Is it Trans phobic to say only women get abortions?

[Firiel]

I am NOT being snarky but you have missed my point or I did not make it plain.

Pussy and dick are not terms I hear. I have never heard recently any politician use anything except gay when talking. Political suicide otherwise.

It's not utopia by far...far . FAR FAR!! We have similar issues but not the same. Patriarchy is alive and well but may not look like yours nor does racism look the same. It's just a different experience to yours. We are an equal op offender...everybody is a cunt :lol:

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying language doesn't reflect power structures and isn't used as a tool of oppression?

[OkToBeTakei]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying language doesn't reflect power structures and isn't used as a tool of oppression?

EH? NO!

I am saying I don't live in the same fucking country as you. The examples you gave have little meaning to me. I was pointing out your experience and mine are different.

[OkToBeTakei]

Rachel B, you are certainly free to engage only in conversations with people who completely agree with your every thought. But to say I have a clear animus towards trans people is frankly ridiculous.

I disagree with changing universal language in order to not trigger a small handful of people when we are talking about the general term used for the group. And I can't imagine why you can't see the irony in this entire conversation -- that this handful of people ( or those arguing on their behalf - I dont know what the opinions are of the actual trans- men in this situation) - gets to decide for the 99.9% of the population who is pregnant that being called " women" is now somehow an offensive term.

That is not remotely the same thing as refusing to use whatever pronouns an individual person wants when interacting with that person - either virtually, in social situations or professionally.

And that is quite the misrepresentation of anything I have said regarding children who identify as trans. If I recall in one thread I absolutely thought THAT particular child's mother was using her child to get into the public eye, based on statements like " looking back, at six months old Johnny chose the pink blanket " as part of her reason for knowing her child was actually a girl. Obviously there was a lot more, but there was, to me and many others, a clear element of the mother wanting attention. Including taking the little girl on a round of television shows where she looked absolutely miserable.

And yes, I do question why, IN SOME CASES, parents seem more eager to say " I think my child is trans or gender non- conforming or non - binary " than to just say that it's perfectly fine for some little boys to prefer sparkly things and dolls and some little girls to prefer dump trucks and football. It's the beyond Fundie level rigidness that they gender type childrens preferences and activities that I object to. The Duggar's allow their small children more freedom to play and explore without attaching a "boy" or "girl" label more than many of these parents seem to.

Clearly that doesn't apply to ALL families. Some children do have gender dysphoria that causes them real anguish. That's not the same thing as what shows up in SOME of the situations we discuss.

And I just saw your above thread quotes. If you think that is somehow animus against trans people, well good luck in the world. All I am hearing you say is " someone disagrees with my world view, it upsets me, I can't talk about it"

I completely stand by the idea that child development most certainly does need to be taken into account in these discussions, that SOME parents who promote their kids in the media are doing it more for themselves than the kid and that it is ridiculous to base a child's gender identity on what clothes/toys/colors they like.

I thought it was that thread. Hey ho it seems there are quite a few trans animus peeps about then. I'm sure we should inform them of what they are being accused.

[Firiel]

EH? NO!

I am saying I don't live in the same fucking country as you. The examples you gave have little meaning to me. I was pointing out your experience and mine are different.

Gotcha. Of course different countries will have different instances of language reflecting power structures. And obviously, I won't be able to use specific examples from your country. The point still stands. Words matter. Word choice matters. And I think we should look to the folks who have been otherized by society (and language) because of a particular issue first and foremost when constructing our vocabularies surrounding that issue. And in this case, it means listening to the voice of trans* people and not thoughtlessly throwing out insults at anyone who dares suggest we use different words that we do.

Now, that doesn't mean that they will always be right (no one is always right, after all), but the listening is what is important. Note that this means in the case of the actual original topic of the thread, we should listen to both trans* people and women, considering this issue covers several areas in which both parties have been marginalized.

[OkToBeTakei]

Gotcha. Of course different countries will have different instances of language reflecting power structures. And obviously, I won't be able to use specific examples from your country. The point still stands. Words matter. Word choice matters. And I think we should look to the folks who have been otherized by society (and language) because of a particular issue first and foremost when constructing our vocabularies surrounding that issue. And in this case, it means listening to the voice of trans* people and not thoughtlessly throwing out insults at anyone who dares suggest we use different words that we do.

Now, that doesn't mean that they will always be right (no one is always right, after all), but the listening is what is important. Note that this means in the case of the actual original topic of the thread, we should listen to both trans* people and women, considering this issue covers several areas in which both parties have been marginalized.

I'd like to say I'd be easier to understand in real life but I think I'd be lying :lol:

I get your point, I think what I was trying to say is that both abortion and the needs of transgender issues as referenced on this thread are addressed to some extent where I live through social care. Does the language change that? No. What is important is IF I wanted to transition and then have an abortion. I could. I don't mean to sound so simplistic but essentially I could.

[nelliebelle1197]

Thank you for clarifying that engaging with you would also be fruitless, Eri. That saves me some time.

Rachel, I should have warned you about this one. Sorry. I could have saved you 5 minutes of your life.

[nelliebelle1197]

I'd like to say I'd be easier to understand in real life but I think I'd be lying :lol:

I get your point, I think what I was trying to say is that both abortion and the needs of transgender issues as referenced on this thread are addressed to some extent where I live through social care. Does the language change that? No. What is important is IF I wanted to transition and then have an abortion. I could. I don't mean to sound so simplistic but essentially I could.

By the way, OKTBTK, I just came across your first post! You were so young then!

[nelliebelle1197]

Yeah, it is totally not important to continue to frame the conversation about reproductive rights in the context of women 'cause all we are all totally secure in the US.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... n-abortion

[Terrie]

I was thinking about the fact that abortion is, politically, a woman's issue, in part because of anti-choice crowd consider transmen to be women. So, yes, I would say transphobia is a part of why abortion is a woman's issue. Not because of anyone on the pro-choice side, but because there are people on the other side who thinks that getting pregnant means your a woman, no matter how you identify.

[nelliebelle1197]

That is quite insightful and probably explains why I am flummoxed that anyone thinks it is okay to neuter this issue

[2xx1xy1JD]

Nelliebelle, your examples of domestic violence and rape gave me pause.

Those are 2 examples where the tendency to frame them as exclusively women's issues has caused real harm. There is less societal support and far less resources available for victims who do not fit the male perp/female victim mold and even professionals like police, social workers and judges can be blinded by bias in a way that is downright dangerous and that puts lives in danger.

So far, I'm still assuming that legal and practical barriers to abortion are likely to be the result of patriarchy and sexism so it is still a women's issue but if there was evidence of serious harm caused by lack of recognition on this particular issue, I might reconsider. As an example of serious harm, I've had more than one case where a man was stabbed by his female partner with documented serious injuries in the presence of their children, and the judges STLL tend to see the man as the abuser and woman as the victim despite no evidence that he ever did anything.

[OkToBeTakei]

By the way, OKTBTK, I just came across your first post! You were so young then!

Aye :lol: