Question for Americans - flags?

[crazyforkate]

I was browsing Buzzfeed today, which is one of my main productivity alternatives these days, when I discovered an article full of humorous "facts" about the US flag. It was kind of lame and I didn't think it was terribly funny, but a whole bunch of people were going apeshit in the comments. Now, normally I would dismiss someone who cares that much as a conservative uber-patriot or something, but it didn't seem to be a matter of one-upmanship or anything - people seemed sincerely, genuinely offended (and I mean REALLY offended). People brought up veterans and wars and Memorial Day being close by. To me, this was totally baffling, and it got me thinking.

Here in Canada, the Maple Leaf is really not a big deal. It's a nice-looking flag and we're proud of it, but if that article had been published about us, there might have been a bit of grumbling - not this kind of reaction, certainly. It is much more common, for example, to have the flag displayed in your front yard in the US. The only times I really see people display personal flags here are during Canada Day, some kind of important national event like Her Maj visiting, or a big international hockey game. (It might be worth noting that our current flag has only existed since 1965, and though some people howled about getting rid of its predecessor (essentially, Union Jack + red background), it was pretty much forgotten after a while and now only lives on in archives.) We also don't pledge allegiance to anything (though that too seems to vary across the US, for that matter).

We're both ex-British colonies with many linguistic and cultural similarities, but sometimes you can find some very profound differences.

So my question is - why is the flag SUCH a big deal in the US (or for that matter, patriotic symbols in general)? Is it because of the revolution? Because you've had it for 200+ years? Or other factors? Why does Obama get in trouble for not wearing a pin, for example? Is this kind of sentiment shared among most of the American populace, or is it more of a loud fringe group thing? (And it's not an American Thing alone - Denmark, for example, will cheerfully wave theirs at someone's birthday party, but I'll admit I'm not as up on their history.)

I'm not posting this to be snarky or anything - tbh, I was hesitant to even bring it up - but it's a topic that's honestly interested me for a while. Blame my inner Sheldon Cooper for this one. I'm sure vexillology is the highlight of all your weekends.

ETA: Non-Canamericans, feel free to chime in with your flag thoughts too. I concerned myself with these two countries because I know a bit about them, but would love to hear how national flags are perceived in other places.

[Mom-mouth]

I wish I knew the answer to this one. I never understood it myself. I was raised in a Baptist church and went to a Baptist church school until 4th grade (when I entered public school... talk about culture shock!). They were very big on the flag and never wearing it on clothes, folding it just right, right lighting, hanging it and storing it properly, etc. We pledged to the flag and then the Christian flag and then the Bible every. single. morning. And if you were late, you got to do it in front of everyone. It was just weird to me.

When I went to public school, the whole flag obsession wasn't that huge. I was shocked that no one pledged allegiance to the Christian flag or the Bible but mostly I was just in awe how blasphemous people could be about the flag... like wearing it on their clothes and such. I don't remember the thinking behind wearing it on the clothes is blasphemy though. I am sure it was something really stupid.

As I got older, and then we got into the 90's, and I got raped and got pregnant at 15, and ran screaming from the church... and then the Gulf War started, I noticed it a lot more... the whole flag obsession. Maybe I was naive and still living in my Christian bubble of a world, but I thought it was so bizarre that suddenly everything was red, white, and blue all over the place and everything was very much american flag themed.

I think people just went overboard with patriotism in an effort to back our nation. JMHO

[FundieliciousTaterTot]

I haven't researched this extensively but based on my limited education I believe that the reverence of the flag is multi-faceted but stems from its symbolism during and after the Civil War. I believe the Civil War remains the war that has the largest count of American casualties despite our decade+ long stint in the Middle East.

