Stockdale Family Murders Part 2: The Sequel

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, anniebgood said:

We can all thank the great Republican saint Ronald Reagan for the decimation of the California Mental Health System.

This is only one of many, many reasons I hope that Ronald Reagan is burning in an everlasting hell. He was a truly vile human being and Nancy was no better. 

[Lurky]

One of the insidious things about the 'provocation defense' is there's [EDIT!!] SOMETIMES no evidence.  There were some high profile UK cases where men who murdered their wives claimed she's told him she was having an affair, or derided his masculinity/performance in bed, and he snapped, but there was no evidence for any of it, and there was evidence of domestic abuse.  In these cases the defense lawyer could smear the dead woman as much as they like, and she couldn't answer back.

And the idea that men can just "see red" and snap, and commit murder, but otherwise be a fine, upstanding member of the community with no underlying mental health issues, was really horrible, and dangerous.

Here's why the specific Provocation defense was abolished in UK law:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/jul/29/justice.ukcrime

& more legalese on wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provocation_in_English_law

And provocation in terms of "gay panic" is incredibly problematic.  Men claiming that there was an aggressive come-on that made them snap and commit murder is so often completely unproveable (though they can generally prove a history of homophobia)

Edited September 24, 2017 by Lurky

[laPapessaGiovanna]

11 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

When firearms aren't readily to hand their use in unplanned murders drops proportionally to whatever is readily at hand. So knives, blunt objects etc. I bet the number of murders involving an axe dropped as more people stopped needing to chop wood for heating and cooking too. I mean yeah, people quite often still have an axe but unless the argument is taking place in the shed it's more likely to be a knife or large vase to hand.

True. But countries where thanks to strict gun control firearms are the least used method tend to be countries where the homicide rates among the population are a lot lower. https://www.unodc.org/gsh/

[Aine]

On 9/22/2017 at 0:07 AM, Ozlsn said:

If Jacob recovers but with an acquired brain injury does that affect the likelihood of him being tried or jailed? Obviously it wasn't something he had at the time of the murders, but would it factor into where he would be detained if found guilty, or even whether they would press charges or not?  

I really feel for his family, friends and their community.  No matter what happens from here it is going to be painful.

I haven't read all responses but if he is not competent to assist in his own defense, that's grounds for insanity even if he wasn't mentally unwell at the time of the murders. He'll likely be institutionalized for the rest of his life though in that case (I'm a psychologist). It seems likely he was mentally unstable at the time but that's difficult to prove if he never accessed services and was isolated.

[Palimpsest]

I mentioned this Homeschoolers Anonymous series in the last thread but I don't think I linked to it.  Trigger warnings!

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/04/09/when-homeschoolers-turn-violent-series-index/

[Soulhuntress]

On 9/23/2017 at 11:42 PM, anniebgood said:

Today we still don't have enough beds for the ones who need it. One needs only to drive down Skid Row in downtown LA where 2 blocks from highly gentrified lofts and boutique hotels, you find tent cities full of mentally ill people. Drug addicts, prostitutes and all levels of mental illness flood those dark streets. 

That is a messy horrible situation:  documented horrible abuse at said mental hospitals led to the Lanterman Petris Short Act of 1967 which gave involuntarialy committed people civil rights.  (Mom was a speech therapy student when this all started and she had horror stories about the state hospitals they toured).    One big problem with LPS  and similar laws is that the mentally ill can sign themselves out when stable (involuntary holds have to be reviewed at various legally set points).  And they go off their meds when released. And NIMBY made it difficult to  establish community based homes.  In other words, good intentions and a really bad outcome.  I have really mixed feelings about NAMI (had to try and get a family member committed and legally they could say no).

 

http://www.lacourt.org/division/mentalhealth/MH0017.aspx

[peggyolson]

are there any updates on this family? I've googled the case and found just old stuff from 2017.

[JermajestyDuggar]

On 8/30/2018 at 1:54 PM, peggyolson said:

are there any updates on this family? I've googled the case and found just old stuff from 2017.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/oh-stark/brother-in-bluegrass-band-turns-himself-in-to-police

Jacob has turned himself in for the murders. He’s been in care for his self inflicted gunshot wound for awhile. 

[ViolaSebastian]

According to this, it looks as though the grand jury took the death penalty off the table. He still faces jail time, naturally.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6304423/Wife-swap-son-shot-dead-mom-brother-not-face-death-penalty.html

[Nikedagain?]

I just wonder how he is cognitively...

 

[Retroman]

Upon discovering this forum, I created a membership just to post a few thoughts about the tragedy of the Stockdales, because I have personal insight into some of the debated "reasons" for Jacob's act.

