Religious kids "more selfish" according to Chicago U study - Merge

[moodygirl86]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/children-from-religious-families-are-more-selfish-and-unkind-than-godless-youngsters-100547273.html#ePLDDA2

 

Personally I'd say it's more the other way round - that the religion is just a magnifier and that a person is generally selfish/kind/judgmental/easygoing by nature anyway, This probably influences how he or she interprets the teachings in their Bible/Koran/Torah/other holy book, as many holy texts are open to interpretation; as opposed to religion "making" someone that way.

 

What's everyone else's thoughts on this research?

[Season of life...]

I agree with you--religion seems to magnify underlying personality traits, for good or ill.

I went to school with a preacher's kid, and she walked the walk without being judgmental of others. She was a genuinely lovely person, and the time I spent with her and her family are nice memories for me. 

Another classmate was a liar who enjoyed seeing others suffer, especially if she had helped to bring on the suffering. She came from a very pious family who never treated me with kindness. We weren't friends for long.

My sister-in-law became born again as an adult and is insufferable to be around. According to my husband this is right in line with who she was before she joined the church. She has learned nothing, and uses her belief to denigrate and judge all around her. 

In my personal experience, those who are the most unkind are unhappy with themselves and many times use religion as a weapon: "I may not have a new car, or a nice house, or stamps in my passport, but I can out pray and out pious you since that elevates me above you sinners and I will feast in heaven while you burn". Snarkily paraphrased from a conversation with my dear SIL. I added the out pray and pious, but the rest was all her.

In my experience it doesn't matter what religion or belief one carries--a good person will be a good person and find a suitable path for themselves whether religion is in the equation or not. Good works done for the sake of helping others without looking for cosmic brownie points are possible both with and without a religious mindset-- I believe people can't help showing who they really are through their actions.

Somewhere in all of that I rambled off topic a bit. I'm sorry to write such a long reply, but your post really got me thinking, @moodygirl86. 

 

[princessmahina]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/children-from-religious-families-are-more-selfish-and-unkind-than-godless-youngsters-100547273.html#ePLDDA2

 

Personally I'd say it's more the other way round - that the religion is just a magnifier and that a person is generally selfish/kind/judgmental/easygoing by nature anyway, This probably influences how he or she interprets the teachings in their Bible/Koran/Torah/other holy book, as many holy texts are open to interpretation; as opposed to religion "making" someone that way.

 

What's everyone else's thoughts on this research?

Hmm. I'm not sure I believe it. Going off my experiences in Catholic school-- there were some kids who were crazy selfish, had been spoiled as children, but who went to church frequently. They didn't listen to anything the priest said whatsoever, just played with their hair. They called themselves religious, but couldn't tell you anything about what Jesus commanded in the Bible. Then again, there were others who really desired to help others, even if it meant they went without. 

I really think it depends on what you follow (like, whether or not you follow the prosperity gospel), how you interpret Scripture, and how you were raised. I would think there are a lot more factors than just one's religion.

[Palimpsest]

A better article: http://news.uchicago.edu/article/2015/11/05/religious-upbringing-associated-less-altruism-study-finds

Children from religious families were less likely to share with others than were children from non-religious families. A religious upbringing also was associated with more punitive tendencies in response to anti-social behavior. The results were at odds with the perceptions of religious parents, who were more likely than non-religious parents to report that their children had a high degree of empathy and sensitivity to the plight of others. “Our findings contradict the common-sense and popular assumption that children from religious households are more altruistic and kind toward others. In our study, kids from atheist and non-religious families were, in fact, more generous,” - See more at: http://news.uchicago.edu/article/2015/11/05/religious-upbringing-associated-less-altruism-study-finds#sthash.RWOCLO4h.dpuf

The whole study costs $30+ on line and I don't want to spend that much but I'd be interested in the methodology.

I don't find the results that surprising. 

[AmazonGrace]

Children completed a test where they shared stickers with others - and watched short animations in which one character pushes or bumps another, either accidentally or purposefully.

After seeing each situation, children were asked about how mean the behavior was and the amount of punishment the character deserved.

