Abortion at 32 Weeks

[PraiseDog]

My heart goes out to this woman - what courage she had to tell her story.  Also my respect for the medical professionals who have the courage to help women who need these procedures, in spite of all the hateful obstacles.

[paganbaby]

3 hours ago, jozina said:

The medical research that would need to be done for more drugs to have clear safety profiles in pregnancy wouldn't be ethical unfortunately. Without humans taking things while pregnant and comparing the results with pregnant women in similar situations who haven't been given the medication you just don't get the clear data you'd want in any other situation. Animal research only gets you to a certain point, often making things look less safe than they are. I've had to take a medication during pregnancy without clear evidence about the safety, had to prescribe to pregnant patients and desperately wish I could give them more information about the risks versus benefits but I've also done medical research. It's a catch 22 and were men the ones who carried babies I honestly do not believe that would be any different.

This is correct, but how is turning the real world into what amounts to an undocumented clinical trial the solution? The result is that the legal system, instead of medical science, winds up handling the issue.

https://www.propublica.org/article/most-drugs-not-tested-pregnant-women-anti-nausea-cure-why-thats-a-problem

Quote

Fewer than 10 percent of medications have enough information to determine their safety for prenatal use, the CDC notes. Off-label use of a drug during pregnancy thus becomes a kind of unregulated, unmonitored clinical trial. “We learn on the backs of [pregnant] women while pretending we don’t experiment on pregnant women,” said Ruth Faden, director of the Johns Hopkins Berman Institute of Bioethics. “But in fact, we do.”

 

[sparkles]

It's a tragic story and even more tragic when you consider what will happen to women in her position once there are no more Dr. Herns left. 

[VelociRapture]

13 hours ago, Khan said:

Perhaps if pregnancy wasn't viewed by so many as a 'consequence' of sex (which is evil and sinful unless your are married) it would be more acceptable to terminate. Gotta punish those sluts,  don't ya know?

Hell, most of America doesn't even allow the right to die for adults. Life is precious. Needless suffering is so often avoidable if it weren't for other people and their religious convictions. 

Womens medicine needs to improve.  Much of it is torturing us for no reason. We have virtual colonoscopy exams for men. Women get smashed breasts for mammograms and painful transvaginal ultrasounds.

I've had three transvaginal ultrasounds during this pregnancy. For me, they weren't that bad. I also have a great Ultrasound Tech and a fantastic Doctor who made sure they used a ton of lube and were very gentle. I feel very fortunate for that because I can see how it could be incredibly uncomfortable for others - especially if you're forced to have one before undergoing an abortion. That's just unnecessary and so incredibly cruel.

12 hours ago, lawfulevil said:

I read that one of the problems with testing the safety of drugs for pregnancy is that it's ethically really dodgy to set up the study.

I read this article when it came out. Heartbreaking.

This is the exact reason why. It's ethically immoral for them to perform studies on pregnant women because it's not just the mother who can be affected. Plus, I don't know how easy it would be to find a decent amount of pregnant test subjects willing to participate. I know I wouldn't want to risk it.

The only drugs that have studies performed are the ones facing lawsuits due to potential side effects. That's how Diclegis, the anti-nausea medicine in taking, came to be classified as Class A. It was proven there was no link and the medicine was safe... But that wouldn't have happened if the lawsuit wasn't filed to begin with.

-----

My heart goes out to this woman and her husband. I can honestly say I would make the same choice they did if I was ever faced with that situation. I love my child too much to allow them to suffer needlessly. 

I hope this couple is able to heal with time and, one day (if they want), they are able to welcome a healthy and happy child into their lives. I also hope that our current politicians eventually wake the fuck up and realize they're causing more damage and trauma than necessary. Almost every woman facing a late-term abortion is only doing so due to severe medical complications - they deserve far more compassion and respect to be shown to them than they have received from many politicians thus far.

[dramallama]

Why I Fly 3,400 Miles Every Month to Perform Abortions in Texas

[season of life]

The part about internalizing anti-choice rhetoric is so true, even for me.

[polecat]

This poor woman and her husband. I can't imagine what a heartbreaking situation that must have been.

It's even more upsetting to think of future generations who might have no one to help them when they find themselves in similar situations. 

 

 

[Toothfairy]

On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 5:10 PM, dramallama said:

It's not taught at most medical schools, because politics/controversy.  Medical students who want to learn how to perform abortions have to seek out those opportunities for themselves.  Combine that with the fact that choosing to be an abortion provider is choosing to make comparatively little money (for a doctor) and to risk your life on a daily basis while facing constant stalking/harrassment threats, and I think it's clear why there's a huge shortage of providers in most of the US.  Those who choose to do it anyway are heroes, in my eyes.