The flag naturally represents the military and basically is the national anthem (The Star-Spangled Banner). You can read a little bit of the American public's reverence for the military here in the context of supporting military spending: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arc ... ry/383516/

Formerly Texas (and perhaps other states?) laid down criminal charges for US flag burners until the Supreme Court declared this unconstitutional in the 1980s as a violation of free speech.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Another Canadian here. These are my thoughts/best guesses:

1. Yes, the history is much longer and therefore more symbolic. The Maple Leaf wasn't the symbol of battles at Vimy Ridge or Dieppe, for example. The biggest battles associated with it tend to be hockey games.

2. It's a relatively unifying national symbol (unless you are a flag burner, a JW or someone who still has a Confederate flag..) in a country where people come from different national and religious backgrounds. The whole melting pot idea is that a new national identity emerges, and the flag symbolizes that.

3. Flags are associated with military funerals. While Canada had casualties in Afghanistan, we haven't had the same scope of deaths of troops in conflict.

4. There are rules about the proper use of the flag in the US. I have no idea if the UK had any similar rules, but I know it's far more common to see the Union Jack on clothing than it is to see the Stars and Stripes.

5. Since our only neighbor is a superpower, Canadian identity and patriotism often takes the form of showing that we are different from the United States. So, if they are super-patriotic, we will look down on flag-waving and declare that we aren't into that sort of thing. So, in a weird way, NOT waving a Canadian flag can be a way of asserting Canadian identity. Unless hockey.

[Firiel]

American here.

I don't exactly know why, but I do think that in the US the flag is seen as synonymous to the nation itself in a way that may not be the case in many other nations. I mean, our national anthem is about the flag rather than about the nation itself. We've got a bunch of rules about displaying, caring for, and disposing of the flag. As 2xx1xyJD mentioned above, I think the association between the flag and fallen veterans contributes to that as well. Getting the flag that was used in your loved one's funeral (usually to cover the casket, right?) is a big deal. That kind of thing.

That being said, personally, I'm more offended by the bad jokes in that article than anything else, but I'm not a military person and I do stuff like go barefoot in church, so YMMV.

[CallmeChaCha]

2xx, your second point is interesting. I was born and raised in the US but grew up culturally Mexican (as Mexican as one can get in the US), and I've noticed that even the lot of us who were born and raised in the US like to carry and show off the Mexican flag. I've also seen this with other countries (Brazil, Spain, etc.). What would be interesting to find out is if these mother countries have similar flag-waving tendencies, or if it's a US thing and some of us just picked it up (minus the US flag).

I also don't understand the flag-waving. The only flag I have is of a sports team and it's fairly small, and sports team flags are also readily displayed, though not as much as US flags.

[Four is Enough]

American here. Grew up in the Great State of Maryland, where, incidentally, "The Star Spangled Banner" was written.. It is a matter of immense pride to bear the Stars and Stripes in a parade, procession, or even to display it on your house. There are rules... perhaps forms of etiquette, rather, in its display and even how to dispose of it.

The Stars stand for the states, of course. The red stripes stand for the blood shed to make this country free, and the white stripes for the purity (?) of its intentions, I believe. Could be wrong on that one.

It is to be handled with reverence/respect when it is displayed, and when it is put up and taken down. (Aside: for me, growing up Roman Catholic, it never seemed strange to me to attach this sort of care to the flag. Why? Because in the RC world, certain "sacramentals"... rosaries, blessed objects, etc. are handled with care and reverence. I would never wear my rosary around my neck as jewelry. It's specifically for prayer. Neither would I want to see my flag, symbol of my country, tattered and stained, or on the ground.)

That is why, when a flag is past its prime, it must be taken down and put away. You can give it to the Boy Scouts for proper ceremonial disposal. They burn them once or twice a year, depending on how many they get. (They are never to be simply put into the garbage.)

I get teary eyed every single time the National Anthem is played. When my kids were in band, and played it before sporting events, I nearly burst my buttons.. I guess I am a sappy and sentimental person, but I do take pride in my country, warts and all, and the flag is the symbol of that for me.

