Restricting children

[Meeka]

I've been thinking abut why many fundamental family restrict their children so much.

Many of these people grew up in regular homes but as they have children they want t restrict their children and control every interaction.

I've often wondered if these parents have had something bad happen to them in their past and want to prevent their children from experience that pain. I grew up in a typical home and remember wonderful times spending days and nights with my friends out of sight of parents, going to concerts, flirting with boys and kissing without anything bad happening and only have positive and sweet memories of these times. I would want my children to have these same experiences. However, maybe if I had been abused or hurt when I was not "protected" or under my parent's control I would want to prevent these pains from happening to my children.

Thoughts?

[browngrl]

In my opinion, I think that fear is behind much of what fundies do. Everything seems to terrify them. Death. Having their heart broken. Losing their children. A lot of the controlling behaviours they exhibit seem to me to be a desperate attempt to hold everything together. I think that a lot of fundies feel like if they could just control things enough then they could keep safe and keep the bad stuff away.

[CynicMom]

Plus there's a general fear that "things today are so much worse than things used to be". So YOU may have had super fun out of your parents sight, but your parents didn't have gangs/drugs/minorities/rampant sexuality to deal with.

[lillybeth]

Keeping the bad things away is good, but bad things are eventually going to happen, and once you "leave and cleave," how are you ever to know how to deal with it? At what point do the parents realize they're doing more harm, than good? (I think the Bates "dating with a purpose" is a really interesting example of this).

It's going to be interesting to watch this second generation go out and see how they handle the real world.

[cindyluvs24]

My son's college class is taking a field trip in 2 weeks to walk across the George Washington Bridge and the Brooklyn Bridge. While I am nervous about him walking across with possibly untied laces etc. (yes, the mom anxiety) Actually, guests were invited to come along as long as they had some connection to the university. I would have come except my husband just had a hip replaced last week and I can't leave him alone all day.

Someone should tell these fundies that their children are not their prisoners. It's ridiculous that parents of disabled children do everything they can to make their children independent of them, whereas, the fundies take perfectly normal children and hamstring them by spouting a lot of paranoia about the world.

[Mama Mia]

I've been thinking abut why many fundamental family restrict their children so much.

Many of these people grew up in regular homes but as they have children they want t restrict their children and control every interaction.

I've often wondered if these parents have had something bad happen to them in their past and want to prevent their children from experience that pain. I grew up in a typical home and remember wonderful times spending days and nights with my friends out of sight of parents, going to concerts, flirting with boys and kissing without anything bad happening and only have positive and sweet memories of these times. I would want my children to have these same experiences. However, maybe if I had been abused or hurt when I was not "protected" or under my parent's control I would want to prevent these pains from happening to my children.

Thoughts?

It doesn't apply to the everyday fundamentalists, but I wonder if the Duggars look at other " celebrity" teens / young adults who go completely off-the-rails and figure that their extreme protection is what keeps their kids from turning into Lindsey Lohan or Amanda Bynes.

[Marian the Librarian]

Here's what makes me the most nuts about the extreme fundie parents observed here on FJ: they treat their 20- and 30-something offspring as "children," and there's really no such thing as "leaving and cleaving," ever. Witness the Maxwell and Botkin compounds, which have absorbed the few spouses deemed acceptable; and the ever-single Reins sisters, Sarah Mally, the Arndt clan...these parents infantilize their children. It has nothing to do with protection, and everything to do with lifelong control.

[RosyDaisy]

It's all about power and control with religion thrown in for justification.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

They think that Satan is literally involved with everything and the only way to avoid him is to hide and stay away from all sinful temptation. In order to keep their kids from becoming worldly this kind of insane protection is required. It truly is all about fear for the majority of them. I do think though, that there are people in leadership who realize the ridiculousness of it all and they use the fear to keep the masses under their control and to keep the money flowing in since the majority of leadership is completely dependent on the offerings of all the regular joes.

[danvillebelle]

I fully cop to the fact that while my kids were little, I kept them extremely sheltered and did everything within my power to protect their innocence. As they have matured, we gradually loosened the reins. Now they are teens who are solid in their own personal faith and we trust them to make good decisions. We still have final say on what comes into the house, but I really can't remember the last time we had to enforce that and say no.

