Pro Life reaching Europe?/Spain wants to ban Abortion MERGED

[Cran]

For a long, long time, I was mortified by the religious Right in the US trying to influence politics and limit access to healthcare and abortion for women - unfortunately, with success in many states.

On the other hand, it was the same feeling I'm watching the news with: Its elsewhere, it can't happen here, not to me. And I was encouraged by Ireland, with its harsh anti-abortion law, that finally made baby steps making it possible to get an abortion if the mother's life is threatened.

But what popped up in my newsfeed some minutes ago?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26000528

The law would limit abortion to cases of rape, and instances where the health of the mother was at serious risk.

Ok, it's not Germany but Spain, and abortion is a topic the majority here got last worked up about several decades ago. But the problem I deemed so conveniently far away, with an ocean between me and the US, gets closer.

What is UP with legislators/people these days? Are we going backwards instead of forwards? I start to feel really vulnerable due to my sex. And that's so wrong.

And I really do not know what can be done about it.

[Pretzel]

Cran, I hear you. Did you read about the online discussions on the new teaching schedules concerning the inclusion of LGBT topics in sex ed in Germany lately? It's mortifying. I never thought people here could get so worked up about this.

[Marianne]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26000528

Spain wants to ban abortion, except in case of rape or disease who are life-threatening (?) for the woman. There was a large riots in Madrid with Spanish, Portuguese, and French women.

For me, there's two things that should result in an immediate expulsion from the European Union and the euro zone: the death penalty and the prohibition of abortion.

And I don't understand WHY Mariano Rajoy does this. It's very inpopular.

[Melissa1977]

I'm from Spain. Abortion is legal here. Now the goverment wants to ban it. But even conservative people are pro-abortion, specially when the baby is going to be born disabled.Even the goverment has internal fights because not all of them are anti-abortion, just a little part of them who are catholic fundamentalist (opus dei). So I don't think goverment finally will ban abortion, they would loosea lot of votes.

[Marianne]

France has removed the word "distress" of abortion laws, for the anniversary of this legislation, to symbolize that abortions could be done without judgment, without the woman is "in distress", just because she doesn't want it.

but it's the only good news, here. The far-right Catholic groups have sent sms to parents saying "we will teach your kids masturbation !" because of a project on gender equality in schools. Parents have removed children from school ! And I don't speak about the riots "day of anger", who was a big demonstration by all the catholic, FN, nostalgic of petain... I feel so bad for my country. I'm "protected" because I live in a very liberal city, there's only atheist, socialist and communist in my neighborhood, but every time I go in North of France or South-East, urg, i feel like i have change of world.

But I saw on the website of the Senate that there is a project of law to authorize the homeschool only for children with health problems, and to force more control by inspectors, (currently children who are in "homeschool" had two visits by inspectors by year, and pass a level test per year, this is ridiculous, they should be tested once a month at least, and have an interview with an assistant social once a year). I hope it will pass ! The Senate is in majority socialist, so, hope.

[Anny Nym]

That´s quite a discussed topic in Spain. Apparently, the current reigning conservative Partido Popular (PP) wants to ban abortions, which not only meets widespread critic within the vast majority of spanish citizens (articles say around 70% are against such a ban), but also earned negative critic from the PP´s own ranges: particular the Nuevas Generaciones aka the youth branch ot the PP oppose it.

Other thing is, Spain has massive problems with mass unemployment and mass evictions (due to a crashed real estate bubble) , making whole families homeless. The vast majority indeed knows, a law which would burden jobless and even homeless women (and families) with babies no one could take proper care of, only leads to ... well more desperate mothers/families and desperate actions.

I don´t see this law passing any time soon. But I see the reigning times of PP pass pretty soon.

[Anny Nym]

I'm from Spain. Abortion is legal here. Now the goverment wants to ban it. But even conservative people are pro-abortion, specially when the baby is going to be born disabled.Even the goverment has internal fights because not all of them are anti-abortion, just a little part of them who are catholic fundamentalist (opus dei). So I don't think goverment finally will ban abortion, they would loosea lot of votes.

Oh, they are literally the worst! Opus Dei are scary like Hell!

There was an incident 2-3 years ago, in one of the main mental health facilities in Vienna: A Opus Dei somehow could got his hands on the therapy choices for patients with heavy schizophrenic disorders and arranged EXORCISMS AT THE HOSPITAL...! One died, the Opus Dei was removed from his position at the hospital board.

