Judge sends children to jail for refusing to lunch with Dad

[Mama Mia]

The kids have since been released, due to public outcry, but :wtf:

www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/w ... their-dad/

A Judge sent 3 children, aged 9, 10 and 15 to a Juvenile detention center for refusing to have lunch with their Dad. She also completely bullied them and told them they would stay there until they had a " healthy" relationship with their Dad.

I've read different versions on what past issues were with Dad, or between mom and dad. I don't think it matters in this case. He could have been an abusive asshole, or a model dad and the mom was alienating them by saying awful things -- . doesn't matter. I hope this judge is fired.

What's scary is that this story went viral, and in the age of social media, that's always a hope --but what if it hadn't caught the eye of the public? How is it right for a judge to have that much power?

[Wingnut]

Thank you for the link. That story made my blood boil! IF the father wasn't abusive and IF the mother swayed the children's opinion (IF because they/we don't know what has happened) then at most the mother should be accountable. No judge should ever act in that manner. Grrr

[Anny Nym]

Wait, what...?

You can put a 9-10 year old into a juvenile detention center?!

I didn´t know that this is even possible, with the exception failed states and primitive dictatorships.

[polecat]

Parental alienation syndrome is real, and it can have horrible consequences. A young lady in my area killed herself a few years ago because of it.

I don't know if what's going on here is PAS, but I worry that it could be. And what this judge just did is utterly disastrous. The kids weren't actually sent to jail but to this place. https://www.oakgov.com/village

Yes, it does have a detention facility but they were in the shelter care area. I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes to the kids, though. Either way, the judge really screwed up. The family sounds like they could use some intensive counseling to get through whatever is going on, PAS or abusive father or whatever. It's clearly not a healthy environment for the children. Putting the kids in shelter care or jail has got to be counterproductive.

[doggie]

the ex husband finally told his story and if it is true then it makes her look pretty bad. so don't go all killer till you read both sides. besides the kids are not there now.

[Mama Mia]

Wait, what...?

You can put a 9-10 year old into a juvenile detention center?!

I didn´t know that this is even possible, with the exception failed states and primitive dictatorships.

You would think so, wouldn't you?

It seems to me it's become more and more acceptable in the U.S. to put younger and younger children into detention centers. At least from what I recall. It may just be that the Internet makes it more widely known. I'm in my early 50's. When I was young there was a local 12 year old who was sent to Juvenile detention for rape. But that was very, very unusual, and for a very serious crime - iirc it was rape with an attempted murder. But in general, it was only teens who were sentenced. Younger children received counseling and, rarely, probation. They weren't felt to be old enough to really understand the consequences of their actions. If it was a very violent crime they might have been sent to a mental health facility. But definitely 9 and 10 year olds didn't go to jail.

This case is ridiculous regardless of the age.

I don't care about the husbands side or the mother's side. It doesn't matter. He could be the best father in the world. It's still completely horrible to send kids to detention ( or whatever sanitized word they want to use . Fuck. Even if it was Dusneyland it would be wrong to " sentence" the kids to go !)

Children are human beings. Not possessions of their parents.

[VelociRapture]

the ex husband finally told his story and if it is true then it makes her look pretty bad. so don't go all killer till you read both sides. besides the kids are not there now.

I know nothing about either parents or the family. My issue is entirely with the Judge - what adult in their right mind punishes the children in this type of situation?! If the mother is the reason they refused to have lunch with him, then punish her! If the father is an abusive asshole, then punish him! Don't punish the kids though!

(The fact that the kids were there at all is wrong. Its nice that they aren't there anymore, but its complete bullshit that they were there in the first place)

[Firiel]

I know nothing about either parents or the family. My issue is entirely with the Judge - what adult in their right mind punishes the children in this type of situation?! If the mother is the reason they refused to have lunch with him, then punish her! If the father is an abusive asshole, then punish him! Don't punish the kids though!

