Sad day for Catholic females

[fundiefun]

http://www.care2.com/causes/phoenix-cat ... rvers.html

Apparently putting a ban on female altar services will solve the low numbers of men going into the priesthood. As a female and Catholic convert who is moving to AZ in February I am saddened at what kind of message this is going to send girls and women "your work is good to God, but it's just not as important as men's work". I know some favor traditional Catholic practices of Vatican I, but this just makes me boil.

[Beeks]

Isn't that why girls weren't allowed to serve originally? I think female alter servers are a fairly new development (last 20-30 years?).

Here's a thought - let women become priests and you'll have a lot more priests! Problem solved.

[buddingmedievalist]

Here's a link to the diocese newspaper, wherein the pastor explains his decision: http://www.catholicsun.org/2011/august/ ... rvers.html

[demgirl]

I honestly believe that stuff like this is part of why the Catholic church simply cannot keep its attendance numbers up in the U.S. If you want a church that treats girls as less than boys, you probably would gravitate more toward fundie protestants. If you are appalled at having to tell your daughter she can't do something at church because she's the wrong gender, then how could you bring yourself to keep attending the Catholic church, when there are so many other options for Christian faith that don't tell females they are somehow "less than".

[Beeks]

Here's a link to the diocese newspaper, wherein the pastor explains his decision: http://www.catholicsun.org/2011/august/ ... rvers.html

This quote is idiotic:

"Prior to my ordination, as a single, Catholic man, I had no right whatsoever to the priesthood. And so when I went into the seminary, I was determining whether or not Jesus Christ was calling me to be a priest, but the Church was likewise discerning me and the ultimate decision was the Church's," Fr. Lankeit said. "Even if I felt very, very strongly at the bottom of my heart that I was called to be a priest and the Church didn't recognize that, I had to accept that."

Uhhhh, ok, dumbass but at least you had a CHANCE. Women don't.

[Nothing2CHere]

I wonder if he's no longer going to allow women to be Eucharistic Ministers in that diocese, too.

ETA: OK, I read a little more, and I think that it's one priest in the one church that is not going to allow this any longer, not a mandate for the entire diocese. At least, I hope that's the extent of it. Oh goody, the current female altar servers get to become sacristans - I had to look that up, I've never heard of it before. They get to take care of the vestments?

My other question - if this church is a cathedral, why is this decision being made by someone listed as just a priest, NOT the bishop? It - just - power trip, that's what I'm getting from this, a power trip, trying to set the church back. *sigh*

[clibbyjo]

One of the many,many reasons my husband and I are no longer Catholic and would never raise our children as such. :cry:

[alphaeta08]

If my parents' church didn't allow female alter "boys," they'd have, like, two. Nice move. :roll:

[romadiva]

I grew up an an alter server and loved it, I took great pride in it. I remember other girls too, like my friend Amanda.

[emmyfair]

One of the many,many reasons my husband and I are no longer Catholic and would never raise our children as such. :cry:

ditto.

[buddingmedievalist]

I wonder if he's no longer going to allow women to be Eucharistic Ministers in that diocese, too.

ETA: OK, I read a little more, and I think that it's one priest in the one church that is not going to allow this any longer, not a mandate for the entire diocese. At least, I hope that's the extent of it. Oh goody, the current female altar servers get to become sacristans - I had to look that up, I've never heard of it before. They get to take care of the vestments?

My other question - if this church is a cathedral, why is this decision being made by someone listed as just a priest, NOT the bishop? It - just - power trip, that's what I'm getting from this, a power trip, trying to set the church back. *sigh*

Yes, you're reading it right: just the cathedral of this diocese is no longer allowing female altar servers. The rest of the diocese is not required to follow suit.

And the priest who's made this decision is the rector of the cathedral; the bishop is technically the pastor but the rector is the one that handles all the day-to-day business of the parish.

[mirele]

Of course you all know why this is, don't you?

It's because us women, born without that pesky Y chromosome, can't image the human Jesus.

And God knows that the persons on the altar all have to have Y chromosomes so they can image the human Jesus.

If this kind of thinking didn't have real world consequences (e.g., women as the Other because we don't image God), then I wouldn't care. But it does have very real consequences, which is why I think the whole think is a pile of bovine fecal matter...stinking up the room for centuries now.

[Boogalou]

Every day is a sad day for Catholic females.

If the Catholic Church was really interested in increasing the number of people entering the priesthood they would let priests marry and let women become priests. Problem solved.