This is sad. Abortion is apart of reproductive health

On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 11:18 AM, dramallama said:

Why I Fly 3,400 Miles Every Month to Perform Abortions in Texas

Religion and politics should stay put of women's health choices. It makes me sick that abortion is so hard to get. It also makes me sick that the government is doing this. It only affects poor women specifically black and hispanic women. I live in a state where abortion is so easy to get. Most clinics are in rich neighborhoods. Texas needs to stop this bs.

[Toothfairy]

On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 8:41 PM, Jucifer said:

I wish every anti choice person would read this.

I wish they could understand the harm that happens when their beliefs are made into laws.

Women deserve to make their own medical decisions just like men do.

Got it, anti choice people?

Good.  

 

 

I read a story about a Texas woman who was force to carry a dead fetus inside her due to these stupid ass laws. She almost died. They don't fucking care. I hate how this country is being ran by rich racist sexism men.

I always find it amazing how a lot of European countries such as Sweden don't have their problem. Women can get abortions for free and walk into any hospital to get one (correct me if I'm wrong) No questions asked.

[uber frau]

Ah,no. Abortions in Europe might be covered by the health care system but gestational limits are at least as strict, if  not stricter than in the US.

Europe is not a homogeneous mass-there are places where it's flat out illegal to get an abortion, places where abortion is available  in extremely limited situations,and places where abortion is fairly easily available within gestational limits but I think it's incorrect to assume late abortion is easiky available for the majority of women in Europe.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-liberal-europe-abortion-laws-come-with-their-own-restrictions/278350/

 

 

[Wenny]

At my UU church we have once a month a member suggested donation offering plate, (Like we collect for the homeless shelter, PP or someone's local gofund me) and I am soooo suggesting Dr.Herns Clinic

[Foudeb]

9 hours ago, uber frau said:

Ah,no. Abortions in Europe might be covered by the health care system but gestational limits are at least as strict, if  not stricter than in the US.

Europe is not a homogeneous mass-there are places where it's flat out illegal to get an abortion, places where abortion is available  in extremely limited situations,and places where abortion is fairly easily available within gestational limits but I think it's incorrect to assume late abortion is easiky available for the majority of women in Europe.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-liberal-europe-abortion-laws-come-with-their-own-restrictions/278350/

 

 

A woman in Ireland died of septicaemia recently because they refused to abort her (dying, unviable, from-a-wanted-pregnancy) foetus.

[elliha]

17 hours ago, Toothfairy said:

I read a story about a Texas woman who was force to carry a dead fetus inside her due to these stupid ass laws. She almost died. They don't fucking care. I hate how this country is being ran by rich racist sexism men.

I always find it amazing how a lot of European countries such as Sweden don't have their problem. Women can get abortions for free and walk into any hospital to get one (correct me if I'm wrong) No questions asked.

Abortion is free in Sweden even for foreigners. It is allowed for any reason until 18 weeks. Between 18-22 weeks it is legal after an application where the individual woman's situation is considered. Often the reason is deformities or social problems/young age that prevented the detection of the pregnancy. Almost all women who apply are granted an abortion. After 22 weeks it is only legal if the child is dead or incompatible with life but most of the time I think a standard induction/c-section is performed because this does not require an application but can be performed for medical reasons after a decision from a doctor. The abortion described would require an application but would be granted as far as I can see as a non-medical person. I know one person who had an abortion at about the same stage for multiple deformities incompatible with life. 

What would I do myself? I don't know and I don't think I can know not having been in this position but my view is that the decision should be made from what is best for the individual woman and I don't think I would be able to have an abortion at this stage even for a baby who will not survive. It might be selfish but I would do what I felt was best for me, the surviving party. If the discovery was at a much earlier stage I would make the choice to have an abortion to save my body from unnecessary strain but at 32 weeks a couple extra weeks would not matter to me.

[Chevreuil]

22 hours ago, Toothfairy said:

I read a story about a Texas woman who was force to carry a dead fetus inside her due to these stupid ass laws. She almost died. They don't fucking care. I hate how this country is being ran by rich racist sexism men.

I always find it amazing how a lot of European countries such as Sweden don't have their problem. Women can get abortions for free and walk into any hospital to get one (correct me if I'm wrong) No questions asked.

We have free abortion in Canada, no questions asked (in theory, I'm sure people hit roadblocks in some provinces. PEI has no abortion clinics, leading women to have to go out of province which can be problematic due to some provinces not accepting women from other provinces. I have also heard there were restrictions in new Brunswick that make getting an abortion very difficult) I have had friends who have had abortions here, in Quebec, and it was free, they just called and asked for an appointment to terminate a pregnancy (I think the one here is a private clinic but the government pays them? I use the same clinic for birth control and having them install my iud was free as well but the iud itself was not. I have provincial Insurence and it came to 80$ for mirena. I wish birth control was free here)

As for late term abortions, I tried looking it up and I guess it is not funded here and if a person needs one, they are referred to the US. According to one article, Quebec is actively searching for someone to perform them but has yet to find someone. 