(The fact that the kids were there at all is wrong. Its nice that they aren't there anymore, but its complete bullshit that they were there in the first place)

*Haven't read his side yet, but would like to because the story interests me

Yes, this. If the mother turned the kids against their dad (and horrible, vindictive parents of both sexes have turned kids against the other parent), then she is a horrible woman. It's not the kids' faults, though. The children should not be punished for that.

[Mama Mia]

I know nothing about either parents or the family. My issue is entirely with the Judge - what adult in their right mind punishes the children in this type of situation?! If the mother is the reason they refused to have lunch with him, then punish her! If the father is an abusive asshole, then punish him! Don't punish the kids though!

(The fact that the kids were there at all is wrong. Its nice that they aren't there anymore, but its complete bullshit that they were there in the first place)

Exactly! And it really annoys me when people act like the kids only being there for a short time makes it ok. Adults forget that children don't have the same sense of time and permanence that adults do. Being taken away from their home for a short period can be extremely traumatic. They don't know when they are going back, they didn't even know IF they would be going home. This is what gets me in trouble sometimes on some of the CPS threads. It's not that I am against CPS removing kids when needed -- it's that I think they should be really sure there is a high risk for severe abuse before they remove . Because kids don't understand being removed for a few days the way an adult does. So doing everything possible to provide the services in home is really important. IMHO. Unless they are pretty sure the kids will be removed long term. A temporary removal to detention or foster care isn't the samee as sending a child to camp or to a relatives for a week - both events that are planned ahead of time and have a known duration.

In any case. This particular situation was really messed up. And the judge shows a complete lack of awareness of child development.

[Wingnut]

That is why I was using IF. I don't know the Dad's side. What made me mad was how the judge treated the children. They should not be punished for either of the parent's actions. All she accomplished was frightening children instead of figuring out why they felt that way and then deciding how to help the family from there. Which, IMO, does not include yelling at them, belittling them, sending them to a detention center or a camp.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Even if the dad was a saint and the mother was the devil, there os no excuse for a judge to completely disregars the best interests of the children and blatantly bully them. According to the article she told them that they would have to pee in public at the detention center. How fucked up is that? She was punishing kids for being "defiant" and trying to break their will.

PAS is a controversial label but I have seen it. We have had a few cases here where the alienate parent got sole custody with no access to the favored parent for several months and was allowed to have the kids forcibly taken to Texas or California to a specialized treatment center. It is obviously a drastic solution, but even that does not compare to a detention center.

[Mama Mia]

Even if the dad was a saint and the mother was the devil, there os no excuse for a judge to completely disregars the best interests of the children and blatantly bully them. According to the article she told them that they would have to pee in public at the detention center. How fucked up is that? She was punishing kids for being "defiant" and trying to break their will.

PAS is a controversial label but I have seen it. We have had a few cases here where the alienate parent got sole custody with no access to the favored parent for several months and was allowed to have the kids forcibly taken to Texas or California to a specialized treatment center. It is obviously a drastic solution, but even that does not compare to a detention center.

Ugggg.....I can see the reasoning, I guess, behind not giving the child access to the favored parent for awhile ---- but it still seems wrong. It's like NOBODY puts the actual children - who are real live human beings -- as the first priority. :cry:

[tapdancer493]

What should have happened: the mother should have been held in contempt of court and the children should have been placed either with the father OR with other relatives, but NOT in any sort of detention facility with the threat, from a judge, that they could and would remain there until they had a court-ordered healthy relationship with their father.

Honestly, this pisses me off to no end. My parents are divorced, have been since I was five (I'm 22 now). My father and I are not currently on speaking terms. My mom always attempted to get me to visit my dad. When he'd come to pick me up, she'd push me out the door. My dad got remarried, had two more kids, and treated me like a (poorly-treated) guest when I'd visit rather than his daughter. My dad frequently arrived hours late to pick me up, and would call the police when I wouldn't go with him after he had gotten into a fender bender or arrived three hours late. One time he arrived with a police escort. The police never made me go.

When I was 11, my dad said I could decide when I wanted to see him. I was 11, going through puberty, in a delicate social situation (no friends where my dad lived/lives, and he lived/s two hours away), and hated my step-mom, so I rarely went.

