The Baltimore Mom

[2xx1xy1JD]

Toothfairy: there are more options that hitting or having disrespectful kids. See my post on the Disney thread for how our family deals with the respect issue.

August and others: Good parenting is about more than simply what a parent DOESN'T do (ie not spanking), and good outcomes with kids depends on more than just what the parents do.

Simply put, children are influenced by everything around them, 24/7. That's why there is so much more to raising and disciplining them than simply whether or not you use one particular technique at a point of crisis/conflict.

Teaching them respect means modeling respect. I'm always a bit amazed when someone's wondering about how to discipline their obnoxious little brat before they end up in jail. For starters - stop calling your child an obnoxious little brat, and picture them as something other than a future felon. They need to see and experience respect in action, and have respect for themselves.

Now, while I'll credit myself for focusing on respect with my family, we don't live in a vacuum. The kids see aunts and uncles and grandparents who get along and generally model respect. They go to a great school, where they are treated with respect. They see that the teachers treat their parents with respect (my husband treats several of them). There's a general tone among friends and our community, where certain values are reinforced from multiple sources.

So, my lessons at home stick because they are reinforced by my "village". It would be far, far harder if I had to fight to teach one thing at home, while the world outside was giving my child a completely different message, if my child constantly got the message from the media that he was a future thug, if teachers and schools had no expectation that my child would do well, if the people who seemed to get the most respect were the ones who did things that were illegal, etc.

[Mama Mia]

Right August, the comments on a thread about the Baltrimore Mom have nothing to do with the Baltimore Mom. And the issues addressed have nothing to do with poverty or living situation or racism or issues specific to teen male culture, or real, actual fears for some kids every time they walk out the door :roll:

Yes, threads here go off-topic all the time. But when people have specifically brought up the issues that DO actually, in the real world, lead to what you consider "shitty parenting" - you blithely brush it off as being irrelevant. And you think it's "patronizing" -to bring demgraphics like poverty into it ---which would be hilarious, if it wasn't such a typical entitled, privileged, theoretical response to a real world situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am guessing you don't have actual experience raising a teenage son? Particularly one with a more challenging personality, or in an environment where the idea that a cop might kill someone very much like your son isnt even a tiny bit surprising.

Or, lets do another simple knowledge test -- your 16 year old boy walks out the door - do you worry that he's wearing the wrong color shirt? If he's wearing the "right" color shirt do you worry that it means more than self-preservation? Do you worry that he'll have the wrong answer when another teen boy asks him "what are you"? Do you even know what that question means? Or the consequences of answering it wrong-or right-or not answering at all?

And, before you say all of that is irrelevant to the topic--no, no it's not. No matter how much your theories of proper parenting tell you differently.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Mama Mia - exactly.

I'll take the example one step further.

Let's say your 16 yr old son is a bit rebellious. You're a single mom, he's not that respectful, and he's spending a lot of time getting high and slacking off at school.

Mama Mia is giving an example where that could be fatal.

Here's a different scenario, where things can be going wrong and the "village" still helps to make sure a kid ends up ok.

Picture that 16 yr old having friends, esp. from summer camp, who aren't gang members. They may like to party and have a good time, but they all expect to become professionals and do well. The 16 yr old goes on to do a lot of drugs and flounder in school....until they realize that they are going nowhere in life, while their friends are doing something. They stop focusing on smoking pot and following the Grateful Dead everywhere, go back to school, do well, get a few degrees, and become a highly respected professional. That's exactly what happened with my cousins. [i see one cousin every year at a Grateful Dead-themed hospital fundraiser, organized by a former camp friend who is now a doctor.] In this setting, kids can "bounce". Despite the drugs, nobody ever got arrested. The mistakes weren't permanent. There was positive peer pressure which took over.

[DomWackTroll]

What this thread needs are the soothing, rational words of Tim Bayly:

“Those watching the death of Mr. Gray and the riots that have followed should have noted that one of Mr. Gray's arresting officers was a woman, the mayor is a woman, the Baltimore City State's Attorney is a woman, and it was a mother (not a father) who slapped her son around out on the street while the whole world watched... Baltimore's shame is being oppressed by children and being ruled by women. Thus says the Word of God.â€

baylyblog.com/blog/2015/05/baltimores-shame

[BrownieMomma]

What this thread needs are the soothing, rational words of Tim Bayly:

“Those watching the death of Mr. Gray and the riots that have followed should have noted that one of Mr. Gray's arresting officers was a woman, the mayor is a woman, the Baltimore City State's Attorney is a woman, and it was a mother (not a father) who slapped her son around out on the street while the whole world watched... Baltimore's shame is being oppressed by children and being ruled by women. Thus says the Word of God.â€

baylyblog.com/blog/2015/05/baltimores-shame

My head hurts.

