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Orthodox women rabbis are just uppity feminists


2xx1xy1JD

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That's basically the gist of this piece: blogs.timesofisrael.com/of-empowering-women-and-serving-god/

Here's some background (sorry for being long-winded, but otherwise this will make no sense to anyone who isn't familiar with Orthodox Judaism):

Orthodox Judaism has a ton of rules in general, including some rules about what men and women can and can't do. NONE of the commandments, however, say that a woman cannot be a rabbi. You won't find any mention of it in the Hebrew Bible, because rabbis didn't exist when it was written. There is stuff that says that women don't have all of the religious obligations that men do, but the traditional texts don't actually prohibit women who learn the same things as a man (which is something that is now accepted in the Modern Orthodox community) from being recognized as a rabbi.

The Orthodox establishment splutters and sounds horrified by the idea of woman rabbis, but they won't actually say that it violates halacha (traditional Jewish law) - because it doesn't, and they have no sources to say that it does.

Instead, they argue that it violates mesorah (tradition). www.rabbis.org/news/article.cfm?id=105753 Never mind that plenty of other traditional norms have completely changed, including the whole idea of educating women in the first place, or the fact that the tradition came out of a time period where women were generally deprived of rights in gentile society as well.

At one point, there were some progressive voices in the past that didn't have a problem with women learning more and doing more. Then, in 1975, leading American Orthodox authority Rabbi Moses Feinstein came out with a decision on a related issue where he brought up the whole notion of intention. Some things might be okay if an exceptional woman was doing it out of exceptional super-piety, but he suspected that the questions that he was getting were motivated by rabble-rousing feminists looking to attack traditional Judaism. Somehow, that line of thinking - which may have been somewhat understandable in 1975 when feminism was seen as radical and shaking up the established order - has become entrenched in Orthodox discussion. They didn't get the memo that it is no longer 1975, that female participation in all other aspects of life is now the norm (even among Modern Orthodox Jews) and that something that seemed normal up until the 1970s now seems completely sexist and bizarre.

No, this blogger, despite being challenged, is doubling-down on his claim that these women only want the title rabbi because they are rabble-rousing feminists.

Forget the fact that he doesn't know these women. Or the fact that he's not questioning how sincere male rabbis are. Or the fact that the woman (Karen Mock) that he quotes saying that this is "empowering" isn't actually Orthodox. Or the fact that any woman who wasn't committed to Orthodoxy would have had a far easier time simply going to the Conservative movement. Or the fact that there is a rule in Jewish law that you are supposed to judge others favorably and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Forget as well the fact that the status quo of only male Orthodox rabbis is actually disempowering to women. It's not that woman are looking to inflate their egos. It's that the community itself makes it clear that being a rabbi is a source of honor, that rabbis are due an extra measure of respect, and that all questions big and small need to be decided by a rabbi. That's a ton of power, in some ways far more than any secular authority since it reaches into every aspect of life, and it's all concentrated into exclusively male hands. It's not the women who made this a power struggle.

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It's not the women who made this a power struggle.

Amen, hallelujah! Those with power are loath to relinquish it to anyone!

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I was raised in Conservative Judaism and then fell into the rabbit hole that is Messianic Judaism and now I'm just a cultural Jew.

I struggle with the concept of a female Rabbi because to me and for me it doesn't fit in my pre-conceived biases. Yes I admit they are biases.

I have no issue w/ female teachers in a Synagogue setting but I flinch at the idea of a female Rabbi.

No real reason other than Tradition I suspect.

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I was raised in Conservative Judaism and then fell into the rabbit hole that is Messianic Judaism and now I'm just a cultural Jew.

I struggle with the concept of a female Rabbi because to me and for me it doesn't fit in my pre-conceived biases. Yes I admit they are biases.

I have no issue w/ female teachers in a Synagogue setting but I flinch at the idea of a female Rabbi.

No real reason other than Tradition I suspect.

I've had other women say this to me. Admitting that something just feels weird to you is fine. What bothers me is that this is what the objection to women rabbis boils down to - it's new and not traditional - and yet some people act as if it's a huge violation of the commandments when it's not.

I was raised (non-egalitarian) Conservative. Part of the reason that I became more Orthodox was that I liked the idea of looking at the sources and following the law without arbitrarily changing it (which was my issue with lifting the ban on driving on Shabbat). It's precisely because of that idea that the law matters that I can't stand the idea that a sexist position is being defended in the total absence of sources to defend it.