Well I'm sure religious kids differ but if you spent your suggestible early childhood days hearing adults read Holy Scriptures about people who should be stoned to death and who will burn in the fiery pits, it might be that kids bumping each other doesn't seem half that bad.

[moodygirl86]

Interesting observations everyone.

 

Also, I notice that the kids being surveyed were between five and 12, so with the younger end in particular, the results could be kind of biased as little kids tend to be still quite self-centred in lots of ways anyway. Not because they're bad or horrible people; just that when you're that young, your sense of empathy is not yet completely developed. By 12, I'd expect someone to understand the fundamentals of being respectful and considerate of others' feelings; five, not necessarily. At five, you're not even young yet; you're still brand new to the world and still trying to make sense of your world. Some five-year-olds are very mature and sensitive for their ages of course; but the average five-year-old is probably going to be a mix of sometimes naughty, sometimes good.

[AmazonGrace]

That wouldn't mean that the study is biased if the groups of kids are of comparable age.

[Black Aliss]

Having grown up fundie, the article held no surprises for me. Fundie kids can be mean and judgmental and excluding even to other fundie kids.

[Palimpsest]

Well I'm sure religious kids differ but if you spent your suggestible early childhood days hearing adults read Holy Scriptures about people who should be stoned to death and who will burn in the fiery pits, it might be that kids bumping each other doesn't seem half that bad.

From the abstract:

In the study both religious and non-religious children recognized bumping and hitting as not optimal behavior.  The children from religious homes were more punitive when asked about what the consequences should be for bad behavior.

The study acknowledged and controlled for the fact that the older children (both religious and non-religious) were more willing to share.  It didn't change the fact that the religious children were less altruistic as a group.

The religious parents in their self-reports assessed their children as scoring higher on altruism and empathy than the non-religious parents.  However, in the tests the children from non-religious homes scored higher on the generosity and empathy tests.

So when it comes to positive social behavior the children from non-religious homes scored higher.

I'd say the findings indicate that religious parents may be mistaken in thinking that religion will make their children generous, sensitive and empathetic.  That is actually consistent with what I have observed, especially with Fundies.

A very kind person is sending me the article so that I can look at the methodology.  Thank you! 

[AmazonGrace]

I think it might come down to differences in parenting styles.

If you're a fundie, you tell your kids that they have to do the right thing because

A) God will reward you if you do

B ) God will punish you if you don't

C) because I'm your father and you have to do what I say because God will reward you if you honor your parent and punish you if you don't

 I've seen more than one blog in which the fundie parent says it's not that important to let the kids know the reasons why something is forbidden or bad behavior and in fact they should learn to obey without questioning, because religion. Just do it because I say so, because God says so. So there.

In atheist families they can't drag God's authority into the issue and might actually have to spend some time trying to make the kids understand why sharing is a good thing and how the other person feels when you treat them like badly etc.

And I think kids who understand the whys and wherefores have a good chance to develop better empathy skills because that's largely what empathy is all about, not obeying a set of rules but understanding how others feel.

 

[Coldwinterskies]

One confounding factor in this is that being an atheist is still very socially stigmatized in American society, so that means that the kind of parents who choose to reject the "normal" path and raise their kids atheist probably are different than the type of people who are content to go with the flow of conventional American Christianity. It's possible that this empathy is more a result of one of the qualities that makes someone likely to question and reject the prevailing religion in society than really a direct result of the belief systems themselves. 

Looking at how self-absorbed the Duggar family is, though, I do feel that people like them have the attitude that since they believe in Jesus their space in Heaven is safely reserved and they don't need to care about anyone or anything more than that. I think it was quite a shock for Jill and Jessa once they left the family cocoon and started to get feedback from normal society about some of their selfish and self-absorbed behavior (like the incident with the pay it forward coffee). 

[nellautumngirl]

“Our findings contradict the common-sense and popular assumption that children from religious households are more altruistic and kind toward others."

Why is that a common-sense assumption? Why should a person be nicer just because they believe in a god? Weird.