AFA Obama getting flack for not wearing a flag pin? That's so stupid. Just because many other Presidents HAVE does not mean that he MUST. Everybody knows who he is, even without the dumb flag pin.

FundielliciousTaterTot, I am editing here to add to your thoughts. The SSB was written during the shelling of Baltimore in the War of 1812, and I believe the flag has been a very potent symbol from the very beginning of that time. The Stars and Stripes took off very popularly.

I do remember reading some diaries of officers of the Confederacy during the Civil War, talking about the US flag and how it gave them pause to think they had to attack people bearing the flag. Many of them, graduates of West Point and so on, had sworn allegiance to that flag and that country.And now they were under another flag, sworn enemies of the US flag.

[VelociRapture]

My father was in the Marines during Vietnam. His father fought in the Navy during World War II. Mom's father was a member of the Army and Coast Guard. Both my Fiance's grandfathers were in the Army - one was on the front lines in Africa and Italy during WWII; the other was in the Army during the 1950's.

I can say, for my family personally, we do show a good amount of respect for the flag. It has a lot to do with the symbolism attached to it during military funerals and some very big military conflicts. I do think other posters bring up an excellent point when referencing the Civil War. It was an extremely bloody and horrific war and both sides had flags that have become symbolic of something.

Other than the Military connection, I've never really understood it either. Especially when its the uber-religious people who obsess over the flag. I've always been curious why it's ok for them to idolize the flag when the ten commandments state that no created thing (such as the flag) should be paid divine honor - the way some of the people react you would think they believe the Flag is God or something!

Don't be worried about asking these sorts of questions by the way. Some people may get all pissy about it, but most of us are open to discussion. :)

(And for the record, my Fiance's father received the flag from his father's funeral about ten years ago; they have it displayed in a beautiful triangular box in their home).

[2xx1xy1JD]

2xx, your second point is interesting. I was born and raised in the US but grew up culturally Mexican (as Mexican as one can get in the US), and I've noticed that even the lot of us who were born and raised in the US like to carry and show off the Mexican flag. I've also seen this with other countries (Brazil, Spain, etc.). What would be interesting to find out is if these mother countries have similar flag-waving tendencies, or if it's a US thing and some of us just picked it up (minus the US flag).

I also don't understand the flag-waving. The only flag I have is of a sports team and it's fairly small, and sports team flags are also readily displayed, though not as much as US flags.

In Toronto, we get a lot of communities waving their flags around certain celebrations or big sporting events. I remember living downtown near Yonge St. and constantly being woken up during the World Cup, because no matter what team won a game, supporters would drive up and down Yonge St. with flags waving and horns honking. Sometimes, it seems like people can see the flag as a symbol of their nationality even if they disagree with the current regime - I see this with the Iranian community.

Oh, one more thing about Canada: until relatively recently, many people saw themselves as connected to either the English or the French colonial background. The American had a revolution which dramatically set out a new philosophy and nationality, and broke the country away from Britain.

[Four is Enough]

My father was in the Marines during Vietnam. His father fought in the Navy during World War II. Mom's father was a member of the Army and Coast Guard. Both my Fiance's grandfathers were in the Army - one was on the front lines in Africa and Italy during WWII; the other was in the Army during the 1950's.

I can say, for my family personally, we do show a good amount of respect for the flag. It has a lot to do with the symbolism attached to it during military funerals and some very big military conflicts. I do think other posters bring up an excellent point when referencing the Civil War. It was an extremely bloody and horrific war and both sides had flags that have become symbolic of something.

Other than the Military connection, I've never really understood it either. Especially when its the uber-religious people who obsess over the flag. I've always been curious why it's ok for them to idolize the flag when the ten commandments state that no created thing (such as the flag) should be paid divine honor - the way some of the people react you would think they believe the Flag is God or something!

).

Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic. I am one of the only people I know whose families on both sides have been in the US since BEFORE it was the US... My husband's families came as immigrants up to three generations ago. When I met my husband, he was still living in a pretty much solid Ukrainian-Polish enclave, and they had "I am an American" day celebrations, complete with parades.