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Ah, 2xx1xy1JD , although I haven't gone to your source link, your post again reminds me of the intriguing parallels between Orthodox Judaism and conservative Lutheranism. Both value scholarship highly. Both defend traditional family values (as understood). Both see (at least this is my understanding) a clear division between the kingdoms of men here on earth and the kingdom of God on earth.

And now this.

... Orthodox Judaism has a ton of rules in general, including some rules about what men and women can and can't do. NONE of the commandments, however, say that a woman cannot be a rabbi. You won't find any mention of it in the Hebrew Bible, because rabbis didn't exist when it was written. There is stuff that says that women don't have all of the religious obligations that men do, but the traditional texts don't actually prohibit women who learn the same things as a man (which is something that is now accepted in the Modern Orthodox community) from being recognized as a rabbi.

The Orthodox establishment splutters and sounds horrified by the idea of woman rabbis, but they won't actually say that it violates halacha (traditional Jewish law) - because it doesn't, and they have no sources to say that it does.

Instead, they argue that it violates mesorah (tradition). www.rabbis.org/news/article.cfm?id=105753 Never mind that plenty of other traditional norms have completely changed, including the whole idea of educating women in the first place, or the fact that the tradition came out of a time period where women were generally deprived of rights in gentile society as well.

Paul -- who actually held a lot of women in high regard, if the reader pays attention to the number of times in various epistles where he compliments women in positions of leadership, or advises others to look to them for example -- said in ONE line in ONE letter that he doesn't permit a woman to teach, and Lutheran conservatives, Roman Catholics, [choose-an-ethnicity] Orthodox and others glom onto that like anti-female-rabbis glom onto tradition.

And the disdain shown toward any woman who seeks ordination is so similar. The women can't be pursuing an education and recognition because they feel the call (as Lutherans & others put it), nor however Jews believe their rabbis realize they're meant to be rabbis. Ohhhh, no -- it has to be a power grab, or just plain old caving in to the devil's sly machinations. NO, not even "sly," since women are so easily misled, the old devil just phones it in.

Wearing a prayer shawl or a clerical stole, these folks put the HYPE in hyperbole. It's why, though I'll always identify as a Lutheran, my beliefs have moved from what my people teach to something more and something less. It's also why the words of a pagan elder guide me in my dealings with everyday people who practice any religion meant for good: I will never make fun of them, the people in the pews, at the wall, in the community.

Their leaders and rule-makers are a whole 'nother topic, though. God knows our hearts. God knows who's attempting to carry out God's messages of love and doing good. More power to the Orthodox women who believe God wants them to become rabbis, to the Christian women who have the call to ministry. I'm not sure how Muslims and Buddhists, et.al., phrase it, but the same to them.

Thank you, 2xx1xy1JD, for bringing up this topic and now I'm off to read the link.

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I was raised Jewish (Reform, so we broke all the rules) and my Rabbi was female. My Hebrew School teachers were as well. There was one who was a lesbian and another who lived with her fiancé...

I'm an atheist now, but I had great experiences at that synagogue.

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There seem to be a lot of parallels between Orthodox Judaism and Roman Catholicism here too (the RCC, although using it differently, also goes by sacred tradition as well as Scripture).

MamaJunebug, I have been taught (by people who would know, but I have no knowledge of Greek myself) that Paul's comment on women not being permitted to teach is about a particular woman who was disrupting services by being noisy not being able to teach, but saying that she should listen to the preaching quietly. Given Paul's praise for female deacons and others in churches who would have been teaching, it cannot have been a general commandment against women teaching.

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I remember being 8 or 10, and thinking about the differences between me and my five brothers--I would grow up, get breasts, and be able to have babies. Plus I was smarter than any of them. All they got in return was a very funny looking extra flesh frill between their legs. Kinda pitied them. In college, coming across Freud's concept of "penis envy," I admit to having a good laugh.

But I also grew up in a church where the spiritual power belonged to males--THE PRIESTHOOD. . . . They had it, and I could only share it with a male relative--father, mate. (LDS)

I think once the stone age passed, and farming/herding came in, that men have been hard pressed to maintain *any* sense of usefulness at all, and thus grasp at any straw available to maintain a power status. As sheer muscle power becomes less and less necessary for survival, they cling harder and harder to those self awarded privileges.

