remember the last time I used one in cooking.  But you will take my nice heavy cooking pans away from me over my dead body.  I don't care if they count as blunt objects.

[Ozlsn 46,000]

On 9/23/2017 at 1:26 AM, Maxwell said:

From the study, it sounds like a blunt object is the weapon of choice yet we see no champaign to ban hammers and bats.  Although England has made an attempt to ban pointy knives (see here and here).

When firearms aren't readily to hand their use in unplanned murders drops proportionally to whatever is readily at hand. So knives, blunt objects etc. I bet the number of murders involving an axe dropped as more people stopped needing to chop wood for heating and cooking too. I mean yeah, people quite often still have an axe but unless the argument is taking place in the shed it's more likely to be a knife or large vase to hand.

On 9/23/2017 at 1:26 AM, Palimpsest said:

It also brings up irresistible impulse (formerly "diminished capacity") defenses.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_impulse 

It is a long time ago, but everyone was astonished when Lorena Bobbitt was acquitted.  Not because PTSD and dissociative fugue aren't real, but because it seemed such a risky defense.

Now I'm wondering if that is similar to what is known as the provocation defense - basically the "s/he taunted me and I snapped and killed him/her" defense. Which was abolished here not least because it had a strong gender bias (it was far more likely to be successfully used as a defence for men than women) and it was used in a couple of very controversial cases where the accused had previously stalked the victim. 

I hope that if Jacob is assessed as being mentally ill (or as having had a psychotic break at the time) that the defence is accepted. 

[Palimpsest 78,568]

41 minutes ago, Ozlsn said:

Now I'm wondering if that is similar to what is known as the provocation defense - basically the "s/he taunted me and I snapped and killed him/her" defense.

Hell, that is positively archaic and definitely gender biased.  It's almost as bad as honor killings being OK.

The Lorena Bobbitt trial was for assault not murder.  She claimed she had PTSD form years of abuse and marital rape and that caused her to "snap" and go into a dissociative fugue state.  It was in that state she sliced off the "weapon" (her husband's penis) and threw it away.

She was probably only acquitted because her husband couldn't keep his stories straight and came over as horrible.  He was later convicted of assault and battery against subsequent partners , which rather confirms her story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_and_Lorena_Bobbitt

Another problem with an insanity defense (temporary or otherwise) is that it is not a get out of jail free card.  People can end up in psychiatric units in medical prison facilities indefinitely.  There is usually no time limit specified, and they can only be released if they are deemed no longer a danger to others.  Some of those psychiatric units are terrible.

Jacob's brain injury may make it difficult to get a full psychiatric assessment too.  It is not my area, but if his ability to communicate is compromised I can imagine it would be hard.

Note to @TisaWee Farm, if they are still around, that is not a question for you. This is a hypothetical discussion only.  I saw that you said Jacob has amnesia earlier, but I think you should keep quiet about his health if you respect his privacy.  We will find out in good time.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Palimpsest

[Ozlsn 46,000]

17 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Another problem with an insanity defense (temporary or otherwise) is that it is not a get out of jail free card.  People can end up in psychiatric units in medical prison facilities indefinitely.  There is usually no time limit specified, and they can only be released if they are deemed no longer a danger to others.  Some of those psychiatric units are terrible.

Jacob's brain injury may make it difficult to get a full psychiatric assessment too.  It is not my area, but if his ability to communicate is compromised I can imagine it would be hard. 

Yeah I read "Behind the gates of Gomorrah" by Stephen B. Seager a couple of years ago and was shocked at how bad California's facilities were for both staff and patients. I sincerely hope that things have improved,  and the units in Ohio are better. Unfortunately mental health facilities tend to be underfunded, and when you add in emotive factors like violent crimes it feels like a bit of "they deserve whatever they get" comes in. It's complicated, and I don't think we're great as a society with dealing with it. 

I hadn't considered the impact of an ABI on assessment but you're right, that could make things more difficult. What a horrible situation for his family.

 

[anniebgood 3,787]

4 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

Yeah I read "Behind the gates of Gomorrah" by Stephen B. Seager a couple of years ago and was shocked at how bad California's facilities were for both staff and patients. I sincerely hope that things have improved,  and the units in Ohio are better. Unfortunately mental health facilities tend to be underfunded, and when you add in emotive factors like violent crimes it feels like a bit of "they deserve whatever they get" comes in. It's complicated, and I don't think we're great as a society with dealing with it. 

 

2

We can all thank the great Republican saint Ronald Reagan for the decimation of the California Mental Health System. Rather than keep treating patients who the state was tired of paying for, he basically closed the mental health hospitals, and released them onto the streets. That caused havoc for the counties and the cities who now had this influx of ill people wandering around. 

Today we still don't have enough beds for the ones who need it. One needs only to drive down Skid Row in downtown LA where 2 blocks from highly gentrified lofts and boutique hotels, you find tent cities full of mentally ill people. Drug addicts, prostitutes and all levels of mental illness flood those dark streets. 

 

OT: The song "Hotel California" talks about the state hospital at Camarillo which is now California State University Channel Islands, CSUCI for short.