The shit may be hitting the fan for Mormondom too.

[uber frau]

Just when VF has imploded, and Bill Gothard might find himself being asked some uncomfortable questions by a prosecutor, Thomas S. Monson, President of the COJCOLDS, has been issued a court summons to answer to allegations of fraud in the UK. Tom Phillips, an ex-Mormon who climbed to quite a high rank in the Mormon church in the UK including attaining the second anointing, has filed a case alleging that, as head of the corporation that is the COJCOLDS, Monson made false and misleading claims to ensure financial gain. It seems quite complicated, especially as I have no real knowledge of UK law, but it's seems like it might be worth a watch.

 

mormonthink.com/

 

Here's the wiki entry outlining the UK Fraud Act 2006.

 

 

Quote

The Act gives a statutory definition of the criminal offence of fraud, defining it in three classes - fraud by false representation, fraud by failing to disclose information, and fraud by abuse of position. It provides that a person found guilty of fraud was liable to a fine or imprisonment for up to twelve months on summary conviction (six months in Northern Ireland), or a fine or imprisonment for up to ten years on conviction on indictment. This Act largely replaces the laws relating to obtaining property by deception, obtaining a pecuniary advantage and other offences that were created under the Theft Act 1978. These offences attracted much criticism for their complexity and difficulty in proving at court. Much of the Theft Act 1978 has been repealed, however, the offence of making off without payment, defined under section 3 has not been affected.

 

"Fraud by false representation" is defined by Section 2 of the Act as a case where a person makes "any representation as to fact or law ... express or implied" which they know to be untrue or misleading.

 

"Fraud by failing to disclose information" is defined by Section 3 of the Act as a case where a person fails to disclose any information to a third party when they are under a legal duty to disclose such information.

 

"Fraud by abuse of position" is defined by Section 4 of the Act as a case where a person occupies a position where they are expected to safeguard the financial interests of another person, and abuses that position; this includes cases where the abuse consisted of an omission rather than an overt act.

 

In all three classes of fraud, it requires that for an offence to have occurred, the person must have acted dishonestly, and that they had to have acted with the intent of making a gain for themselves or anyone else, or inflicting a loss (or a risk of loss) on another.

 

There's more coverage here: mormondisclosures.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/media-blitzed-monson-summoned-to-court.html

As well as threads on the various and assorted ex and New Order Mormon boards.

 

Apparently, Tom Phillips's blog was hacked and he was forced to publish before he was quite ready. It was intended to be published as a scoop by mainstream media, but he's missed out on that one. So far only USA Today has covered it, I wonder if anyone else will pick it up.

[Hane]

It's troubling that LDS leaders insist on seeing members' tax returns, to ensure that they're "paying a full tithe" (10% of their gross income), while not sharing the church's financial statements. Such shenanigans may fly in the US, but not in other countries, where the LDS is nowhere near as much a force to be reckoned with.

[mirele]

It's troubling that LDS leaders insist on seeing members' tax returns, to ensure that they're "paying a full tithe" (10% of their gross income), while not sharing the church's financial statements. Such shenanigans may fly in the US, but not in other countries, where the LDS is nowhere near as much a force to be reckoned with.

I never showed a tax return to my bishop when I had a temple recommend and I would have objected strenuously to same. I live here in the USA. (For the record, I resigned my membership over Prop 8, so you know where I stand with regards to the Mormon church.)

As far as this effort goes, it's a heaping helping of low-class horse puckey. I've been informed this is a private prosecution, not a Crown action. So it's more than likely this thing will get drop-kicked by a real court once it's considered. Even so, you have to keep in mind that Thomas S. Monson is a US citizen, resident in the US and no US court is going to extradite him (or you, or me) for something that is not a crime in the USA. On top of that, even if a court was presented with a request for extradition, our courts have been instructed by the Supreme Court to avoid issues of religious dogma like the plague. Since the actual summons mentions seven items that are basically faith-based, this thing has crash landed before it even got off the ground.

http://mormonthink.com/img/monson-summons1.jpg << link to the summons, not breaking because I know MT wants the publicity

It would have done the person pushing this (Tom Phillips) well to have consulted with a US attorney before pulling this stupid shit.

And here's a story about the UK legal aspect:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/05/l ... s-origins/ << RawStory doesn't care.

[Hane]

Mirele, I was going by anecdotal evidence from an ex-Mormon forum, so.I apologize for the generalization.