I also think that the faith structure of the more conservative denominations gravitates toward obtaining and keeping power for the males. Again--they haven't much else in their favor.

I didn't leave the church of my childhood because of that, but it certainly played a part in choosing the faith I currently claim. I've been impressed with the Quakers since I was 14, a denomination where women have *always* been allowed leadership. Too, it tickles me that the *highest* job at a Friends' Meeting is Clerk.

More power to Rabbi Lila Kagedan, long may she live!

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From the article:

"But I always say, Judaism is not about rights. It’s about obligations. So that even if someone has a right to serve God in ways they are not required to, it doesn’t mean they always should. Especially if it has no tradition to it. It is more in line with God’s wishes to serve Him in the ways he commanded them to serve. Focusing instead on other even permissible service – instead of trying to find ways to improve their mandated service is in my view misguided."

It's true that Judaism tends to value obligated acts over optional ones. There are times when I find this appealing: for instance, the Jewish idea of charitable giving (tzedakah) is understood to be an obligation of justice to the poor rather than an extra credit, because-you-feel-like-it thing. But there are other times when this idea creates problems. Women are not prohibited from highly valued religious tasks like leading public prayer, etc.; but they aren't obligated to do so either. And "not obligated" quickly turns into "doesn't count when you do", which turns into "no one ever does," which turns into "not allowed."

This of course has nothing to do with whether or not the women are sincere -- to which the author of the article pretty much only says he doesn't believe them. (A man not believing women's explanations of their own actions? Never!!)

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Read the Times article.

Deism never sounded so good. (Only half-winking.)

Will read the Tablet article later today.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just saw a thread on imamother that shows just why Orthodox woman rabbis are needed: /www.imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=275574&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Rabbi Shalom Arush, of the Breslov Hasidic movement, apparently thinks that woman shouldn't meet with rabbis, ever. They should just put any questions in a letter. The context for this comment was a mentor of his facing sexual abuse charges. Yeah, it's hard to sexually abuse somebody who isn't there, but seriously? You're going to ask like your religious leaders are totally incapable of not raping women?

Seriously, though, in a community where there's both a fair bit of gender segregation and reasons why someone would need to speak to a rabbi, women rabbis are clearly needed, for reasons that have nothing to do with making a political statement or having an ego.

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It's garbage like this that convinces me that I'll never be Orthodox. As much as some Orthodox Jews like to trumpet that their Judaism is unchanging/the most authentic/the most true to the Torah, you only have to look at the Chumrah of the Month Club™ and the recent slide to the right of most Orthodox subgroups to see that just isn't the case. There's all kinds of documentation of women who considered themselves frum and were considered frum by their communities wearing pants forty or fifty years ago, or not wearing wigs, or (chas v'shalom) not insisting on chalav Yisroel. I own a photo from the early twentieth century showing two Hasidic Jews davening at the Kotel... right next to women, absent any kind of mechitzah at all.

It seems like a disturbingly large swathe of the Orthodox community is overwhelmingly concerned with externals- are the skirts long enough, does someone wear the "right" kind of kippah, is my neighbor doing something differently than I do- and completely ignoring the most fundamental Torah teachings about things like lashon hara, ahavas Yisroel, honesty, charity, common courtesy and basic respect for other people. Sure, congrats, you're all eating über kosher food and wearing your tzitzit out, but if you appear to have zero middos and treat people within and without like garbage, why would I ever want to be a part of that community? It's easy to be a saint in paradise, spending all your time surrounded by people who think like you, dress like you and act like you. It's how you conduct yourself when you encounter something different that's more telling to me.

The sad part is that none of this has anything to do with halacha, in which case my views are probably much closer to Orthodoxy than most people would expect. It's purely the fact that I'm not actually convinced that Orthodoxy as a whole is nearly as committed to the unchanging nature of halacha as they claim (just look at the typical Orthdox conversion process for a great example of adding to the law), and I'm disinclined to accept the authority of a community whose leadership, by and large, appears to have completely eschewed any commitment to bein Adom l'chavero (interpersonal ethics) in favor of near OCD levels of attention to bein Adom l'Makom (commandments dealing with the relationship between man and G-d). Thanks, but no thanks.

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