All this to say, my mom never needed to resort to any sort of parental alienation to change my relationship with my dad. He made me feel unwelcome and unloved. He has his new family that I've never really been a part of. I only very recently (as in, since May) found out the extent of the financial problems my dad caused for my mom. She's taking him to court one last time for everything he owes her, upwards of $100k. It was quite a shock to me.

What I'm trying to say is that maybe this dad was abusive, maybe this mom is manipulative, or maybe it's both (that's what I'd guess). Maybe these kids just don't feel a connection to their dad. Maybe his remarriage made them feel differently. My relationship with my dad changed the moment he got engaged when I was eight, and only deteriorated from there.

These kids have enough shit going on between these two parents. They REALLY don't need a judge punishing them for their parents' problems.

[tapdancer493]

Also, here's the dad's side of the story: http://observer.com/2015/07/exclusive-i ... -with-him/

[doggie]

I agree other arrangements should have been found though the dad was leaving the next day.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I read the Observer article and it was exactly what I suspected.

The public outrage has nothing to do with the mom losing the kids. It has everything to do with the judge bullying the kids, sending young children to a detention center and punishing the children for "defiance". These kids are acting like alienated kids. Punishing them for being caught in the crossfire between parents is cruel.

[dianapavelovna]

Exactly! And it really annoys me when people act like the kids only being there for a short time makes it ok. Adults forget that children don't have the same sense of time and permanence that adults do. Being taken away from their home for a short period can be extremely traumatic. They don't know when they are going back, they didn't even know IF they would be going home. This is what gets me in trouble sometimes on some of the CPS threads. It's not that I am against CPS removing kids when needed -- it's that I think they should be really sure there is a high risk for severe abuse before they remove . Because kids don't understand being removed for a few days the way an adult does. So doing everything possible to provide the services in home is really important. IMHO. Unless they are pretty sure the kids will be removed long term. A temporary removal to detention or foster care isn't the samee as sending a child to camp or to a relatives for a week - both events that are planned ahead of time and have a known duration.

In any case. This particular situation was really messed up. And the judge shows a complete lack of awareness of child development.

This is a really good point - and the judge in this case made comments about "I don't know how long you'll be there" & "You might be there til you're 18" (paraphrasing from memory there). Not to mention her going on about how they needed to have a healthy relationship with their dad for her to change her mind. I guess to this miscreant, having lunch with your estranged father in a courtroom cafeteria because a judge threatened you if you refused = healthy. Does she really think she can order people to have healthy relationships? 'Cos I've heard a lot of whoppers from judges, but that one would take the cake. :angry-banghead:

[Mama Mia]

Also, here's the dad's side of the story: http://observer.com/2015/07/exclusive-i ... -with-him/

If possible, I have even less sympathy for him, or the judge, after reading that!

The judge is pretty clearly upset about the kids not respecting her, it doesn't seem, to me, to have much to do with the actual children. Just that she can't stand that they aren't doing what she wants.

And the Dad? Also seems to not care about the children as individual human beings with thoughts and feelings. I don't doubt the mother is also horrid. These poor kids! I feel especially bad for the smallest children in a way - but on the other hand, I bet a detention/ shelter/ youth home is no picnic for a 15 year old- it would seem he would be completely out of his element. And that he could have gone to some awesome summer program at Standord - but instead all of the adults in his life put their pride before his needs. Disgraceful.

[moodygirl86]

Whatever the parents have done or haven't done, Gorcyca is completely unprofessional and outrageous. Being a judge shouldn't mean judgmental, which is what her "Charles Manson" and "IQ" comments were. In fact, she's supposed to be impartial and unbiased! She may well have her opinions about the behaviour of the divorced parents, but you DO NOT take that out on the innocent children. I don't care if she sent them to Alton Towers, to take pleasure from scaring them about what will happen to them there is bullying, plain and simple. Also, it's ridiculous enough that contact can be forced under pain of imprisonment anyway, but you DEFINITELY can't control how someone feels about it, which is obviously what Gorcyca wanted. And then to say their mother or her relatives weren't allowed to visit them, and the siblings weren't allowed any contact with each other inside? Evil. Thank God they're out, but it's complete bullshit that they were ever removed from their mother like this in the first place.

