Religion Vs. The Flag = idolatry

[syntex72]

Listening to a group friends who are ultra conservative, Obama bad, talking the other day I was struck by something I can only think would be a contradiction. The conversation went something like this "Obama bad, God doesn't like change, Obama is really bad, God said Obama was bad, I served in the military, Obama still bad, God is great, Jesus saves, Jesus hates the poor and I LOVE THE FLAG."

I highlight the last part because that is where I was struck with a realization; How can you be a Christian and worship a flag? By the very definition of idolatry hold a flag in such high reverence is blasphemous. Am I wrong? (in thinking this I know I am grammatically)

i·dol·a·try

īˈdälətrē/

noun

noun: idolatry; plural noun: idolatries

worship of idols.

synonyms: idolization, fetishization, fetishism, idol worship, adulation, adoration, reverence, veneration, glorification, lionization, hero-worshiping

"the prophets railed against idolatry"

extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

"we must not allow our idolatry of art to obscure issues of political significance"

synonyms: idolization, fetishization, fetishism, idol worship, adulation, adoration, reverence, veneration, glorification, lionization, hero-worshiping

"the prophets railed against idolatry"

Origin

Middle English: from Old French idolatrie, based on Greek eidÅlolatreia, from eidÅlon (see idol) + -latreia ‘worship.’

Translate idolatry to

Use over time for: idolatry

[syntex72]

P.S. I know you served this country and the flag is a symbol of that service. So please dont get your knickers in a bunch over this post. Remember you severed freedom, country and love of your people, not a symbol.

[DaisyD]

Well, as someone who did serve this country in uniform, it's not really a worship thing. Maybe it's just me, but it is a symbol that brings up thoughts of those who paid the price for freedom. Very strong emotions, honestly. Very weird for the girl who grew up skipping certain words in the pledge, and sometimes even exercising my right not to recite it.

That being said, I was shouted down by my uber conservative in laws, not long ago, because I said that I find the trampling of the flag so much more offensive than burning. I was compared to a terrorist for this statement (by people who have known me for nearly 2 decades, and never served themselves). So, yes, it does seem to border on idolatry for some people.

Just keep in mind that, for a lot of people, the flag represents those that died and is a bit like a headstone or a treasured keepsake in that way. Many people also see it as a way to show patriotism, which is a big deal these days for more people than it used to be.

[FoxyMoxie]

The flag stuff is so so so weird to people outside the US. It's not like we don't have symbols for people who have died in combat either! I mean, why not use the poppy as a symbol of that for instance?

For me personally, I am a Christian anarchist so do see devotion to a flag and indeed nationalism and patriotism generally as idolatrous. Also, people 'dying for freedom' is such a nebulous phrase and has been used to justify all sorts of breaches of international law and human rights. I do not for a moment suggest that all armed forces members are bad people, and I support proper pensions and medical care for veterans. However, all people die for is the military industrial complex - the people manufacturing and selling arms do not care if your country win or lose, they care about making money from your armed forces' deaths.

I have family in the armed forces or former military, and also those in the arms industry. They are still evil industries, I would go as far as saying Satanic. There's no Satan's Hidden Fortress like the very un-hidden arms fairs and weapons deals between countries.

[DaisyD]

The Dick Cheneys of the world are evil. Companies that exist solely for the waging of war are up there with lobbyists in my book. I do believe that the wars since WWII have, for the most part, been for someone's economic gain. That doesn't lessen the sacrifice in my mind. Maybe that's contradictory.

FTR I do have a similar emotion towards the poppy. Many people in the US wouldn't get the reference though. I'm fascinated by history, so I know a lot about it. Unfortunately "Hitler was evil. We fought him. Oh and there was a world war before that too." is about the extent of what we're taught about it in school.

[sophie10130]

I think what confuses me the most is that the United States is built upon the foundation of the separation of church and state. While really that means nothing in this country because there IS no separation of church and state except for the fact that we don't have a national religion and we have religious freedoms (sometimes), I feel like most Christians shouldn't love the government as much as they do because it's technically a secular entity. But, I feel like the folks praising the flag and getting their panties in a twist about flag burnings (which are legal and in fact the correct way to dispose of a flag if it is dropped on the ground) are white Christians. Kinda strange when this country in its by-laws is secular.

[Walking Cat Bed]

I'm also a military veteran, and while I see the American flag as significant, it's a symbol. Flags are meant to identify nationality; if I see that my Uber driver has, for example, an Indian flag in the car, I assume they are from or have family in India. The American flag is attached to so much jingoism and faux-patriotism, though -- like Daisy mentioned, there's a near reverence of this piece of fabric that is disproportionate to how it's treated. I'm personally more bothered by the flag being worn to tatters or worn as clothing, because one way to properly dispose of the American flag is to ceremonially burn it.

Fun fact -- if you have a flag that's torn or damaged, you can take it to a local Veteran's Affairs office or medical clinic. They'll have it ceremonially destroyed.

[mebeforee]

Look into American Civil Religion. It's a studied phenomenon where people treat the U.S. and many of its attributes as if they were holy things. Think "it's my constitutional right!" And some of the vehement rage that comes out over flag burnings and the like - people treat them like sacred things. Revisionist history about founding fathers, too. It's pretty interesting imho and if you're curious you should look into it.

[Kittikatz]

Lurking for years, first time posting.

First off, I am not American, although I have been privileged to travel to several cities in the US over the years. While I have found most of the people to be kind and gracious, the way many Americans seem to adore their flag is quite unique (at least in my experience of the world).

This really struck me several years ago when I found myself in New Orleans over Christmas. There was some sort of Christmas hymn sing in Jackson square. From what I recall, there was a huge flag lit up and more patriotic songs sung than religious hymns or carols. It seemed like the secular was merging with the religious, which I found a to be a little jarring.

To echo something of what mebeforyee said (sorry - can't figure out how to quote correctly), I have also been surprised by how many Americans seem to believe that the founding fathers were all or mostly highly Christian men who espouced a biblical world view, when even light reading of history texts and the constitution shows that this was far from the case. Thank you to mebeforyee for giving me a name to Google about this - I didn't realise it was a recognised phenomenon :)

[syntex72]

Look into American Civil Religion. It's a studied phenomenon where people treat the U.S. and many of its attributes as if they were holy things. Think "it's my constitutional right!" And some of the vehement rage that comes out over flag burnings and the like - people treat them like sacred things. Revisionist history about founding fathers, too. It's pretty interesting imho and if you're curious you should look into it.

History is an interesting creature in general. You mention revisionist, but I have often questioned where it is re-visioned or "point of View o the 'winner'." meaning those who record history record what 'they' want and leave out what they feel is not important. I think this is more of an ethnocentric Idea/POV than an omission of events.

[CloakNDagger]

The military industrial complex and the evangelical industrial complex are often closely tied. Just look at how Vision Forum actually promoted stuff like D-Day and Iwo Jima even though privately Doug Phillips is a Tool would have not wanted his boys serving in the modern military. It was just too important to appeal to that segment of the market. There were those in the group that thought it was quite hypocritical.