[Marianne]

about Spain, i was very chock of the beatification of 522 "martyrs" of the Spanish Civil War. My grandparents and great grandparents were Republicans who had emigrated to France because of the war (in a city were spanish emigration was very high), and... I don't know, i know that the civil war was a war, there were atrocities on both sides, but it shocked me (and I don't speak about my grandparents..) . What the spanish people think about this, Melissa ?

[Seren Ann]

But I saw on the website of the Senate that there is a project of law to authorize the homeschool only for children with health problems, and to force more control by inspectors, (currently children who are in "homeschool" had two visits by inspectors by year, and pass a level test per year, this is ridiculous, they should be tested once a month at least, and have an interview with an assistant social once a year). I hope it will pass ! The Senate is in majority socialist, so, hope.

I have the french nationality and was raised in France, and I disagree with you there. I was homeschooled from CM1 to 4ème. No health problems, no religious reasons. I was simply bored to tears at school, and some of the teacher didn't know how to deal with me at all (don't get me wrong, I was never a confrontative or disruptive child, quite the opposite. I was very quiet, just did my own thing. Apparently, this was unacceptable, so a few teachers set out to break me.) I was humiliated, treated like a freak for reading when I was bored, the teacher would single me out and make me cry in front of everyone, you know how the whole class sniggers then. I became extremely stressed, sore belly every day before going to school, I lived in fear (keep in mind, I was only 7), I was just generally very, very unhappy. My father saw this, and decided to homeschool me. (He became a teacher himself around that time, he now teaches collège age children but he has also taught lycée students, so he is very well placed to know all about the schooling system.) We used a curriculum that a parisian school produces, which is quite old-fashioned in a way (Cours Hattemer). It has its good points and its disadvantages, but it was enough of a framework to make sure I was not at a disadvantage when I went back to public school, quite the opposite.

This was perfect for me at that age. I would pretty much do everything alone, I only needed help for the dictations and recitatations. I was just so happy to be able to go at my own speed and manage my own time ! At that time, I did 2 school years in one, without having an adult behind forcing me to work. Later on, as I developped my own preferences and became tired of some subjects, my parents had to get more involved to make sure I learned everything in the program. As I grew up I felt I wanted more independance from home, I started my teenage years, and my parents saw that I needed more social interaction so they sent me back to school. In retrospect, starting in the middle of collège wasn't the best of ideas, but I pulled through. I really believe that my parents did the best they could for me. Had I been forced to stay in school, I would have continued to have a miserable childhood, I would certainly have lost motivation, and failed my studies. As it is, I am studying to become a vet and I feel I have my chances :)

All of this is to say that it is a mistake to believe all homeschooling is conducted with the goal of indoctrinating and dumbing down children. Sometimes, people see that their children aren't doing well in such a rigid system that expects everyone to fit into the same mold. Sometimes parents want to ensure their children keep their inner drive to learn, which is lost so easily in school. Sometimes parents have the best intentions, and succeed in teaching their child to learn, to stay curious, to have an open mind. Isn't that the ultimate goal of school ? That's what they keep telling us anyway. School is about learning how to learn. Yet our current system very often fails at this.

I guess what I'm trying to say is our schooling system is far from ideal. So why not let the people who want to school their children their way give it a try ? Fine, test their children regularly. But give them a chance. Maybe it won't be perfect, but schools sure as hell aren't perfect either. For me, the issue is not one of banning homschooling. The issue is one of implementing an efficient testing system to make sure no homeschooled children are disadvantaged, compared to ones that go to school. That would be a lot more constructive.

Back to the subject of this thread, I am horrified at what is going on in Spain... I always thought we were in a battle for progress in our rights. I didn't think I would see rights regress in my lifetime ! It's quite a shock. The atmosphere in France has been worrying me a lot in the last couple of years... Ever since the debate on gay mariage started, the surge of hate and intolerance has been eye opening. I will never see my country the same...

[lilith]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26000528

Spain wants to ban abortion, except in case of rape or disease who are life-threatening (?) for the woman. There was a large riots in Madrid with Spanish, Portuguese, and French women.

For me, there's two things that should result in an immediate expulsion from the European Union and the euro zone: the death penalty and the prohibition of abortion.

And I don't understand WHY Mariano Rajoy does this. It's very inpopular.

Aren't there already EU countries in which abortion is criminalised? I'm thinking Ireland and Poland, for starters.