[RosyDaisy]

Inexcusable! WTF was that judge thinking! Those kids need counseling, not bullying and sent to detention.

[doggie]

Inexcusable! WTF was that judge thinking! Those kids need counseling, not bullying and sent to detention.

you got that right

[DGayle]

I believe the dad's abusive because he had no problem leaving the country with his kids in jail , after the judge said they were staying there until he said they could leave. How fucking CRUEL to do that. If my kids were being alienated form me, I'd rather then stay with their dad than to go to jail. How would that help them have a relationship with me? That dad doesn't care about his kids.

[DaffyDill]

I believe the dad's abusive because he had no problem leaving the country with his kids in jail , after the judge said they were staying there until he said they could leave. How fucking CRUEL to do that. If my kids were being alienated form me, I'd rather then stay with their dad than to go to jail. How would that help them have a relationship with me? That dad doesn't care about his kids.

I thought he now lives in Michigan?

Since then, the divorce was finalized and Mr. Tsimhoni has remarried and moved back to Michigan “in order to be next to the kids and mend the relationship with the kids.â€

http://observer.com/2015/07/exclusive-i ... -with-him/

The whole thing is incredibly sad really, because those kids are being scarred more and more. That judge should have disciplinary action taken against her. You cannot force the kids to love, like or get along with their father. Putting them in any sort of facility is heinous.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Here's a link to the full transcript of the court hearing: http://content.foxtvmedia.com/wjbk/pdf/ ... o_jail.pdf

It's even more horrifying than the news reports.

The kids had representatives who seem to have been pulled into the court for just that hearing, without any advance prep. Those lawyers didn't know the kids, didn't have a chance to review the whole case, and certainly didn't have a chance to do any research and make an argument that the judge didn't have the authority to send kids to Children's Village on this basis.

The judge said that she had wanted to do this previously, but the dad begged her not to. I'm not sure that it's as simple as the dad being able to say, "let my kids out". The judge said that she would need him to confirm that he was able to talk with the kids and that things were better.

The judge has NO insight into child psychology at all. The fact that mom urged the kids to meet with dad at court means nothing. They had been living with her for years, and had gotten a clear message that dad had hurt mom. Mom saying "talk to your dad" at court can't undo years of building a belief.

I'm concerned that the oldest child DID give a reason for not wanting to see his dad. He believed that he saw his dad hit his mom. Now, it's possible that she started yelling "call 911" when the dad hadn't done anything - similar things have happened in some of my cases. It's also possible that even if the dad had hit the mom several years before, he could still safely have visits with the kids now. Despite that, you have a 15 yr old who strongly believes that he saw his dad hit his mom, and who loves his mom and hates the idea that his dad would do that. Telling him that he's wrong, on the basis that there are no criminal charges or protection order and that the father has supporters, seems really off. Abuse often occurs without witnesses, and there are plenty of abusers who have friends and supporters. You also can't just order somebody to give up a firm belief. Somebody needs to sit down with the boy, go through his version of what happened, break it down with him, and let him know that he's not betraying his mother or approving of his dad's conduct that day if he agrees to speak to his dad.

With the younger kids - for starters, they are REALLY young, only 9 and 10. The whole thing must have been really confusing and intimidating for them. They see their older brother being hauled off, so of course they are going to be upset. Half the things the kids said were mumbled. They can't really be expected to happily go off to lunch with dad, when their brother was just taken away.

You can't order someone to have a healthy, loving relationship. It doesn't work that way. If it did, she could deal with all her cases by saying, "there is no reason for you to want to leave your spouse, who loves you and it trying really hard. I'm putting you in jail until you have a healthy, loving relationship."

[Mama Mia]

That Judge shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children. How can this be legal???