I have read every post in both halves of the forum, and at the risk of being exiled immediately, I would like to point out that, aside from CrazyMamma (sp?), no one ever mentioned the possibility of "orientation" and how it may have contributed to Jacob's mindset.  I now know that this is a forbidden topic, but again, due to my life experience, I simply could not NOT bring it forward.

I know firsthand the kind of inner conflict that such a personal issue can stir up.  The horrendous pain.  The grinding depression.  As a college student/young adult, I was suicidal most of the time because of the trash I was taught by my fundie parents, my fundie college, and the fundie church.  The message I absorbed from them was that I was doomed to hell because I had feelings for men instead of women.  Unless I changed...which is a whole other can of spaghetti-o's.  So my thoughts were, "Why wait?" 

I turned my back on the church--and God--for fourteen years.  I don't know if that caused my suicide attempt at thirty-six, or delayed it until then.  All I know is that I was saved by God and no doctrine, dogma, list of rules, catechism, etc, had anything to do with it.  Touched by an angel?  I was touched by the Real Thing.  And I now believe that my preference is hardly the feature that interests Him most about me.  If He had such a problem with it...why let me live?

I cannot even imagine the hell it must be for children to grow up in an environment such as that of the Stockdales, the Duggars, etc, while struggling to hide their true "identity".  And if this contributed to the horror of June 15th, 2017, it is completely understandable, if not excusable.  Mrs. Stockdale might have found something.  Jacob might have blurted something out.  I'm not saying this was the case, but it COULD have been.  It happens all the time.  And if it wasn't, I believe, as with the majority here, that Jacob had untreated mental illness issues, chronic ones, which somehow exploded out of control that day.  His upbringing and family may or may not have contributed.  I'm thinking it did.  One thing I would bet on--even if the Stockdales were nowhere near being the "bad" parents that others have painted them as, neither were they close to being the "saintly" parents which many still insist they were.  Their autocratic regime was just that, no matter how kind its lighting.

Another personal note which led me to speak here...I am from Brewster, Ohio, which is right next to Beach City, where the Stockdale family lived.  I never knew them, but my parents attend church with some people who did.  At the time of the tragedy, much was, of course, made of Mrs. Stockdale's bizarre, controlling tactics with the boys.  But the consensus of those in the know was, "HE was worse".  Make of that what you can.

My heart has from the beginning gone out to the whole family, including those who are gone.  As a person who identifies with struggling souls, whatever the cause, my heart goes out to Jacob the most.

Thank you, and God's peace.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Retroman

[TheOneAndOnly]

Update from Jan 17, Jacob pled not guilty by reason of insanity, his trial is scheduled for April 9.

https://people.com/crime/wife-swap-killings-jacob-stockdale-pleads-not-guilty-reason-of-insanity/

[Joyleaf]

The trail has been delayed while Jacob undergoes a mental health evaluation:
https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/akron-canton-news/man-charged-in-slaying-of-mother-brother-ruled-incompetent

 

https://www.cantonrep.com/news/20190506/jacob-stockdale-trial-delayed-for-mental-health-treatment

(cannot be accessed from all countries)

[scoutsadie]

I'm just now learning about all of this while reading the first thread. That family "manual" (found using this link - http://web.archive.org/web/20170616183644/http://stockdalefamilyband.com/stockdale-family-manual/ ) reveals such an incredibly oppressive home. Hard to believe that anyone is more controlling and vigilant about preventing fun than Steve Maxwell, but Kathy Stockdale seemed to have taken the cake (before her third son murdered her).

Here's the most recent info I could find, from early October 2019:

https://www.indeonline.com/news/20191007/stockdale-case-recorded-jail-phone-calls-sought

[smittykins]

If I didn’t know better, I might have thought Braggie Abbie based  her family’s motto on the Stockdales’.

#hardisnotthesamethingasbad

#itsahardlifebutitsagoodlife

[JermajestyDuggar]

23 minutes ago, smittykins said:

If I didn’t know better, I might have thought Braggie Abbie based  her family’s motto on the Stockdales’.

#hardisnotthesamethingasbad

#itsahardlifebutitsagoodlife

I really really hope that her kids just up and leave her ass and nothing comes to violence. 

[Glasgowghirl]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I really really hope that her kids just up and leave her ass and nothing comes to violence. 

Yes, while obviously I don't condone what Jacob did, he grew up in horrible situation and often fundie family's dont believe in seeking treatment for mental illness so I unfortunately believe similar things will happen to other families. 

[Retroman]

This is terrible...I mean REALLY terrible.  But the late Mrs. Stockdale thoroughly reminds me, in behavior and appearance, of Margaret White in CARRIE.  That character was not nearly as over the top as generally thought.  The parallels are nothing short of eerie.  I wonder if she had a prayer closet for the kids?