[older than allosaurs]

“Our findings contradict the common-sense and popular assumption that children from religious households are more altruistic and kind toward others."

Why is that a common-sense assumption? Why should a person be nicer just because they believe in a god? Weird.

Maybe by the same logic Doug Wilson uses to explain that Christian women are prettier than heathens and apostates. And not to highjack this thread, but strong stomachs might want to check out his latest on rape apologetics.

[EyeQueue]

“Our findings contradict the common-sense and popular assumption that children from religious households are more altruistic and kind toward others."

Why is that a common-sense assumption? Why should a person be nicer just because they believe in a god? Weird.

I think maybe it's not so much that people expect others to be nicer because they believe in a god, but perhaps more the flip side: that if you *don't* have religion, you are immoral because what is stopping you from murdering, raping, robbing, etc.?

The study findings make sense to me especially considering some strands of Protestantism that dictate that if you believe the correct things, your actions don't matter one bit as far as your salvation goes. So why bother with nice stuff like sharing, because you're going to heaven anyway because of your faith and correct beliefs.

[PartriarchydefyinValkarie]

Honestly, I can say this is true as I have observed it in three 20-somethings (my age). The example is Christmas. When especially Christian's are supposed to be even more giving than your average heathen. J, R and K are all hyper evangelical kids. I see them maybe three times a year even though R has no job and still lives at home and has never held a job due to her being *too good* to work in Fastfood or something like that, btw she has no work experiance either. So, they sought me out to do a gift exchange at the church and I was like, Sure (Lol channeling my inner-Jill). J even told me he was getting me a Starbucks gift card so I sprung for one for him as well. So, the day comes and what happens?  J has nothing for me, R says she forgot but remembered to tell me how she blew close to 500 dollars on dresses, shoes, ect the other day, and K well he said he'd get back to me on it. After that dissapointment, one of my 'heathen Athiest' friends called me up and said they were stopping by my house with gifts. I was amazed, I never had said for them to do such and had allready gotten them a nice array put together. Also, every year is the same! I have to say, in my experiance,  this study is true. They aren't as giving, kind, or even thoughtful ((btw, R also met J and I to go see Frozen and conviently forgot her money)) as my other friends. This year they are getting candy and a card. Or maybe I should just give each a mustard seed? lol.

[AmazonGrace]

One confounding factor in this is that being an atheist is still very socially stigmatized in American society, so that means that the kind of parents who choose to reject the "normal" path and raise their kids atheist probably are different than the type of people who are content to go with the flow of conventional American Christianity. It's possible that this empathy is more a result of one of the qualities that makes someone likely to question and reject the prevailing religion in society than really a direct result of the belief systems themselves. 

 

Yeah not all of the kids were from the US, though.

The kids were from Canada, China,  Jordan, South Africa, Turkey and the United States.

[roddma]

I dont get how someone being Christian or religious =good, law abdiing trustworthy person, and i've witnessed this attitude even in my parents as well."So and so is good Christian so we should support their business." Even in the 21st century, guess many people think religious people can't be deceptive c, act 'ungodly', unsympathetic, creating a false security which is the reason for the study. Look how deceptive the Duggars are.
I also think, generally, people use religion as an excuse for bad behavior claiming they will be 'forgiven.

[AmazonGrace]

Yeah for some people it's the religious equivalent of a get out of jail free card. "So I molested my sisters but Jesus forgave me, so why are y'all mad at me anymore?"

[St.Clara]

Speaking from the perspective of someone who works with children aged 1-5, I find it very important to accept and acknowledge that healthy children will mostly be selfish during their first years on this planet. This does not mean that they should not be introduced to the idea that, if everybody shares what they have with others, everybody will be better off in the end - they definitely should. But it is very important to go slow and easy on them and not shame them for the fact that they want all the toy cars for themselves. This is only natural, as natural as the fact that, in the beginning, they are unable to walk or talk. It should always be your first priority to love and cherish them just the way they are. While there certainly are all sorts of parents among the religious people, it does make sense to me that a significant number of them would expect their children to be "good" and act in an altruistic way before they are developmentally able to authentically do so. I would not be surprised if, as a result, the healthy moral development of many of these children was slightly or even notably impaired. A child has to be allowed to be selfish in order to become altruistic and empathic, just as they have to be allowed to talk "incorrectly" in order to learn to talk correctly in the end.