[homeschoolmomma1]

Back in the early church there was a term called deaconesses http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm

In the early church girls were not half bad.

Just wait till the new Roman Missal comes out full force. There will be a schism. I just know it. They all want to go backward again and some will not like it and leave- others will make a new Catholic Church

[desertvixen]

Every day is a sad day for Catholic females.

Pretty much. Which is why I feel less and less inclination to go back...

[Daenerys]

As someone who went to a Catholic school until like 5 years ago... I didn't think this was allowed? We were told they made an exception for our school as there were no boys to do it.

[Nothing2CHere]

Every day is a sad day for Catholic females.

If the Catholic Church was really interested in increasing the number of people entering the priesthood they would let priests marry and let women become priests. Problem solved.

Certain Catholic rites do let married men become priests, like mine, Byzantine, but we're smaller in numbers than the Roman rite, so it's not often heard of. A married man can become an ordained priest, but the way I understand it, if someone in the seminary reaches a certain point in his studies and still isn't married, then they forfeit getting married forever (unless they leave the priesthood).

Most Byzantine Catholics are of Eastern European descent. When they started immigrating to the US with their married priests and the priests' wives and families, the established Roman Catholic priests and bishops more or less freaked out, and for decades, married men could no longer become ordained priests in the Byzantine rite in the US (you still could in other parts of the world). I think it was in the late 90's when that ban was finally lifted. At my church, we currently have a deacon-on-his-way-to-being-a-priest who is married with three children. Given that other Catholic rites that are in communion with the Bishop of Rome allow married men to become priests, it still boggles that they won't allow it in the Roman rite.

However, even in the Byzantine rite, women can't become priests. They've also never let girls be altar servers in our rite, either.

[EllieCee]

This is terrible. How exactly will this increase the numbers of men going into priesthood?

Isn't that why girls weren't allowed to serve originally? I think female alter servers are a fairly new development (last 20-30 years?).

I think so. My mom (grew up in the 50's) told me that girls weren't allowed to serve in church. I never saw a girl altar server until I was 8, but I never really paid attention to mass until I was 8.

Every day is a sad day for Catholic females.

Very, very true.

The church I attended (when I use to attend Catholic middle school) won't let girls serve funerals or weddings because the pastor thought women were too emotional. Boys always got the newer robes and always carried the crucifix down the aisle during the procession.

I no longer consider myself a Catholic, while I do have many reasons, this is one of the top ones.

[FakePigtails]

Sadly, this seems like nothing after reading of two cases on the Catholic Answers Forum (family life) in the last few days where women who were told by doctors that it was very dangerous to get pregnant again were told too bad, NFP or abstinence for you :-(

Life is great but I can't get on board with a church that values being open to life more than being alive, or on topic, keeping their clergy male over *having* clergy.

[Boogalou]

Certain Catholic rites do let married men become priests, like mine, Byzantine, but we're smaller in numbers than the Roman rite, so it's not often heard of. A married man can become an ordained priest, but the way I understand it, if someone in the seminary reaches a certain point in his studies and still isn't married, then they forfeit getting married forever (unless they leave the priesthood).

Most Byzantine Catholics are of Eastern European descent. When they started immigrating to the US with their married priests and the priests' wives and families, the established Roman Catholic priests and bishops more or less freaked out, and for decades, married men could no longer become ordained priests in the Byzantine rite in the US (you still could in other parts of the world). I think it was in the late 90's when that ban was finally lifted. At my church, we currently have a deacon-on-his-way-to-being-a-priest who is married with three children. Given that other Catholic rites that are in communion with the Bishop of Rome allow married men to become priests, it still boggles that they won't allow it in the Roman rite.

However, even in the Byzantine rite, women can't become priests. They've also never let girls be altar servers in our rite, either.

Huh. I never even knew there were Byzantine Catholics before. Do they have as much trouble as the Catholic Church in finding priests?

[Boltingmadonna]

My former catechism teacher, who went on to become a feminist Catholic theology professor, once famously commented, "If you can't pee like Jesus, you can't be like Jesus." :lol:

[dawbs]

I honestly believe that stuff like this is part of why the Catholic church simply cannot keep its attendance numbers up in the U.S. If you want a church that treats girls as less than boys, you probably would gravitate more toward fundie protestants. If you are appalled at having to tell your daughter she can't do something at church because she's the wrong gender, then how could you bring yourself to keep attending the Catholic church, when there are so many other options for Christian faith that don't tell females they are somehow "less than".