[Toothfairy]

5 hours ago, elliha said:

Abortion is free in Sweden even for foreigners. It is allowed for any reason until 18 weeks. Between 18-22 weeks it is legal after an application where the individual woman's situation is considered. Often the reason is deformities or social problems/young age that prevented the detection of the pregnancy. Almost all women who apply are granted an abortion. After 22 weeks it is only legal if the child is dead or incompatible with life but most of the time I think a standard induction/c-section is performed because this does not require an application but can be performed for medical reasons after a decision from a doctor. The abortion described would require an application but would be granted as far as I can see as a non-medical person. I know one person who had an abortion at about the same stage for multiple deformities incompatible with life. 

What would I do myself? I don't know and I don't think I can know not having been in this position but my view is that the decision should be made from what is best for the individual woman and I don't think I would be able to have an abortion at this stage even for a baby who will not survive. It might be selfish but I would do what I felt was best for me, the surviving party. If the discovery was at a much earlier stage I would make the choice to have an abortion to save my body from unnecessary strain but at 32 weeks a couple extra weeks would not matter to me.

This is so amazing. America sucks. I suspect a lot of rich American women travel out of the country to get abortions. Maybe even to Sweden. The culture is so different. I wish we were like Sweden. 

7 minutes ago, Chevreuil said:

We have free abortion in Canada, no questions asked (in theory, I'm sure people hit roadblocks in some provinces. PEI has no abortion clinics, leading women to have to go out of province which can be problematic due to some provinces not accepting women from other provinces. I have also heard there were restrictions in new Brunswick that make getting an abortion very difficult) I have had friends who have had abortions here, in Quebec, and it was free, they just called and asked for an appointment to terminate a pregnancy (I think the one here is a private clinic but the government pays them? I use the same clinic for birth control and having them install my iud was free as well but the iud itself was not. I have provincial Insurence and it came to 80$ for mirena. I wish birth control was free here)

As for late term abortions, I tried looking it up and I guess it is not funded here and if a person needs one, they are referred to the US. According to one article, Quebec is actively searching for someone to perform them but has yet to find someone. 

I read in certain parts of Canada abortion is hard to get. There are Americans trying to tell Canada what to do regarding abortions. Do you know how many weeks a woman can abort? 

[elliha]

Just now, Toothfairy said:

This is so amazing. America sucks. I suspect a lot of rich American women travel out of the country to get abortions. Maybe even to Sweden. The culture is so different. I wish we were like Sweden. 

I have never heard of any Americans but Polish women do sometimes. I think our country is like any other, great, good, OK, bad and terrible things. I know that Americans often find Sweden rigid and that it is extremely hard to make friends. I don't think the latter part is completely unfair, we can be a bit stand-offish and need a lot of warm up to go from acquaintance to friend. 

[Toothfairy]

19 hours ago, uber frau said:

Ah,no. Abortions in Europe might be covered by the health care system but gestational limits are at least as strict, if  not stricter than in the US.

Europe is not a homogeneous mass-there are places where it's flat out illegal to get an abortion, places where abortion is available  in extremely limited situations,and places where abortion is fairly easily available within gestational limits but I think it's incorrect to assume late abortion is easiky available for the majority of women in Europe.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-liberal-europe-abortion-laws-come-with-their-own-restrictions/278350/

 

 

Most abortions take place during the first 12 weeks. Very few take place after the second trimester. Wow Germany has a three day waiting period. But the culture is still very different. Europe doesn't view the fetus like Americans do. Countries like Norway and Denmark treat women better. America treats women like shit.

[Chevreuil]

1 hour ago, Toothfairy said:

This is so amazing. America sucks. I suspect a lot of rich American women travel out of the country to get abortions. Maybe even to Sweden. The culture is so different. I wish we were like Sweden. 

I read in certain parts of Canada abortion is hard to get. There are Americans trying to tell Canada what to do regarding abortions. Do you know how many weeks a woman can abort? 

It depends on the province. 24 weeks in Ontario, 23 weeks in Quebec, 20 in Alberta and British Columbia, 16 weeks in Manitoba and new Brunswick, 15 weeks in Nova Scotia, newfoundland and PEI, 14 weeks in Saskatchewan (from this article http://o.canada.com/news/national/abortion-in-canada-breaking-down-the-law-policies-and-practices which is a bit dated since some provinces have recently changed policies, most notably new Brunswick and pei)

PEI very recently started providing abortions in the province itself http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/new-brunswick/abortion-access-new-brunswick-pei-1.3515841 

It also talks about the problems experienced by those living in new Brunswick. 

