Chad Paine has attended Journey to the Heart SEVEN times

[Boogalou]

So, I was looking through old group shots of Journey to the Heart attendees and found some interesting things that we have not discussed.

 

Most notably Chad Paine has attended JTTH seven times that I counted: June 2013, May 2012, October 2009, October 2008, June 2008, October 2007, August 2007. This is a ridiculously enormous number of times.

 

Other Bateses and Bates spouses/courtees have also gone: Brandon Killeen on October 2009 and August 2009, Erin and Michaela Bates in March 2009 and even what’s his face who married Alyssa in April 2007.

 

Priscilla has also attended 7 times fo rJune 2011, September 2010, May 2010, September 2009 and September 2009 Verity journey and June 2009. Also on September 2007 with Anna and another Kellar

 

Ma Kellar got in on the action too on the mother’s journey September 2013

 

Pecan attended June 2010, September 2009 Verity Journey, September 2008 Verity, so "only" three times.

 

I may have missed some times that people went and I didn't notice them but I just thought it was interesting and provides further proof the Bateses are just as deep into ATI as the Duggars, and the spouses of the two families even more so.

 

Link to photos if anyone wants to peruse them livingthejourney.com/photos/journey-group-photos/nggallery/page/2

[anjulibai]

That's an awful lot, but it could just be because of how enmeshed his father is with the organization. Perhaps Chad was made a leader, like Jana and Priscilla have been?

[Jana814]

That's an awful lot, but it could just be because of how enmeshed his father is with the organization. Perhaps Chad was made a leader, like Jana and Priscilla have been?

Agree!

[SassyPants]

Journey is for males too?

Hey, I learned something.

[Mellanya]

Journey is for males too?

Hey, I learned something.

Same here. But look: iblp.org/programs/journey-heart

Many of the testimonies are men. Also, on the right side you can see the bar with "upcoming journeys". About as many for men as for women. I thought ALERT was the male equivalent of JTTH.

[actuallyjessica]

If he wasn't a leader or anything, I wonder why he was sent there... Hopefully it was because he was questioning his religious teachings.

His brother has publicly spoken about not agreeing with Gothard and he and his wife (who worked at the institute) seem to have branched out... So I'm holding out hope.

[nelliebelle1197]

He would not have been married off to Erin Bates if he was questioning. Gil would have never allowed that.

[jerkit]

I'm surprised his multiple JTTHs didn't brainwash the genuine sweetness out of him. I think it's hard to overlook how loving and attentive he is to Erin. It seems like a brainwashing camp like that would remove that from him and replace it with parroted patriarchal catch phrases.

[clueliss]

Just because they are listed as attendees does not necessarily mean they were 'attending' they could have been as was cited in the Duggar girls book, there as group leaders etc.

i have nothing on males attending.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I wonder what he did. Maybe its because he isn't a total dick like all fundie men are supposed to be.

[HereticHick]

Chad has blogged numerous times on his blog (which is searchable) about leading JTTHs.

For example, from June 2013:

"I honestly didn't think I would be headed up on a Journey to the Heart this week, and yet here I am in the Northwoods of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan with a group of guys. This program has always challenged me as I have led numerous Journeys of the years. God is always teaching me new things about Himself, how to respond to others, how to grow to more like Christ, and how to help others in times of need. The program really focuses on each person getting alone with God and growing in a personal relationship with Him!

Please pray for the two teams as we focus on seeking the Lord with all of our Heart!!"

[clueliss]

Likewise - Priscilla Keller prior to marriage was a known JTTH Leader. In fact, she was a leader JTTH of some sort when the 4 oldest Duggar girls attended the first time.

[Buzzard]

Same here. But look: iblp.org/programs/journey-heart

Many of the testimonies are men. Also, on the right side you can see the bar with "upcoming journeys". About as many for men as for women. I thought ALERT was the male equivalent of JTTH.

So what is the actual difference between ALERT and JTTH, other than physical labor? Why would you choose one over the other?