At the other end of the spectrum, my parents had no limits and did nothing to protect mine or my brother's innocence. None. We were watching R-rated movies as preschoolers. I was watching bloody horror movies at age 9, 10, 11. My father had an extensive collection of porn literature in the house, we found it (YOUNG), he knew it and did nothing. I really cannot explain how seriously it fucked me up. I learned well to hide and lie, and associated my sexuality with guilt and shame. I was running wild as a teen, dated an adult when I was 15 (we lied and said he was 18, he was 20) and again, they just looked the other way. That boyfriend eventually raped me. I was also molested twice by other men outside the family. As long as everything looked good on the outside (I was making straight A's in school, playing in the orchestra, etc.), all was well in my mother's la-la land.

So yeah, sometimes when bad things happen to you as a child you overdo it with protectiveness with your own kids.

The infantilized adult children who never leave home....that, I can't wrap my mind around.

[Jana814]

It's all about power and control with religion thrown in for justification.

U just described Steve Maxwell to a tee!

[Childless]

To live in a world so ruled by fear that you can't even venture outside your house by yourself is incredibly sad. I'm so glad my parents trusted their parenting and treated me as an adult when I hit the age of majority. I've had a wonderful life so far. I've traveled the world, gotten a college education, started a successful career, fell in love with a great guy, got married, and had the most adorable little boy on the planet. None of which could have happened if I spent my life cowering under a table afraid to leave my parents' sides. These poor people have no idea what their missing.

[Hisey]

To live in a world so ruled by fear that you can't even venture outside your house by yourself is incredibly sad. I'm so glad my parents trusted their parenting and treated me as an adult when I hit the age of majority. I've had a wonderful life so far. I've traveled the world, gotten a college education, started a successful career, fell in love with a great guy, got married, and had the most adorable little boy on the planet. None of which could have happened if I spent my life cowering under a table afraid to leave my parents' sides. These poor people have no idea what their missing.

I think, on some level, that fundie parents are glad their kids are scared. It is hard to let kids grow up and take risks. I have a 14 year old who has fought and longed for freedom since she was very young. In the last few years, we have gradually given her the freedom she wants (to walk to school and Starbucks, to have a debit card, etc). I've been scared to do this, but what forces me is the obvious pleasure she takes in her growing independence, the pride and confidence she gets. I think fundie parents are too narcissistic to see this, and give in to their fears by keeping the kids home. (It's sad, too, to have a kid grow up and not need mom anymore)

Now my 10 year old would be happy to stay little forever. So she's needed a few nudges. I know a few infantilized adults and I don't want her to become that way. Plus, I want her to experience the confidence and freedom her big sister does. So I've pushed her, gently, to do more on her own. Again, it's sad and scary for me, but I see it is good for her. Just today, she needed to walk across two parking lots and climb some stairs to meet her dad in a restaurant. She said I didn't need to go with her, that I could go home. "I'm 'sponsible enough," she said, and so I left (after secretly checking she made it).

[Mama Mia]

I fully cop to the fact that while my kids were little, I kept them extremely sheltered and did everything within my power to protect their innocence. As they have matured, we gradually loosened the reins. Now they are teens who are solid in their own personal faith and we trust them to make good decisions. We still have final say on what comes into the house, but I really can't remember the last time we had to enforce that and say no.

At the other end of the spectrum, my parents had no limits and did nothing to protect mine or my brother's innocence. None. We were watching R-rated movies as preschoolers. I was watching bloody horror movies at age 9, 10, 11. My father had an extensive collection of porn literature in the house, we found it (YOUNG), he knew it and did nothing. I really cannot explain how seriously it fucked me up. I learned well to hide and lie, and associated my sexuality with guilt and shame. I was running wild as a teen, dated an adult when I was 15 (we lied and said he was 18, he was 20) and again, they just looked the other way. That boyfriend eventually raped me. I was also molested twice by other men outside the family. As long as everything looked good on the outside (I was making straight A's in school, playing in the orchestra, etc.), all was well in my mother's la-la land.

So yeah, sometimes when bad things happen to you as a child you overdo it with protectiveness with your own kids.

The infantilized adult children who never leave home....that, I can't wrap my mind around.

Off topic to the original post, but I'm really curious. I'm wondering why your sexuality was wrapped in guilt and shame if everything was so accessible? Obviously I'm not saying little kids should be exposed to porn.....but it would seem the guilt and shameand lieing and hiding would correspond more to a family where the parents thought anything related to sex was dirty and never spoken about. Hope that doesn't come across offensive, and I understand why so much over-exposure would cause its own set of problems, but not understanding that particular reaction.