[dramallama]

4 hours ago, Toothfairy said:

This is so amazing. America sucks. I suspect a lot of rich American women travel out of the country to get abortions.

That's what many did before Roe v. Wade in 1973.  Unavailable in your state?  No problem, take a long weekend vacation to another state.  Illegal nationally?  No problem, hop on a plane to another country.   Safe abortion will always be accessible to wealthy women.  It's the rest of us that need silly things like laws and SCOTUS cases to protect us from back alley butchers and the knitting needles/wire coat hangers of desperation.

[dramallama]

Good news today from the Supreme Court on Whole Woman's Health v. Hellerstedt.

The Supreme Court’s Abortion Decision Is An Unmitigated Disaster For Abortion Opponents

[RosyDaisy]

Very good news indeed!

[ADoyle90815]

21 hours ago, Toothfairy said:

Most abortions take place during the first 12 weeks. Very few take place after the second trimester. Wow Germany has a three day waiting period. But the culture is still very different. Europe doesn't view the fetus like Americans do. Countries like Norway and Denmark treat women better. America treats women like shit.

That's true, in America, women are considered incubators, not human beings. Fortunately, the SCOTUS realizes that women are in fact, human beings, and upheld Roe v Wade.

[imokit]

In the UK the abortion deadline depends on which part of the abortion act you're using: 24 weeks unless foetal disability or threat to mother's life, if either of those are used then there is no limit.  An abortion for foetal disability or to protect the life of the mother can be performed at any time regardless of gestation.  The law very deliberately does not specify what comes under those categories and there's been controversy over people having late term abortions due to cleft palates and club feet being argued as severe disability (playing devils advocate they can be used indicators of something more serious).

[Criscat]

First, story.

2nd, I think part of why late term abortions are so controversial is the ethics---meaning that like everything, humans want to see just how far they can go to the edge on this. Words and definitions of words (I.e health of the mother) is basically so broad that for a time it was anything goes. It's kind of impossible to narrow, which is problematic in of itself.  While I am pro-life, I think the toothpaste is out of the tube in terms of Those done in the first trimester, it isn't going back in. 2nd and third trimester abortions should be a very rare. I think it's not so much the people who need it for actual medical reasons that worry me, it's the people who say that it's their right up to 40 weeks to have one that make me nervous where the moral/ethical line is. Because if that true,     What's to stop someone at some point to move the goal post to newborn? 

 

Anyway....my musings. 

[Toothfairy]

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 9:40 PM, dramallama said:

That's what many did before Roe v. Wade in 1973.  Unavailable in your state?  No problem, take a long weekend vacation to another state.  Illegal nationally?  No problem, hop on a plane to another country.   Safe abortion will always be accessible to wealthy women.  It's the rest of us that need silly things like laws and SCOTUS cases to protect us from back alley butchers and the knitting needles/wire coat hangers of desperation.

Exactly. Why won't idiots like antichoicers realize this. Banning abortion and closing down PP only affects poor and middle class women. Rich women can still get safe abortions. Even politicians take their daughters to get abortions. People against abortion have abortions.

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 2:58 PM, imokit said:

In the UK the abortion deadline depends on which part of the abortion act you're using: 24 weeks unless foetal disability or threat to mother's life, if either of those are used then there is no limit.  An abortion for foetal disability or to protect the life of the mother can be performed at any time regardless of gestation.  The law very deliberately does not specify what comes under those categories and there's been controversy over people having late term abortions due to cleft palates and club feet being argued as severe disability (playing devils advocate they can be used indicators of something more serious).

Isn't it free in the UK? 

16 hours ago, Criscat said:

First, story.

2nd, I think part of why late term abortions are so controversial is the ethics---meaning that like everything, humans want to see just how far they can go to the edge on this. Words and definitions of words (I.e health of the mother) is basically so broad that for a time it was anything goes. It's kind of impossible to narrow, which is problematic in of itself.  While I am pro-life, I think the toothpaste is out of the tube in terms of Those done in the first trimester, it isn't going back in. 2nd and third trimester abortions should be a very rare. I think it's not so much the people who need it for actual medical reasons that worry me, it's the people who say that it's their right up to 40 weeks to have one that make me nervous where the moral/ethical line is. Because if that true,     What's to stop someone at some point to move the goal post to newborn? 

 

Anyway....my musings. 

Newborns can survive outside the womb. Most late term abortions are due to health of the fetus or mother. A 20 week old cannot survive on its own. I never heard one at 40 weeks.