[lizziesmom]

Did I miss something? Is some governmental agency investigating ATI and Gothard?

[mirele]

Mirele, I was going by anecdotal evidence from an ex-Mormon forum, so.I apologize for the generalization.

Yup, the ex-Mormon forums have been making me grind my teeth in utter frustration over the past 24 hours. I saw the same thing with Scientology; people thought their court cases were going to be the silver bullet. That was nearly 20 years ago. Two decades later, what has caused the diminishment of Scientology has been a combination of sheer perseverence over many years, Scientology fuckups, high-level members leaving to tell their stories and the entry of Anonymous into the game. (It also helps when comedy shows make fun of Scientology.) So far, I've not seen that among the ex-Mormons.

[nana sew dear]

Yup, the ex-Mormon forums have been making me grind my teeth in utter frustration over the past 24 hours. I saw the same thing with Scientology; people thought their court cases were going to be the silver bullet. That was nearly 20 years ago. Two decades later, what has caused the diminishment of Scientology has been a combination of sheer perseverence over many years, Scientology fuckups, high-level members leaving to tell their stories and the entry of Anonymous into the game. (It also helps when comedy shows make fun of Scientology.) So far, I've not seen that among the ex-Mormons.[/quote]

Trey Parker;"South Park" and the "Book of Mormon" ? :) He's not an ex-member but seems to have an understanding of the basic facts.

[Rachel333]

I don't have a terribly high opinion of the people on ex-Mormon forums, to be honest (I've liked all the ex-Mormons I've met personally, though--they weren't really that type I see on the forums). I used to read them a lot, but I saw a lot of really disgusting things being said. Leaving Mormonism hasn't seemed to make many of them better people.

I think anger when you first leave is pretty normal and probably good to work through. I went through that myself when I left Christianity. Now that I've had time to sort of incorporate my lack of belief into my identity, I'm not angry anymore. Some "righteous anger" can be a good thing--I think that's driven a lot of changes throughout history--and I certainly think the abuses of religion should be addressed and not ignored, but I just don't think that stewing in anger and making it such a huge part of your life and identity is psychologically healthy.

I always think of a woman I talked to once who said she was hesitant to date an ex-Mormon again because her ex-Mormon ex-boyfriend was far more interested in spending hours watching Gordon B. Hinckley videos and ranting about them than in having sex with her. :lol:

[Beammeup]

It's troubling that LDS leaders insist on seeing members' tax returns, to ensure that they're "paying a full tithe" (10% of their gross income), while not sharing the church's financial statements. Such shenanigans may fly in the US, but not in other countries, where the LDS is nowhere near as much a force to be reckoned with.

I also have never been asked nor would have shown my tax return. I've also never heard of it happening. That doesn't mean some rouge bishop somewhere didn't get this bright idea to do so, but there's a singular flaw in this claim. Tithing settlement is in December. People can't even start doing their taxes until January, so anyone's tax forms are at least a year old.

There's plenty of reasons to take issue with the LDS church, but making stuff up isn't the way to go.

[lilwriter85]

I have read the ex-mormon forum off and on, over the past few years. I remember a thread regarding tax returns and some claimed that they had been asked and others said they were never asked. Another site that has brough tax returns and LDS leadership is GOMI. The threads about a couple of well known mommy bloggers have led to debate over the Mormonism and I recall the tax returns topic has come up in the NieNie thread and ThatWife thread.

[silverspoons]

Having to show your tax returns is hit or miss. My husband was an active Mormon for 27 years and never showed his taxes once. I just asked him and he said most years the bishop and ward clerk knew the company he worked for and his approx. salary since several members worked there so when he put down his earnings it was not questioned. The last few years while he still went to church weekly and was in the elders quorum presidency, he did not want a temple recommend(he always felt weird about the temple) so he skipped the meeting.

My daughter's BFF father is a ward clerk and a dr. He is very rigid and I know he makes sure everything is accounted for at his ward which is 2 blocks east of my home. In our ward the bishop is so happy if people just show up he is not pushy at all about tithing, tax returns or temple recommends.

I think this is one of the issues with the LDS church today. They built churches that all look the same but lately due to picking younger leaders on the local level is that the rules are starting to vary from ward to ward. My daughters school has about 510 students and they come from 39 wards, and the school boundaries are barley a 1.75 miles radius so this subdivision is near 99% LDS. 39 bishops and I hear women talking all the time how they wish they lived one block over so they could be with a different bishop or ward.