Other friends of mine identify as "Irish American" or "German American" for the same reasons... and their families, some of them, adopted the American way of life completely, shunning the "old country".

My husband's family kept many Polish traditions, and even the language alive, but I consider myself a "native American" since my family has lived on this continent for over 300 years.

Either way, the patriotism is there. I wouldn't call it "worshipping" the flag, but I would call it "respect."

[VelociRapture]

Perhaps I can shed some light on this topic. I am one of the only people I know whose families on both sides have been in the US since BEFORE it was the US... My husband's families came as immigrants up to three generations ago. When I met my husband, he was still living in a pretty much solid Ukrainian-Polish enclave, and they had "I am an American" day celebrations, complete with parades.

Other friends of mine identify as "Irish American" or "German American" for the same reasons... and their families, some of them, adopted the American way of life completely, shunning the "old country".

My husband's family kept many Polish traditions, and even the language alive, but I consider myself a "native American" since my family has lived on this continent for over 300 years.

Either way, the patriotism is there. I wouldn't call it "worshipping" the flag, but I would call it "respect."

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I meant that there are some people who are incredibly religious who place a huge emphasis on the flag as a symbol. It really is just the people who attempt to force their religious beliefs onto others - it just seems slightly hypocritical for those people to be spouting their beliefs left and right while treating the flag almost like a holy object.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. My brain is a bit fuzzy today. Lol!

I do understand what you're saying though and it sounds relatively normal to me. I think a lot of immigrants would keep some traditions, but latch onto other things that made them feel like they were more included in the overall community - since the flag is a tangible thing it was probably easy enough to make the connection. Not a bad thing at all and, thinking about your response, it makes a good amount of sense.

[sparkles]

Ever since I can remember, the flag has always been a big deal. In grade school (late 50s/early 60s) getting chosen to take the flag home over weekends, holidays and vacations was considered a high honor. Same for leading the pledge during assemblies. I've never been much for symbolism so the flag really means nothing to me and honestly, I don't quite get the fanatical devotion to it. I don't recite the pledge, I've never owned one, and I've never displayed one. That being said, I've never disrespected it and appreciate that it does have a lot of significance for many people, especially those in the military. So I've always found it a bit…funny? ironic? at how people who are so ostentatiously patriotic mistreat the flag. Immediately after 9/11, I couldn't believe the amount of abuse and misuse. It was a big thing to hang the flag on your car so that it flapped in the wind as you drove. Of course, this meant that these flags were in tatters in no time but this never seemed to bother anyone. Same with flags dragging on the ground, flying in the rain, left out overnight and so forth.

WEARING the flag is also a big one, but whether it's right or wrong depends on a lot on who's wearing it. County music stars seem to get a pass. Liberals, not so much. I remember back in the early 70s when Abbie Hoffman (leader of the Yippies, young people!) appeared on the Merv Griffin Show (old talk show, young people!) wearing a shirt that was either made out of an actual flag or made to look like it was made out of the flag. There was such a to-do over it that not only did the network, CBS I think, have the network president make a statement at the beginning of the show but they also went to a blue screen every time the camera was on Hoffman. It was so over-the-top bizarre, especially given that it was a very calm, very respectful interview.

[2xx1xy1JD]

American patriotism crosses religious lines. I know American Jews who will have deep respect for the flap and for specifically American celebrations like the 4th of July or Thanksgiving, in contrast to the lack of involvement in other holidays that have a religious basis (like Christmas). [Canadian Thanksgiving is a bit different - less emphasis on it in general here, plus it falls on the American Columbus Day, which is right in the middle of a bunch of big Jewish holidays so it gets lost in the shuffle.]