[Mama Mia]

Rioting is not the answer. I know I agree with this. I do not follow the understanding of how looting and burning your own neighborhood is sticking it to the man.

I watched a clip of a young black mother looking for diapers. It's been a few days so I don't remember the specifics but the local store was looted or damaged or closed and she could not find a place from which to buy diapers.

Pretty sure I already said this, but even after a few days when I think of that mom smacking her son about the head I feel the same thing I felt when I first watched it - I feel her fear, her relief. I feel it because I have a 26yo son and 17yo son.

My 17yo I could probably either just tell him to leave or take him by the arm or the hand and pull him away. Probably. I have a healthy respect and understanding for the power of the mob, and what normally would work might not if he's caught up in a mob.

My oldest son? Hah. He is a different personality. It might take more to get him redirected but make no mistake about it, I would beat him about the head or tackle him or do whatever I would have to do to get him out of the situation, preferably alive, and preferably not hurt. And more the I thought he might be harmed just because of the color of his skin, the faster and harder I would do whatever it is I need to do. Even if it came to clocking him cold and dragging him.

If you think this makes me a bad parent then I wonder how you would not do anything to save your own child. If you think this is about discipline or punishment, then I feel glad for you that you have never had any situation where you feel your child might lose his/her life and the unbelievable choking fear that arises.

This mom is a mom, neither hero nor villain. I've seen in several threads decrying how fundies court and marry young and their brains aren't developed, this kid looked even younger than that, and kid probably thinks like most teens - immortal, not gonna happen to me, impulsive, and not the best decision makers.

I think she acted like a normal mother. I also think comments about spanking and discipline have nothing to do with what happened at the riot. I didn't like seeing her hit him but I sure as hell loved seeing him move away, alive.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I think you summed it up perfectly. And expressed the thoughts far better than I've been able to.

I especially like your description of the difference in your two sons. I really experienced the impact of personality in child raising. I was actually a very smug parent when my older kids were little :embarrassed: . certain that it was the child development courses, and reading and following all the correct guidelines that led to such - generally- they were by no means angels - especially my son --but generally --cooperative, respectful, academic achiever kids. Then I got knocked off my high horse by my strong-willed, hurricane, danger magnet, risk taking, non-academic, younger kids. Especially the son with severe adhd. And a whole lot of testosterone. And surrounded by other similar kids. And suddenly, hmmm, I wasn't so great a parent. And my perfect parenting techniques did fuck-all good. And the tips for strong willed, adhd kids only helped a tiny bit.

And I am 100% convinced that if I lived in a different area - hell, even in a rural part of the same area! AND had the luxury of being a stay at home parent AND had the $$ to to keep him in interesting, physical activities all day everyday-- life would have been much less terrifying, chaotic and dysfunctional. BUT -- I am also 100% convinced he would have still been a really challenging kid. And the type to get into trouble.

[Palimpsest]

What this thread needs are the soothing, rational words of Tim Bayly:

“Those watching the death of Mr. Gray and the riots that have followed should have noted that one of Mr. Gray's arresting officers was a woman, the mayor is a woman, the Baltimore City State's Attorney is a woman, and it was a mother (not a father) who slapped her son around out on the street while the whole world watched... Baltimore's shame is being oppressed by children and being ruled by women. Thus says the Word of God.â€

baylyblog.com/blog/2015/05/baltimores-shame

:headdesk: :headdesk: :headdesk:

[Toothfairy]

ITA with all of this. I think the reason the spanking debate gets brought in is not necessarily because it's relevant to this woman in particular, but because of how the media coverage was afterward - people were basically implying that this woman was a hero for being willing to smack her kid around. When she, like you said, was no hero (and no villain), she was just desperate and terrified for her son.

Spanking kids does not = respectful children. I was spanked and I was a hellion and after years of nannying I can say that I have worked with plenty of beautifully well behaved kids who were never spanked and plenty of absolutely unbearable kids who were. And I can still remember the sinking feeling of my parents sitting me down and telling me how disappointed they were in my behavior, or how my behavior had hurt them or scared them. THAT was effective. My memories of being spanked are chaotic and messy. But I have some pretty profound, specific memories of having "serious talks" with my parents that really did stick with me forever. And they made me much more willing to listen to my parents without conflict because it made me feel like they actually saw me as a human being and really were trying to teach me something, not just punish me.