[Palimpsest]

So what is the actual difference between ALERT and JTTH, other than physical labor? Why would you choose one over the other?

Also, what is the difference between regular JTTH and Verity groups - other than the Verity groups seem to be co-ed? Are the Verity groups for training enforcers counselors?

Buzzard, my impression has always been that the male JTTH has been for "intellectual" preacher types and ALERT for the more physically active manly men types. At the lower levels it is spiritual and physical boot camp: Outdoor survival skills, endurance and some medical First Responder stuff - not unlike boy scouts with lots of extra God. At the higher levels of ALERT they get to learn some pretty high level stuff: They get their pilot's licenses, take scuba diving lessons, climb mountains, and so on. The Duggars have never admitted it, but I suspect John David spent a lot of time at ALERT, not just Joseph and Josiah.

I really can't prove it, but I also suspect that at the higher levels of ALERT they are not learning just the publicized Search and Rescue Team skills. It is a paramilitary organization, and we know these Fundies want to take over the world. I think they play around with a lot with weapons, and do more aggressive Survivalist and overt military-type training than they care to admit. But perhaps I'm wrong.

[formergothardite]

Just because they are listed as attendees does not necessarily mean they were 'attending' they could have been as was cited in the Duggar girls book, there as group leaders etc.

i have nothing on males attending.

Yeah, he was most likely a group leader, which means he did not show any signs of questioning Gothard's teachings. EXCEL came before JTTH and was just for girls, but I think it was a similar program. And bet they choose group leader for JTTH just like they chose the EXCEL group leaders. On the plus side it has been 20 years since I went to EXCEL and the people who attended it with me and were then asked back to be leaders are now no longer affiliated with Gothard. Several are still very fundie, though. So being a leader that many times doesn't mean that Chad won't start questioning how he was raised, but it also doesn't mean that he will question how he was raised.

[acheronbeach]

Woo, that IS a lot of Journeying...

That said, if I was a fundie kid, I'd probably enjoy JTTH. It's a chance to meet with new but not scary-different people, without your parents getting all in your business, you get some freedom to do what you want, you get to visit a different place, you don't have to change babies/cook tater tots/clean up... it would probably be like a vacation, despite the Gothard-ness.

[Buzzard]

Also, what is the difference between regular JTTH and Verity groups - other than the Verity groups seem to be co-ed? Are the Verity groups for training enforcers counselors?

Buzzard, my impression has always been that the male JTTH has been for "intellectual" preacher types and ALERT for the more physically active manly men types. At the lower levels it is spiritual and physical boot camp: Outdoor survival skills, endurance and some medical First Responder stuff - not unlike boy scouts with lots of extra God. At the higher levels of ALERT they get to learn some pretty high level stuff: They get their pilot's licenses, take scuba diving lessons, climb mountains, and so on. The Duggars have never admitted it, but I suspect John David spent a lot of time at ALERT, not just Joseph and Josiah.

I really can't prove it, but I also suspect that at the higher levels of ALERT they are not learning just the publicized Search and Rescue Team skills. It is a paramilitary organization, and we know these Fundies want to take over the world. I think they play around with a lot with weapons, and do more aggressive Survivalist and overt military-type training than they care to admit. But perhaps I'm wrong.

I cant stop thinking (that they think) ALERT is trade school for fundies! Probably costs as much

[TheJewAmongUs]

Could he have been there to supervise siblings?

[Elegant Mess]

Same here. But look: iblp.org/programs/journey-heart

Many of the testimonies are men. Also, on the right side you can see the bar with "upcoming journeys". About as many for men as for women. I thought ALERT was the male equivalent of JTTH.

Not only do they have sessions for young men and women, they also have father/son and mother/daughter sessions. I was unaware of the latter ones until I glanced at the JTTH website a few minutes ago.

[December]

Not only do they have sessions for young men and women, they also have father/son and mother/daughter sessions. I was unaware of the latter ones until I glanced at the JTTH website a few minutes ago.