[debrand]

I've been thinking abut why many fundamental family restrict their children so much.

Many of these people grew up in regular homes but as they have children they want t restrict their children and control every interaction.

I've often wondered if these parents have had something bad happen to them in their past and want to prevent their children from experience that pain. I grew up in a typical home and remember wonderful times spending days and nights with my friends out of sight of parents, going to concerts, flirting with boys and kissing without anything bad happening and only have positive and sweet memories of these times. I would want my children to have these same experiences. However, maybe if I had been abused or hurt when I was not "protected" or under my parent's control I would want to prevent these pains from happening to my children.

Thoughts?

I have noticed that a lot of new converts to fundamentalism have had abusive or neglectful parenting. Often the relationship with the mother is strained.

One of the reasons that I flirted with fundamentalism was that I didn't trust myself not to become my mother. Fundamentalism allowed me clear cut, easy rules to follow. Ironically, one of the many reasons that I left fundamentalism was because I didn't want my daughters to be restricted by the limited boundaries that fundamentalism demanded.

I have a theory that past childhood abuse leads adults to be more comfortable with black/white thinking. Because childhood survival means following the parents' arbitrary rules, the child ends up believing that the world(and god) should function through laws that can't be questioned.

My husband's childhood was very permissive but punctuated by his parents' sudden outburst of anger. They would ignore him until he did something to bring himself to their attention and then they would beat him with whatever object was at hand. He still resents his parents but strangely enough, he always understood that black and white thinking was wrong.

[RachelB]

I've been thinking abut why many fundamental family restrict their children so much.

Many of these people grew up in regular homes but as they have children they want t restrict their children and control every interaction.

I've often wondered if these parents have had something bad happen to them in their past and want to prevent their children from experience that pain. I grew up in a typical home and remember wonderful times spending days and nights with my friends out of sight of parents, going to concerts, flirting with boys and kissing without anything bad happening and only have positive and sweet memories of these times. I would want my children to have these same experiences. However, maybe if I had been abused or hurt when I was not "protected" or under my parent's control I would want to prevent these pains from happening to my children.

Thoughts?

I think they have a huge amount of difficulty with the idea that their children are human beings distinct from their parents, who will eventually be out on their own and making their own decisions. And instead of giving their children the tools to become happy, functioning adults (whose version of "happy" and "functioning" might be -- gasp! -- different from Mom and Dad's), they do what they can to undercut their children's sense of competence, independence, good judgment, critical thinking skills. Thus, even if their children do slip out of grasp somehow, they've set those children up to fail.

"See? The big bad world really is out to get you. Don't you wish you had listened to me?"

You don't have to be a fundamentalist to have grown up in a family with this kind of dynamic, but fundamentalism gives it a whole extra layer of religious justification and social coercion.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I wonder if some of it comes from the fact that seemingly small things can be seen as triggering someone from a super-sheltered background to go "off".

To me, too much sheltering produces hot-house flowers that cannot weather normal elements.

[lizziesmom]

They think that Satan is literally involved with everything and the only way to avoid him is to hide and stay away from all sinful temptation. In order to keep their kids from becoming worldly this kind of insane protection is required. It truly is all about fear for the majority of them. I do think though, that there are people in leadership who realize the ridiculousness of it all and they use the fear to keep the masses under their control and to keep the money flowing in since the majority of leadership is completely dependent on the offerings of all the regular joes.

If you look closely at the ultra conservatives in this country they are afraid of everything. This is how Faux News keeps everyone riled up and following their agenda. Throw in the extremism or 'over the top' genes that put folks in the fundamental camp (Christian, Islam, Neo Nazi) and you have groups that are ripe for the pickings. Allowing and encouraging religious groups to get involved in politics has been a double edged sword. Unfortunately they are not going away.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I am older than many of the FJ's here and my children areyoung adults. Raising children is very very difficult. I think that I questioned myself with every decision, even when I felt strongly about it. There are always dangling fears and doubts. Your children are more precious to you than anything in the world (and by the way, that does not stop when they have grown up).

My philospohy has always been that my job is to both protect my children from the world as I prepare them to go out into it. That means that children need many small trila runs into the world, with incremental extensions of latitude (and occassional shortenings if needed). There is always the risk of crisis management when kids make really poor choices. I think that is the big fear a lot of these families get stuck on. I get that fear. It keeps parent up at night.