I hate rude, snotty, disrespectful children too. I don't really like kids that much to begin with, honestly. But they are human beings and don't deserve to be hurt, just like you and me. And I can see how a woman like this one in Baltimore would be so panicked and at her wit's end that you simply don't know what else to do, and I'm not attempting to point at her specifically, because if there would ever be a time you'd be driven to smack your kid in the heat of the moment, it would be when you're worried a cop might shoot them or put them in jail without charges.

There are plenty of rude, snotty, disrespectful adults I would LOVE to smack, but I don't and I can't. It's not my right to lay a hand on anyone else and I would be thrown into jail if I did. A defenseless child less than half my size especially. Parents are a child's guardian, not their owner. They're not just your property to do with as you want.

As a parent it's my job to parent them. Yes hitting a child doesn't mean they're going to turn out respectful. But hitting is apart of discipline. I would rather correct their behavior right then and there. Yes kids are human but they have no right to disrespect the hand that feeds them or the people that gave them life. They also should never disrespect a teacher or other adult. I've seen too many kids run all over their parents. I'll be damn if my kid every beats me up or is disrespectful to me. Talking doesn't work with every child. Some kids need to fear the consequences of their actions. If your child refuses to go to school and then you get a cps case for educational neglect, what would you do? Talk it out? How about if your son said to you he's going to be gang affiliated, or beat up on their siblings or even on you? Talk it out? Talk about how they're feeling? I've seen cases like this. Therapy might help, but it works with clients who want to change. It's not a quick fix. Some kids need tough love. Some kids should fear.

Also it's not like I hit my kids for every little thing. It's actually very rarely that I need to hit them. I haven't hit my teens in years. Hitting is the last resort for me depending on what it is. I just spanked my 7 yo last week because she almost got third degree burns on her while I was boiling water. After I repeatedly told her to get away from the stove. Even after I spanked her I explain to her why I did. Most of the time I do talk with my kids,there's a "why" to everything right? But I'm not afraid to use physical discipline if needed.

[Toothfairy]

Toothfairy: there are more options that hitting or having disrespectful kids. See my post on the Disney thread for how our family deals with the respect issue.

August and others: Good parenting is about more than simply what a parent DOESN'T do (ie not spanking), and good outcomes with kids depends on more than just what the parents do.

Simply put, children are influenced by everything around them, 24/7. That's why there is so much more to raising and disciplining them than simply whether or not you use one particular technique at a point of crisis/conflict.

Teaching them respect means modeling respect. I'm always a bit amazed when someone's wondering about how to discipline their obnoxious little brat before they end up in jail. For starters - stop calling your child an obnoxious little brat, and picture them as something other than a future felon. They need to see and experience respect in action, and have respect for themselves.

Now, while I'll credit myself for focusing on respect with my family, we don't live in a vacuum. The kids see aunts and uncles and grandparents who get along and generally model respect. They go to a great school, where they are treated with respect. They see that the teachers treat their parents with respect (my husband treats several of them). There's a general tone among friends and our community, where certain values are reinforced from multiple sources.

So, my lessons at home stick because they are reinforced by my "village". It would be far, far harder if I had to fight to teach one thing at home, while the world outside was giving my child a completely different message, if my child constantly got the message from the media that he was a future thug, if teachers and schools had no expectation that my child would do well, if the people who seemed to get the most respect were the ones who did things that were illegal, etc.

I know there's other ways besides hitting. It's not like I resort to hitting everytime they do something wrong or bad. I very rarely hit my kids. But like I said I'm not afraid to use physical discipline if necessary. Most of the time I take things away they like or if they ask me for something I don't give it to them. I do try to talk with them and understand their world. Asking the why questions. I know what it's like to be a kid and a teen. I once was one a long time ago. I have an open relationship with every one of my kids. I'm not a mean overly strict parent who requires her children to become robots. I do believe in tough love when needed and kids seeing the consequences of their actions. This Maryland mom saw her black 16yo son in the street throwing rocks at the cops. He better be lucky the only reason the cops didn't do anything is because cameras were there.

I think most people don't know the difference between abuse and discipline. I know the difference. Every parent parents a different way. The way I parent my children might be different from the way you parent your children. There's no rules to parenting. I parent the way I see fit.