Well now I know what I'm getting my mom for Mother's Day next year...

But in all seriousness, wow, I didn't realize how extensive these programs were. I'm kind of surprised they let in people outside of ATI (though it does list different prices). Considering how it appears they heavily discount JTTH for alums of it, does that mean it's encouraged to go multiple times? Or is it just likely if you get sent there once, you'll end up being sent multiple times to fix whatever perceived issue?

[Marilla-Cuthbert2013]

I am pretty sure he was a leader/facilitator, I remember reading his blog when he and Erin were courting (because I am a dork), and it seemed as though he was living up at Northwoods for for like a year (around 2011).

[halcionne]

Yeah, he was most likely a group leader, which means he did not show any signs of questioning Gothard's teachings. EXCEL came before JTTH and was just for girls, but I think it was a similar program. And bet they choose group leader for JTTH just like they chose the EXCEL group leaders. On the plus side it has been 20 years since I went to EXCEL and the people who attended it with me and were then asked back to be leaders are now no longer affiliated with Gothard. Several are still very fundie, though. So being a leader that many times doesn't mean that Chad won't start questioning how he was raised, but it also doesn't mean that he will question how he was raised.

This reminded me of an old article I found when I googled Tim Levendusky. The writer was quite even-handed, imo, which just makes the cult stuff that much more obvious. It's a little long, but it really demonstrated how far out Gothard and his activities are. http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/virg ... my-6404353

And now I'm wondering if you or anyone you remember from that time was mentioned in the article...

[nelliebelle1197]

I am pretty sure he was a leader/facilitator, I remember reading his blog when he and Erin were courting (because I am a dork), and it seemed as though he was living up at Northwoods for for like a year (around 2011).

I think you are correct.

[formergothardite]

This reminded me of an old article I found when I googled Tim Levendusky. The writer was quite even-handed, imo, which just makes the cult stuff that much more obvious. It's a little long, but it really demonstrated how far out Gothard and his activities are. http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/virg ... my-6404353

And now I'm wondering if you or anyone you remember from that time was mentioned in the article...

I was there very close to after that article was written.

It is one of the stranger sights in South Dallas: each day, when the weather is fair, 125 teenage girls stream out of the Ambassador hotel and cross the street into Old City Park.

The girls are dressed almost identically, in navy blue smocks and skirts and crisp, lace-collared blouses, their long hair cinched with bows or bands. All but a few of the teens are white.

Through the tall hedges surrounding the park, one can see the line of them curling like a white ribbon among the turn-of-the-century shops, homes, and artisans' sheds. They walk briskly, giggling among themselves, catching a bit of fresh air and exercise.

Then, after a half-hour of padding the park's circular paths, the girls round the hedge and return to the old hotel, entering two abreast. The big mahogany doors lock behind them.

I remember doing this and we would have people come out and stare and sometimes try to talk to us. We were not allowed to answer or talk to anyone. This was the only time we were allowed outside and if you did anything (like didn't have your bed made exactly like they told you or walked too quickly inside) you were punished by having this outside time taken away.

Some of those people were still there being leaders when I was there.

I could not stand this woman and her stupid song she forced us to sing all the time so she could stand up there and laugh.

Bernadine Cantrell, a woman with big hair and a thick Southern accent, initiated the day's topic: "Pursuing the practice of hospitality."

"We have had neighbors who moved into our neighborhood, and seven women were standing at the door with a pound cake," she says.

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She then leads the girls in a silly ditty, complete with hand motions. Some girls giggle at the line, "I was as happy as could be with my banjo on my knee." But all participate enthusiastically.

The effect is surreal--a room full of American teens putting their hands over their heads and making like a spreading chestnut tree.

[FundieFarmer]

I'm not wild about how much those websites look like government sites, in some senses. The seal-like logos are misleading and sound official enough that unsuspecting passersby would probably be like :pink-shock: if they delved a bit deeper.