Some black and white thinkers seem to be attracted to this family model with "all the answers". They cloak it in god. That wat, the only way anything could go wrong is if they did not trust in god or they did not follow the strict (arbitrary) plan for family life.

Now that we are seeing some of these families dealing with adult children...who are still children...even the ones who do marry and reproduce...it will be really intersting to watch. Their model appears to be unsustainable.

And that is why FJ has become such a fascinating community.

[Closed Womb]

I don't think it's fear that motivates, but guilt. Yes, many generation zero fundies did things like date, kiss boys/girls, go to school dances, go to college, wear shorts, etc. Upon conversion, I truly believe they felt really guilty about these things. It sounds ridiculous to us, but I think Michelle Duggar really does feel guilt and shame over doing yard work in her shorts (or was it a bikini?) I've been quite involved in fundie-lite churches (and visit one full out fundie church for an extended period); there is definitely a narrative of "we accept you as you are; God will convict you to change." Conviction usually manifests in guilt.

So, with the first generation born into fundiedom the gen zero parents overdo it, trying to make sure that their kids don't have those experiences that lead to their shame and guilt (not caring that it also shaped who they were, who they married, and so on.)

[danvillebelle]

Off topic to the original post, but I'm really curious. I'm wondering why your sexuality was wrapped in guilt and shame if everything was so accessible? Obviously I'm not saying little kids should be exposed to porn.....but it would seem the guilt and shameand lieing and hiding would correspond more to a family where the parents thought anything related to sex was dirty and never spoken about. Hope that doesn't come across offensive, and I understand why so much over-exposure would cause its own set of problems, but not understanding that particular reaction.

I should have been clearer. He didn't know that I found it at the age I did (far far too young); he knew I'd found it by around 11. R-rated movies and language were out in the open; his porn collection and addiction was not. It didn't exist, you see, because it didn't fit in my mother's view of herself as a "good person." I hid what I found and used it for my own pleasure in my room behind a locked door. I lived in constant fear of getting caught by my mother and the one time she did find some books in my closet, she couldn't even bring herself to talk to her own daughter about sexuality, she sent my dad to confront me about it. He ended up sarcastically laughing at me. Can you imagine the experience of being a tween, having your hidden sexual activity thrown in your face by your father and then him basically thinking it was all a big joke and humiliating you? I get all stabby just thinking about it. :angry-banghead: I just recently worked through all this in therapy and it was a really huge thing for me, that's why I don't mind sharing. And again, it's why I kept my wee ones extremely innocent and have always had an open door policy with them for talking about ANYTHING including sexuality. We are fairly conservative when it comes to that topic but my kids aren't embarrassed to come to me with ANY question and that means the world to me.

[Caribou]

I am older than most other FJ's and have 2 adult children in their mid 20's. I was raised completely religion-free and my husband with only the vaguest influence. I find fundamentalists fascinating and terrifying (with their ever-growing political influence) which is what led me to FJ to start with.

We flirted with the organized church for 2 years (liberal Presbyterian) when our children were small but came to realize it just wasn't something we could follow. We are atheists as are our children, although that was strictly their choice.

I (now on the other side of 50) was raised an only child by older parents. I was given few restrictions and rules growing up (and this was in the 60's!) but there was an unspoken understanding that certain things were expected of me - proper behaviour, good grades, university degree, civic- mindedness - all of which were accomplished. My parents' attitude was "we will trust you until you give us a reason not to". I never did.

We raised our children the same way. It was simply expected that they do well in school, get at least a post-secondary degree, behave responsibly and develop empathy and compassion for others. They never had strict curfews, we didn't monitor their every move and we trusted them to choose friends and activities wisely. We were open about their growing sexuality and understood when each began showing interest in the opposite sex. Both moved considerable distances away for their undergrads at 17, studied internationally for their 3rd years, obtained masters degrees and currently are employed with companies on 2 different continents.

My daughter did not become a drug-abusing "slut". My son didn't develop into an alcoholic asshole. They are worldly, urbane, successful young adults who are contributing to society far more than any of these uber-sheltered fundamentalist offspring are or ever will. All without a hint of religion.

The hobbling of these sheltered children confounds me. Deliberately instilling fear and ignorance and insecurity in your children is a concept I just can't fathom. To what end do you want your kids to be perpetual infants, "safe" in the confines of your home? Who does this benefit? Or to simply want your children to marry young and breed uncontrollably like rabbits for the glory of your deity, to live in poverty and despondency. Even if I did believe in a higher power, I couldn't believe this is what it would want for future generations.