[Toothfairy]

Rioting is not the answer. I know I agree with this. I do not follow the understanding of how looting and burning your own neighborhood is sticking it to the man.

I watched a clip of a young black mother looking for diapers. It's been a few days so I don't remember the specifics but the local store was looted or damaged or closed and she could not find a place from which to buy diapers.

Pretty sure I already said this, but even after a few days when I think of that mom smacking her son about the head I feel the same thing I felt when I first watched it - I feel her fear, her relief. I feel it because I have a 26yo son and 17yo son.

My 17yo I could probably either just tell him to leave or take him by the arm or the hand and pull him away. Probably. I have a healthy respect and understanding for the power of the mob, and what normally would work might not if he's caught up in a mob.

My oldest son? Hah. He is a different personality. It might take more to get him redirected but make no mistake about it, I would beat him about the head or tackle him or do whatever I would have to do to get him out of the situation, preferably alive, and preferably not hurt. And more the I thought he might be harmed just because of the color of his skin, the faster and harder I would do whatever it is I need to do. Even if it came to clocking him cold and dragging him.

If you think this makes me a bad parent then I wonder how you would not do anything to save your own child. If you think this is about discipline or punishment, then I feel glad for you that you have never had any situation where you feel your child might lose his/her life and the unbelievable choking fear that arises.

This mom is a mom, neither hero nor villain. I've seen in several threads decrying how fundies court and marry young and their brains aren't developed, this kid looked even younger than that, and kid probably thinks like most teens - immortal, not gonna happen to me, impulsive, and not the best decision makers.

I think she acted like a normal mother. I also think comments about spanking and discipline have nothing to do with what happened at the riot. I didn't like seeing her hit him but I sure as hell loved seeing him move away, alive.

I read the people rioting and burning shit up isn't even from Baltimore. They just doing that to do it and steal shit.

[Sumeri]

I have three adult sons, two of them are "steps". In the days before I met their dad, one of them was regularly hit by his stepfather. Once this became known, the boys came to live with us, since he "couldn't handle" them.

Now, to a lot of people, this casual hitting didn't look like abuse. But do you know which of the three boys became the biggest challenge for many, many years? Yep, that one. If hitting him was such a great parenting tactic, how come he wasn't mild mannered and well behaved? It took him years, literally, before he trusted the adults in his life enough to realize we were on his side.

But so far as the mom in this video goes? I get it. Seriously. If one of my boys was going into a life threatening situation I would damn well use everything I had to get him to come home with me.

[Freefundies]

Having raised 2 sons...there are times when the boys get froggy and attempt to demonstrate their ability to get physical with someone to intimidate them. My sons did this with me (the principal parent). They both decided to challenge me physically after telling them no to something. I had no problem whipping both their butts in a big way. They chose to physically challenge me and found out that it doesn't work with me. Maybe this mom felt her son had done the same thing.

Teenaged boys are interesting creatures. Sometimes they have to learn the hard way. Both my sons learned in one lesson that they DO NOT pull that kind of shit EVER.

Good for you (no snarky pun intended either).

[2xx1xy1JD]

As a parent it's my job to parent them. Yes hitting a child doesn't mean they're going to turn out respectful. But hitting is apart of discipline. I would rather correct their behavior right then and there. Yes kids are human but they have no right to disrespect the hand that feeds them or the people that gave them life. They also should never disrespect a teacher or other adult. I've seen too many kids run all over their parents. I'll be damn if my kid every beats me up or is disrespectful to me. Talking doesn't work with every child. Some kids need to fear the consequences of their actions. If your child refuses to go to school and then you get a cps case for educational neglect, what would you do? Talk it out? How about if your son said to you he's going to be gang affiliated, or beat up on their siblings or even on you? Talk it out? Talk about how they're feeling? I've seen cases like this. Therapy might help, but it works with clients who want to change. It's not a quick fix. Some kids need tough love. Some kids should fear.

Also it's not like I hit my kids for every little thing. It's actually very rarely that I need to hit them. I haven't hit my teens in years. Hitting is the last resort for me depending on what it is. I just spanked my 7 yo last week because she almost got third degree burns on her while I was boiling water. After I repeatedly told her to get away from the stove. Even after I spanked her I explain to her why I did. Most of the time I do talk with my kids,there's a "why" to everything right? But I'm not afraid to use physical discipline if needed.