Besides, in my experience, regarding the ethical development, it is particularly important for children to have good role models. Even if the children themselves may not yet be capable of acting up to the standards they witness, they are definitely impressed by them, and the impact will, later on, be very visible. While I would not call into question that many religious parents may be excellent role models, it is imo obvious that quite a few struggle with the fact that the rigid moral rules they are trying to follow prevent them from healthily fulfilling their own very human needs. So, most of them will here and there „work around the rules“ - in most cases probably not as spectacularly as Josh Duggar did, but still in many seemingly insignificant ways. Children are very capable of noticing these instances, and as we all know, they will always rather emulate our behaviour than follow our verbal instructions (if the two do not match).

That is why I think that overly rigid moral standards are very harmful. If they are impossible to follow for all but a few very „saintly“ individuals, they will do more damage than good. If we have mercy on ourselves and on our children, we will all end up being more considerate and empathetic people who are capable of kindly lending a helping hand to our neighbour in need.

[Alicja]

This makes a lot of sense in my case. I go to school with a lot of fundie-lite kids, and on social media, they're ALWAYS bragging about the good Christian things they do on their mission trips. It irritates my Catholic soul so damn much.

"6 “Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them; for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2 “So whenever you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be praised by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your alms may be done in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you." (Matthew 6:2-4)

ETA: I also go to school with several devout Muslim girls (they wear hijab and eat halal) and several Orthodox Jewish kids; I've never noticed this attitude from them. They talk about going to religious youth conferences but that's it. Weird.

[Rachel333]

The idea of religion as a magnifier doesn't really make sense if you're talking about kids. It could be that adults with more selfish tendencies are more likely to embrace religion, but this is comparing kids who were brought up in religion vs kids who were not.

Maybe religious parents make less of an effort to teach their kids certain values because they assume that religious teaching covers it, while non-religious parents make a point out of teaching ethics.

It's an interesting study anyway.

[polecat]

I think it makes sense. 

 

Many religions (not all) teach people that they're special for being religious -- they're God's favorites. Christian children (because this is my realm of experience) are often told they are separate from "the world," they are taught that they are different from the heathen (who are going to hell), etc. So why would they care about those heathens anyway? There's also an element of "Pray for stuff you want," again, in some types of Christianity. Why should Joey donate money to the homeless when the homeless could just pray for what they need? And if the homeless' people aren't getting homes and their basic needs met, well, then, it's just God's will. 

 

When it comes to certain sects of Christianity, selfishness is deeply ingrained in the very fabric of the religion. 

 

Disclaimer: I am a Christian -- I'm not making blind accusations, nor am I implying or saying that all brands of Christianity are selfish. I can't speak for other religions because my knowledge of them is more superficial and not lived/experienced.

 

[Antimony]

For those who wanted the methodology, Cell publishes their articles as available HTML text. PDFs might cost (but I don't know, I have researcher access to all of this). 
 

Experimental Procedures

Jump to SectionResultsDiscussionExperimental Procedures  Participants  Procedure  Religiousness Measures  Dictator Game  Moral Sensitivity Task  Maternal Education  Child Dispositional MeasuresSupplemental InformationReferences

Participants

5- to 12-year-old children (n = 1,151, mean (M) age = 8.29 years, SD = 2.17 years, n = 559 females) were recruited from local schools in six countries around the world: Chicago (USA), Toronto (Canada), Cape Town (South Africa), Istanbul and Izmir (Turkey), Amman (Jordan), and Guangzhou (China) (Table S1).