I take comfort in the hope that such beliefs and lifestyles are unsustainable and will quietly fade away in a generation or two.

[roddma]

I agree fear is part of the reason, but also guilt. Michelle Duggar used to wear pants and they watched TV. The miscarriage after Josh happened which thwarted them into Fundamentalism. They were already Christian, but mainstream. Just think if the miscarriage had never happened. Would we know who they are? Why did the miscarriage alone cause them to convert to extremes? Is Michelle hding something else? I know miscarriages are painful, though, most women would not resort to 19 kids. In study of other Fundie parents, I find their past is a factor in tight control. For isntance, Wendy Jeub had two kids before Chris. The Duggars, Jeubs, Bates, etc go to great lengths ensuring thier kids never make these mistakes. They love thier kids, but fail to see they are doing them a disservice. I have seen both sides of the spectrum myself and neither works. You need a balance.

[1004srs]

My job is to raise my children so they can become productive members of society. A 30-something SAH person is not a productive member of society. (Arndts? Maxwells?)

[realist51]

This kind of conversation is what keeps me coming back to Free Jinger. I, too, am finished with child-rearing. I'm not finished being a mother, though, and the interplay of my kids' own personalities with our home environment and the kind of community we lived in continues to play out. I grew up near some very fundamentalist communities (Amish and Mennonite), and I have to admit that I envied them their strong family bonds, simple lifestyles, and sense of calm. I always joke that, at heart, I am Amish. (Although, I am an atheist.) I ended up raising my children in the place in the country that is farthest, culturally, from the Amish as one could get--Southern California. I have to admit that I tried to shelter my children, as much as possible, from the dominant culture around us. I was very worried about the level of materialism, the seeming hedonism, and the lack of a sense of responsibility for others, especially children. I felt like an immigrant in my own country, and most of my friends ended up being immigrants because their values seemed closer to mine. I wanted to homeschool my kids, but they did not want that, and this is where I guess I differ from these uber-fundamentalists. I thought homeschooling would be the best option for my family, but, when my kids did not agree, I found the best schools I could for them, and I sent them there. While flirting with homeschooling, we spent some time with homeschooling groups, and I was a bit alarmed by the amount of Jesus talk. I did not know, at that time, that religious homeschooling had become such a big thing. When we decided not to homeschool after all, I remember one of the Jesus mom's saying, in quite a bitter tone, "Well, she really wasn't committed to homeschooling from the beginning." I was kind of surprised at the hostility behind the comment. Anyway, I can't say that school-life was smooth going for us. My kids did suffer from the amount of competitiveness around them. They also suffered from having a mother who didn't want to jump into the fray with the other mothers and who was often a bit of an outsider. So, I guess in "fundamentalist" speak, I was avoiding the world I lived in. Nevertheless, I ALWAYS had as my goal to send competent 18-year-old into the world. I did often say, "I am not raising children; I am raising competent adults." I just wanted them to have some important values that I didn't often see reflected in the community around us. So, here is how it played out: one child, like me, gravitated to immigrants. At a young age, while returning from a trip to Mexico where we had gone to do a "Habitat for Humanity" type project, she said, "I met kids there who only eat every other day, but they are MUCH happier than the kids in our town in CA." This child is not materialistic, and, once she left CA for college, she did not return. My second child does everything she can to fit into the culture around her. She doesn't understand why I would not embrace it. Money is great, power is great, and the opinions of our neighbors is VERY important. Interestingly, this child has become involved with fundamentalist religion. She SAYS it's because it's a group of nice people who have better values than what she sees in the general population. I suspect that she did drink some of my brand of kool-aid (non-materialistic, simple living) but that she really wants to be part of a community. This child also has quite a lot of free-floating anxiety and is prone to black and white thinking. I really do think that having "rules" helps her with the anxiety. She often comments that she doesn't know what the right thing to do is and what the right choices to make are unless someone tells her. I even remember her saying, when she was quite young, "Just tell me what to do, and I will do it, but don't ask me to figure out for myself what I should do." So this is a long-winded way of agreeing that, yes, I do think that there is a lot of anxiety behind the embrace of fundamentalism, especially when the broader culture is changing or doesn't offer the kind of structure some people need. I think the motivation to retreat from the world can come from a mismatch between one's own expectations for how things "should" be and how things really are. I also think there is some degree of heritability to religiosity. My husband's family is very religious (Catholic) but not fundamentalist. He is not religious.