[The Duggar's Mohel]

I am also Canadian and while I'm very proud of my country and flag, I too don't take it to the extremes that my American friends do. (I did go to college in the USA and also lived in California for a few years)

At the risk of offending ant Americans here (and know this is not my intention) I feel the US symbols of patriotism are huge because some (not all) want to make sure everyone knows the USA is the BEST COUNTRY ON EARTH!!!! While most Canadians (not all) are pretty chill and know there are plenty of very nice places in the world and Canada is just one of the.

[crazyforkate]

Interesting point about feeling more connected to English/French heritage for most of our history. We still struggle with having a Canadian identity beyond NOT being other people. Hell, one of my relatives would (totally seriously) refer to pregnancy as "doing our bit for the Empire". I think Americans tend to be a lot more sure of who they are and what they represent, having been in existence longer - not all, by any means, but many more.

Our military culture is also not nearly as significant, so that's probably a big factor. The flag is used quite similarly in Canadian military funerals, but fewer people tend to encounter it.

I've really enjoyed hearing your different perspectives on this. Thanks for a respectful discussion. This is one of the few places where it feels safe to ask a question like this.

[twin2]

Back in college, I took a class from the history department called "The Americas". As part of the course we examined the differences, socially, politically, patriotically and artistically between the US and CA. It's been a long time so I don't remember much of it in detail, but many scholars attribute the differences, and I guess this flag issue is an example, all stems back to the differences in how each broke away from the "mother country" (England). The US basically fought its way out where as CA was amicably let go. I was never really quite sure how much to believe of it, on some levels it made sense, on others it didn't. Wish I could remember more about it, because it was interesting.

[Geechee Girl]

I also come from a military family, Army & Navy. We had a few funereal flags, too. I was taught early on that respect for the flag is a BIG DEAL on par with the KJV bible. My public elementary school taught flag etiquette as well. Every day we said the pledge, and special honor was given to students to help raise, lower, and fold the flag daily. We also learned how to respectfully abstain from saying the pledge (mostly for JW students) and the proper way to display the flag for emergencies or civil protest. Our fair city traces its roots to the original 13 colonies. Military bases, forts, multiple military cemeteries, and the Citadel are in the region.

In a state where the Confederate flag is flown everywhere, and part of our state flag at one time, the U.S. Flag means a lot to me. However, I can't stand the look-at-me-I'm-Merican, God Bless the USA, these colors don't run mentality of the flag as fashion. Flag pins, beach towels, bikinis, etc are not my cup of tea. Although I respect the freedom of sartorial expression, I feel it trivializes our national symbol.

[FundieFarmer]

I guess my feelings behind it are pretty strong. My grandfather, and his 4 brothers, fought in every war including/after WWII. One by one, every single one of his brothers died in battle-4 young men who loved this country enough to lay down their lives to protect it. They were stronger than I will ever be, to run with courage and fortitude knowing they could die, knowing their brothers had died. And even though my grandfather has since passed, he was very proud to be American, proud to serve our country, and loyal even through all he lost. For me, the flag is a sign of my family history, our losses, and our ultimate love for everyone who comes to reside stateside, and it's a way to honor those 5 men for the incredible sacrifices they made for me to have the US as my home.

[DGayle]

The flag symbolizes freedom, and even if our politicians are trying to strip us of it, it's still something all of us want, and so we stand by what the flag represents. We had to fight to be free of England. Canada is still, in a way, part of England.

[LaLele]

From an individual perspective, it makes some sense that a person who was made to salute an object and recite a pledge to it 5 day a week for 12 years, from a time they were 5 years old would be more than likely to develop an attachment to said object. Most cultural groups have rituals that help establish and affirm group membership and flag reverence/loyalty seems to be one of America's. I consider myself pretty liberal, yet still feel a strong connection to the flag itself, probably partially due to indoctrination.

[Four is Enough]

From an individual perspective, it makes some sense that a person who was made to salute an object and recite a pledge to it 5 day a week for 12 years, from a time they were 5 years old would be more than likely to develop an attachment to said object. Most cultural groups have rituals that help establish and affirm group membership and flag reverence/loyalty seems to be one of America's. I consider myself pretty liberal, yet still feel a strong connection to the flag itself, probably partially due to indoctrination.