The LDS church has more money & connections so I'm sure this will not blow up. I always thought Gordon Hinckley would be called out for many questionable activites (including involvement in the Hoffman's forgery/murders, and a book that came out in the 80's talking about his involvement with drinking /drugs and sexuality) before he became prophet but instead he was just shown by the media as a nice old man doing charity work at 90. I remember saying they will never make him prophet he has so much baggage but it seemed the day he was "chosen" the bags got lost.

[OkToBeTakei]

Under little-used legal procedures, people who say they have evidence that someone has committed a crime can ask a magistrate to issue a summons requiring them to attend a court hearing.

The district judge would then decide whether or not to proceed with a case or dismiss it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... ching.html

I wonder if she even looked at it? :lol:

As for if he would be extradited, probably not unless someone has a case of the stupids and wants to rock a political mine sweeping boat. The fact he is a US citizen living in the US does not though protect him from breaking laws in other lands and being asked to answer. I'm not sure I understand the OP's point on that. The case would be heard in the UK not in the US so any 'don't touch with a barge-pole' type directive would not apply.

BUT it's not going to happen, although it would be really interesting if it did.

[Coconut Flan]

I have a neighbor who swears she and her husband were asked to show their tax return one year and that's why she and her husband left the church. Someone supposedly ratted her out for taking a part-time job and not tithing on it. That's the story she tells anyway.

[mirele]

I have a neighbor who swears she and her husband were asked to show their tax return one year and that's why she and her husband left the church. Someone supposedly ratted her out for taking a part-time job and not tithing on it. That's the story she tells anyway.

It's not the general policy, but there are rogue bishops. And notorious ward gossips.

[nokidsmom]

I think anger when you first leave is pretty normal and probably good to work through. I went through that myself when I left Christianity. Now that I've had time to sort of incorporate my lack of belief into my identity, I'm not angry anymore. Some "righteous anger" can be a good thing--I think that's driven a lot of changes throughout history--and I certainly think the abuses of religion should be addressed and not ignored, but I just don't think that stewing in anger and making it such a huge part of your life and identity is psychologically healthy.

I always think of a woman I talked to once who said she was hesitant to date an ex-Mormon again because her ex-Mormon ex-boyfriend was far more interested in spending hours watching Gordon B. Hinckley videos and ranting about them than in having sex with her. :lol:

This reminds me of someone I knew. Really great guy as well as his wife and kids. Lifelong Mormon, active in the church, leader of the Boy Scout troup in his ward, the whole bit. After a long period of questioning, he ended up rejecting Mormonism and along with it he broke with his family. He's been angry and bitter about it ever since never mind it was his decision. He used to write some very thought provoking essays online that he would invite me to read, but now all it is are rants about the LDS church and his TBM family of origin who keep trying to bring him back into the fold. This has been going on for 6-7 years now and the last time I went to his site, it was still more rants. He ended up moving away and because of the family bothering him he went off FB and all social media so I don't have any contact with him.

[snarktastic]

I don't think Monson's going to end up in an English prison and I'd be surprised if the guys who brought this case think it could end that way. It's about publicity on the downside of the LDS church IMHO.

On the other hand, I think that the British lawyers being quoted in most of the media stories are coming from a particular right-wing direction. Harvey Kass used to be the Mail's libel lawyer, 'nuff said. Neil Addison - well just google him.

[skankbiscuit]

I would love to see "The Church" go down....former LDS here.

Also, in my experience, tithing was an honor system, one of those "between you and the LORD" things. However, if one was a physician and only tithing 100 bucks a month they would know something wasn't right. They ask you at your temple recommend interview if you pay "a full and honest tithe". It's a yes or no question.

[ADoyle90815]

I would love to see "The Church" go down....former LDS here.

Also, in my experience, tithing was an honor system, one of those "between you and the LORD" things. However, if one was a physician and only tithing 100 bucks a month they would know something wasn't right. They ask you at your temple recommend interview if you pay "a full and honest tithe". It's a yes or no question.

Another ex-Mormon here, and from what I remember, the bishop my ex-husband and I had never asked to see tax returns during tithing settlement. It was an honor system in my experience, as the tithing question was only a yes or no one.