I PROMISE this is not intended to be as snarky as it sounds. Really.

But...where are you finding options for Christian faith that don't tell females they are 'less than'?

Maybe it's where I live and my own narrowness in looking for it, but I'd give my eye-teeth to find such a church for my family.

[Guest Anonymous]

I PROMISE this is not intended to be as snarky as it sounds. Really.

But...where are you finding options for Christian faith that don't tell females they are 'less than'?

Maybe it's where I live and my own narrowness in looking for it, but I'd give my eye-teeth to find such a church for my family.

Well, the mainline, liberal Protestants have female pastors, as do liberal Baptists, Methodists and I believe Episcopalians? All these are of course the more liberal branches of said Churches.

If you really want a "church" that's incredibly open minded, all about equality and such, maybe give the Unitarian Universalists a try? My husband and I were married in a Unitarian church because my father insisted we get married in a church and both of us were kinda agnostic at the time. (We eventually became Jewish). Yes, you'll get a hodgepodge of some people who are Christian, some people who are agnostic and some people who aren't either, but maybe it'll give you the sense of community you're looking for? I don't know.

As for the original post, this was one of 2 reasons I left Christianity/the Catholic church. (#1 was a complete disblief in Jesus being anything but a very nice man with some very nice things to say, in other words a very wise man, but not the physical manifestation of G-d).

For me the tipping point was when a FEMALE relative who is Catholic basically said "women can't be priests, its not what G-d intended and its you can't ask a woman to do a man's job". I was appalled.

[dawbs]

I was afraid UU was going to be the best choice :oops:

Nothing against it, it's just...well, a step farther than I am willing to go right now.

(and basically the other options defeat at least part of the purpose of attending-- 'sense of community' because I have to leave my community in order to attend one--and by the time I make that commute, we find it impossible to, in normal life, make the drive to ever be a part of that community.)

[Nothing2CHere]

Huh. I never even knew there were Byzantine Catholics before. Do they have as much trouble as the Catholic Church in finding priests?

To a degree, yes, but one factor is that there are less Byzantine Catholics out there than Roman Catholics, so we automatically have a smaller pool of people to pull from. I also think, from my experience growing up in the Byzantine and Roman Catholic churches, that the difficulty in finding priests is also a cultural thing. When my parents were growing up, life was centered around the church - you attended mass every Sunday, and never skipped out on holy days, either, your sons served as altar servers whether they liked it or not, your kids went to the Catholic grade school attached to the church (because every church had its own grade school) and then on to the local Catholic high school, fathers were involved in the Holy Name Society, mothers in the St. Anne's Guild, if you were in Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, your troop was based out of the church. Having your son become a priest or your daughter become a nun was right up there with a child becoming a doctor or lawyer. My father was actually in the Byzantine seminary to become a priest, because that's what his mother really wanted him to become - she wanted a priest in the family. (He told me he dropped out of the seminary because he didn't think it was the right thing for him after all, but reading between the lines, I think it's because his mother had passed away and he no longer felt the obligation to fulfill her wishes.)

Nowadays, (Catholic) church is something people seem to do "on the side," squeezed into the weekend if there's time. As a kid, my family attended mass almost every weekend, I attended religion classes, but there was no real youth group at my church for me to belong to (not enough youth in our Byzantine parish), my parents opted to send me to public school - the church was there, and it was important to me, but it was only one facet of my life. And nowadays, with so many other career options out there, becoming a priest or a nun just doesn't seem glamorous - you REALLY have to have a calling to do it, and church bureaucracy is doing nothing to make it an appealing option again for those who may be "on the edge."

A good way to describe what I think is going on is to talk about my old priest. When I was in 6th grade, I think, the priest at my parish was changed, and the new priest was a very old-school priest. My father described it as, he belonged in the old country in the little village where the priest was The Most Important Person and everyone would part ways when he walked down the street, giving him respect simply because he was The Priest - and that's not how it worked here in the "new world," we wanted priests who were friendly and approachable, and were OK with us just calling them Father Bob instead of using their full titles of Monsingour ArchPriest LastName, who got respect from their clergy because they earned it and deserved it, not just because they were The Priest. The Catholic Church bureaucracy is still stuck in the old country; the world has changed, and they refuse to change and adapt with it. They are desperately kicking and screaming as they cling to their old ways thinking they can force the rest of us to turn back time with them, instead of them realizing that hey, if they want to survive and keep the respect they think they should have, they're the ones who have to change.