"E Pluribus Unum".... the motto of the United States. "Out of many, one".... I think that speaks to what America has built here... many nationalities. Many people with many different cultures. There is a certain sense of pride in that. It's a different kind of model than any other country.. and was even more so at the time it was being created. There needed to be a strong symbol of that unity. So Lady Liberty, the Stars and Stripes, you got it.

Oddly enough, when you mentioned the Pledge of Allegiance, I remembered saying it, but it's the SSB that makes me get all weepy and sentimental, not the Pledge. (The pledge was like just another prayer at school in the morning... I went to Catholic school, LOL!) But the words of the pledge do indicate what Americans revere: "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Yeah. That makes me proud, even though the "justice" part doesn't work so well all the time..

[Maggie Mae]

My school had us stop with the pledge to the flag in 91 or 92. I don't even know it. It was REALLY surprising to me when I moved and occasionally we start meetings and stuff with this bullshit. Not all Americans "get it" either. Nor do we think we are the greatest of all the great places, but I certainly have met older people who "don't care for other countries"

Part of the reason some people in the US feel that way is because we are so geographically large that we don't have to leave the country to experience a different culture, different geography, etc. People in UK can travel for Holiday and see a few different countries by train. Well, we have the interstate highway so someone in Wisconsin who wants a change from cheese and snow and the worst football ever can spend a few hours and drive to Florida and hang out on the beach eating cubano sandwiches or they could get in a plane and be in Los Angeles or they could go to Chicago or New York or Yellowstone or Hawaii or New Orleans or skiing in Utah or they could go to Washington DC. It's not that we don't want to leave, it's just that it's less expensive to stay in the US and there are a lot of options for the average person who doesn't have a ton of money.

Also I'm not even a huge fan of the US, and I hate the stupid stereotypes that people online seem to have about us. We aren't all Larry the Cable Guy or Paris Hilton, nor are we all that guy with the flag pants in Napoleon Dynamite.

[Four is Enough]

I'm including a youtube excerpt of the speech from "The American President"... love this movie... he starts talking about the flag around 1:30... but the part about being an American is good, too... "you gotta want it"..

[polecat]

I will admit that I'm not logical about the flag. Yes, it's an object, but being raised a military brat ... well. I can't explain it. It's not so much the fabric but what it represents for many people. I'm also irrationally proud of my family's military history (although I'm for all intents and purposes a pacifist), in which my father was career military, and my grandfather and great-grandfathers and further back have all served since the late 1600s, when my first ancestors immigrated from The Netherlands.

That said, we do not display the flag in or on our home. But I have a strong reaction to those who display it disrespectfully (not talking about protests but of people who are loud about their patriotism while being utterly ignorant about the rules of flag display).

[Rachel333]

I don't know why exactly, but it's definitely something Americans care a lot about. I remember learning about how to properly handle a flag--never let it touch the ground, never wear it as clothing, never fold it in anything but a triangle, never fly a ragged flag, only get rid of it by burning it, etc. Those rules get broken pretty frequently, though.

My grandfather (a WWII vet) had a military funeral and the moment where my grandmother was presented with a flag was very emotional. I wasn't expecting it to affect me like that.

Anecdote: I watched a little bit of the Super Bowl halftime show the year of the Janet Jackson fiasco and I was shocked to see someone performing while wearing an American flag. (I took those rules really seriously as a child.) I turned it off and the next day when people asked if I saw what happened I said yes and joined them in their outrage. It took me a while to figure out we weren't talking about the same incident.

If I recall correctly, the flag wearing at the halftime show did cause a bit of controversy, but it was definitely overshadowed by Janet Jackson's nipple.

I think a lot of people started caring more about the flag after 9/11 too. I remember when virtually every car flew a flag in the window and people were definitely extra touchy about the flag for a while.