[neuroticcat]

I am reading this thread now because someone linked to it on the Plathville thread recently. 

I saw a few earlier posts questioning abuse because of the brother’s death, but I don’t think that tragic element excludes abuse. sibling relationships can themselves be abusive and intensely dysfunctional, especially if family dynamics are unhealthy - especially with triangulation, golden children, kids set up to protect abusive parents, scapegoating, and projection. Obviously we have no idea if any of that happened, but in an abusive home all relationships have high dysfunction.

[Howl]

The sanity evaluations and ability to stand trial are still being parsed.  The trial date was sometime in April, I think, but even with latest evaluation, I'd assume COVID-19 restrictions would delay the trial. 

From February 2020: Jacob Stockdale to undergo sanity evaluation  is the latest update I could find. 

 

[Smee]

I’ve been down a rabbit hole in these two threads, reading every post for the first time, since yesterday. Should have warned someone that I’d need rescue ferrets!

I also got the impression from the thread that no one could watch the Wife Swap episode in question back when this all first came to light. Its now able to be found on YouTube again, search Stockdale/Tonkovic and it will come up.

A couple of things I took from the show:

- it wasn’t all Kathy. The Tonkovic mother said something about how Tim fought every one of her proposed rule changes, and when she told him the older boys agreed to go on a date he marched off saying “I’ll talk to them”. He objected to stopping (pausing) the chores not because of the spouted belief about work ethic and earning your keep, but because he didn’t have enough time to do it all himself.

- brainwashing or not, the boys certainly seemed to believe in the lifestyle they’d been raised in. The dating thing was pretty illuminating because the eldest specifically asked to talk with the Tonkovic mother about it without his dad around, and then she basically had to beg them to give it a go while they cried about it not being good for them (that “date” was so dumb and staged anyway)

- when taken straight from their strict diet (which, with no medical training, I am armchair diagnosing as orthorexia by proxy) to frozen pizza etc the youngest boy commented “I hope I don’t get sick” and my first thought was “of course he will, with a change that drastic”. In true reality tv fashion they had to contrast super strict with super permissive and all-natural diet with total junk. Those kinds of extremes would almost certainly have made them feel worse, which just reinforces the belief that Mom’s way was right all along and is the only thing that keeps them healthy.

- although they seemed more controlling than fundie per se, religion definitely played a role. Tim was offended that the other woman got up to make sure dinner wasn’t burning while they were singing a prayer of thanks. Kathy was hella judgmental and hung up on premarital sex, at one point the live-in girlfriend of the Tonkovic son asks Kathy how she’d feel if one of her sons wanted to marry a woman who had had sex and she brings up some bullshit about that being a sign this hypothetical woman is more likely to cheat after marriage. She had a bible open on the table when she talked to the Tonkovic dad about giving his children guidance. And in the meeting with the two sets of parents, the Tonkovic Mom said the children were afraid to date because they thought dating meant “courting” and they’d have to get married. I don’t know of anyone outside of Christian fundamentalism that uses the term courting.

- reality tv taken with a grain of salt of course, but at the end when they do the “3 months later we went back to see what had changed” they apparently added video games as a thing they could do when they earned enough “tokens”.

- when packing to leave Kathy says something like “I can’t think of a single thing from this household I want to take back to mine” and that the whole experience reiterated how her way was the right way. She comes across VERY judgmental, and it’s pretty telling that aside from the video games, during that “3 months later” thing they’re reeeeally stretching to find things that have changed - they settle on “they didn’t previously write their own bluegrass songs and because she made them rap, now they do!”

 

it’s all just really sad. My speculation tends towards “he had undiagnosed and untreated mental illness/psychosis that his parents either turned a blind eye to or tried to punish out of him” rather than the “snapped after too much repression and wanted to save his brother” narrative. Regardless, as someone who has a mental illness I can only imagine how difficult it would be to ask for psychiatric help in an environment like that, or to even know that help is available. I feel like the whole concept of hallucinations as a symptom that people experience is something I didn’t formally learn in school but must have picked up through pop culture, google, discussions with friends, and questions asked in doctors offices.

[indianabones]

Jacob's trial is scheduled for January 26th (or it was as of September, let's see how bad things get with covid...)

[NoseyNellie]

So in the local paper it is reported that Jacob is being moved from the Mental Health facility back to the local jail b/c he is an escape threat.. The online access is subscriber only.. I will try to copy and past the article!  (Personal Note- he has a really good defense attorney- I know that guy!) 

 

CANTON  A man charged with shooting and killing his mother and brother in 2017 is being moved from a mental health facility to the Stark County Jail following possible escape attempts and other concerns. 

Stark County Common Pleas Judge Frank Forchione made the ruling Thursday after receiving the request from Heartland Behavioral Healthcare, a state mental health hospital in Massillon where Jacob Stockdale has been held for months.

Forchione previously had ordered Stockdale to be placed at Heartland Behavioral so he could be restored to competency, which has occurred. Competency is when the defendant understands court proceedings and is able to assist with his own defense.

Stockdale is charged with two counts of murder in the shooting deaths of his mother, Kathryn Stockdale, 54, and his brother, James Stockdale, 21, at the family home on Dolphin Street SW in Bethlehem Township on June 15, 2017.

Stockdale then survived a self-inflicted gunshot wound to his head on the same day, according to investigators.

The case initially had been delayed because of Stockdale’s resulting medical issues. The COVID-19 pandemic and legal issues and filings also have postponed the trial.

County prosecutors have not commented on the evidence in the case or a motive for the killings. Available court records also do not reveal details about the shootings.

Stockdale is an accomplished fiddler and his family was known throughout the region for their popular bluegrass band, performing at events and venues in Stark, Wayne and Holmes counties.

The family also had appeared on the reality television program, “Wife Swap.”

Forchione said he received a letter on Feb. 3 from the chief clinical officer at Heartland Behavioral, a few days after Stockdale's sanity hearing in common pleas court.

"Heartland staff has expressed concerns about his current status, particularly (because) he had two documented incidents of attempting to leave the unit in what is believed (to be) an effort to elope from Heartland," he said.

Forchione said Heartland staff was concerned that in November 2019, Stockdale was trying to find a way to exit the building when he had attempted to hide between book stacks at the library after closing hours.

And in late December 2019, the defendant tried to blend in with a group of "peers" who were leaving a unit inside the facility, the judge said during Thursday's hearing.

At the Feb. 1 hearing, Forchione ruled that Stockdale will not be able to present a sanity defense at his trial in May. A psychologist found the defendant was clinically sane when he was charged in the shootings.

The letter from Heartland said Stockdale's "current level of functioning, which is more stable, better allows for him to carry out any potential behaviors or plans he may have."

Heartland staff is recommending "that the least restrictive environment for (Stockdale), while considering the community safety, is the Stark County Jail," Forchione said.

Forchione said he had to consider whether Stockdale is a flight risk, "and I have a duty to protect the public."

Other incidents also have been cited by Heartland.

In October 2019, Heartland staff said Stockdale had "made statements to the barber that with this new haircut, he resembled his cousin, and if he were able to get keys to the facility, he could walk out," Forchione said, citing a previous court entry.

'Doing well'

Defense attorney Eugene Cazantzes asked the judge to keep Stockdale at the Heartland facility.

He noted the incidents cited by Heartland staff occurred in November and December 2019.

"Jacob has done well (at Heartland) and he has progressed," Cazantzes said. "... From being disheveled and nonverbal to now he is showered and he's clean-shaven.

"He participates in group therapy," the attorney added. "He goes to mock trial and he not only takes medication but he gets supervision to make sure that he takes that medication."

"I would have some concerns about whether or not he's able to maintain his competency," Cazantzes said of Stockdale being placed at the jail. "I think the Jacob that is referred to in the Feb. 3 letter is not the Jacob that is appearing in front of us today."

'Damn if I do, damn if I don't'

Forchione said both the prosecution and defense raised valid points.

"Heartland is more qualified than this court to understand the true risks that exist by (Stockdale) remaining at Heartland prior to the trial," he wrote in a new court entry. 

Citing the allegations of Stockdale killing his mother and brother, and when paired with "his behavior throughout this process, it's got me very concerned about a flight risk," the judge said.

Stockdale's medical and treatment needs will be brought to the attention of Stark County Sheriff George Maier, Forchione said. Stockdale will be taken there soon.

Forchione said he didn't rule out the possibility of returning the defendant to the mental health facility if necessary.

"This is one of those I'm damn if I do, damn if I don't," Forchione said, noting the defendant initially was sent to Heartland to be restored to competency, which has been achieved. "But I have to consider the public's interest and public safety."

 

https://www.cantonrep.com/story/news/2021/02/11/judge-moves-jacob-stockdale-jail-because-hes-possible-flight-risk/6719013002/

[smittykins]

I was actually looking this up the other day to find out if there were any new developments.

ETA:  and I still have their “Family Manual” bookmarked.  That’s still some major WTFery.

Edited February 14, 2021 by smittykins

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think his brothers or father would likely help him out if he did escape. I have a feeling they’ve all forgiven him of his sins (murdering his mom and brother) and probably don’t want him going to jail.