Jump to SectionResultsDiscussionExperimental Procedures  Participants  Procedure  Religiousness Measures  Dictator Game  Moral Sensitivity Task  Maternal Education  Child Dispositional MeasuresSupplemental InformationReferences

Procedure

Children completed a moral sensitivity task programmed in E-prime 2.0 and presented on ASUS T101MT Touchscreen computers and administered in their native language by trained researchers, as well as a dictator game, in the laboratory of each local university or in small rooms adjoining classrooms in each school. Parents completed religiousness measures, a sensitivity to justice measure [30] and an empathy measure [31] for their child, as well as demographic information. Written informed consent was obtained from all parents, and verbal assent was given by all children. All procedures were approved by each local Institutional Review Board.

Jump to SectionResultsDiscussionExperimental Procedures  Participants  Procedure  Religiousness Measures  Dictator Game  Moral Sensitivity Task  Maternal Education  Child Dispositional MeasuresSupplemental InformationReferences

Religiousness Measures

Religiousness was assessed in three ways. First, parents of participants were asked their religious identification (e.g., Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.) in a free response question. Parental religious identification was then coded into Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, agnostic, spiritual, multi-theistic, other, and no answer. From the frequency distributions, three large groupings were established: Christians, Muslims, and not religious. Beyond parental identification, caregivers also completed the Duke Religiousness Questionnaire (DRQ) [32], which assesses the frequency of religious attendance rated on a 1–6 scale from never to several times per week (frequency of service attendance and at other religious events), and questions regarding the spirituality of the household (1–5 scale; see DRQ). Average religious frequency and religious spirituality composites were created, standardized, and combined for an average overall religiousness composite.

Jump to SectionResultsDiscussionExperimental Procedures  Participants  Procedure  Religiousness Measures  Dictator Game  Moral Sensitivity Task  Maternal Education  Child Dispositional MeasuresSupplemental InformationReferences

Dictator Game

In this task, children were shown a set of 30 stickers and were told to choose their ten favorite [6]. They were then told “these stickers are yours to keep.” Children were instructed that the experimenter did not have the time to play this game with all of the children in their school, so not everyone would be able to receive stickers.

Jump to SectionResultsDiscussionExperimental Procedures  Participants  Procedure  Religiousness Measures  Dictator Game  Moral Sensitivity Task  Maternal Education  Child Dispositional MeasuresSupplemental InformationReferences

Moral Sensitivity Task

In this computerized task, used previously with children in both behavioral and functional neuroimaging studies [19], a series of short dynamic visual scenarios depicting interpersonal harm (e.g., pushing, bumping) was presented.

Jump to SectionResultsDiscussionExperimental Procedures  Participants  Procedure  Religiousness Measures  Dictator Game  Moral Sensitivity Task  Maternal Education  Child Dispositional MeasuresSupplemental InformationReferences

Maternal Education

As a metric for socioeconomic status, parents were asked to specify the level of education of the mother.

Jump to SectionResultsDiscussionExperimental Procedures  Participants  Procedure  Religiousness Measures  Dictator Game  Moral Sensitivity Task  Maternal Education  Child Dispositional MeasuresSupplemental InformationReferences

Child Dispositional Measures

The Questionnaire of Cognitive and Affective Empathy (QCAE) [31] to assess children’s empathy and the justice sensitivity inventory [30] to measure children’s sensitivity to injustice were reported by parents

[roddma]

I also feel sorry for kids under 5 expected to be selfless,an even pre-teens and teens will exhibit that behavior of not wanting to share. You teach them gradually. I recall Michelle telling Josie the whole world doesnt revolve around here an she was like 4? I think we all have a degree of selfishness for survival. My philosophy is: The only one who can look after you is you. No else will do that for you, but if you can help without hurting yourself do it, and becasue it's the humane thing to do.

[Criscat]

Its been said already that the major flaw in the study is the wide range of kids in the study. Whoever was in charge of the study doesn't know their child development. Kids 5-10 are generally "selfish" when it comes to their needs and wants. true empathy doesn't develop till late teens. Doesn't mean they don't have empathy, just isn't their first go to emotion. It's like the Maslow hierarchy of needs...so many fundies are struggling with shelter needs that pleasures and manners are not high on their list of things to worry about. :/