[Marianne]

I felt very well at school until CM1 . Before, I had lectures (Not sure of the words, "cours magistraux", the teacher explain, the student listen), and for me it was very good, very comfortable (I was a child of foster car ), and then there was this teacher who wanted to be modern, so there was a lot of activities , work group, he never gave clear instruction , and it was scary. then I was a monster, very uncomfortable at school until the 3ème (where I was diagnose by a psychiatrist with a psychiatric disorder called reactive attachment disease of childhood - i don't know the english name for this disease, but it's more common in USA, say the psychiatrist), I was deschooled during 4 month in 5ème .

Our school system does not know how to care of suffering children. It don't know how to listen and helping this children. There is practically no experimental public school : Montessori , Freinet , school for the gifted ("surdoués" - not sure of the world), and I don't speak about autism. Today, for a child that is in suffering in school, there's 2 solutions : stay at school and suffer, or your parent have monney and the children can be homeschool/going to a private school. Personally, I think a child who is in suffering at school falls into the category " health problem who require homeschool . "

But +1 about the atmosphere in France.

about the pro-life en Europe, Hongrie have write in its constitution that embryo is a human being. And this country (which takes a disturbing fascist turn) is still allowed to be in the European Union ><

[Seren Ann]

I felt very well at school until CM1 . Before, I had lectures (Not sure of the words, "cours magistraux", the teacher explain, the student listen), and for me it was very good, very comfortable (I was a child of foster car ), and then there was this teacher who wanted to be modern, so there was a lot of activities , work group, he never gave clear instruction , and it was scary. then I was a monster, very uncomfortable at school until the 3ème (where I was diagnose by a psychiatrist with a psychiatric disorder called reactive attachment disease of childhood - i don't know the english name for this disease, but it's more common in USA, say the psychiatrist), I was deschooled during 4 month in 5ème .

Our school system does not know how to care of suffering children. It don't know how to listen and helping this children. There is practically no experimental public school : Montessori , Freinet , school for the gifted ("surdoués" - not sure of the world), and I don't speak about autism. Today, for a child that is in suffering in school, there's 2 solutions : stay at school and suffer, or your parent have monney and the children can be homeschool/going to a private school. Personally, I think a child who is in suffering at school falls into the category " health problem who require homeschool . "

But +1 about the atmosphere in France.

about the pro-life en Europe, Hongrie have write in its constitution that embryo is a human being. And this country (which takes a disturbing fascist turn) is still allowed to be in the European Union ><

You see, I don't think they could have diagnosed me with anything. There is nothing "wrong" with me, at least there never was originally until my life screwed me up. I was just hypersensitive. It's not an illness, and I didn't start off suffering.

It just means I'm part of the category of people that aren't the most adapted to our style of schooling system. That in and of itself is definitely not a pathology.

I guess what I'm saying is, you don't have to wait until the school system has inflicted enough suffering on those people that are not very well adapted, that you can diagnose them with stuff. If their parents are aware enough to notice they aren't thriving, they can be proactive and choose a less rigid style of education bafore any damage is done. I think that is a lot better than having to "recuperate" a child that is suffering and may already be disgusted with learning.

Also, if you are a dedicated parent with time on your hands and you know that you can do better than the school system (not very hard : you would be one adult taking care of what, 2.1 children on average ? When a teacher has to deal with 30. If you do things properly, use quality curricula, and know what your limits are to then refer your children to more knowledgeable people on such and such subject, which some homeschooling parents absolutely do, then you can raise very balanced, healthy children who are often more advanced than conventionaly schooled children, simply because their education follows their rythm of learning.) Then why on earth would we want to forbid that ? After all, at risk of stating the obvious, it is a biological norm in social mammals that the parents (and extended family) educate their children and teach them all about life.

I do think schools are very useful and have by and large been a positive addition to our societies. But I don't agree that just because schools now exist, parents should be stripped of the right to educate their children if they so choose.

Again, if we develop efficient testing systems, then the negative side of homeschooling (extremists indoctrinating their children, people not knowing when they are not competent enough to teach their children anymore) could be almost completely eliminated, while still keeping the positive aspects. You don't need to be suffering from a pathology to benefit from an education that is adapted to you and your learning speed.

[Melissa1977]

I'm from Spain. Abortion is legal here. Now the goverment wants to ban it. But even conservative people are pro-abortion, specially when the baby is going to be born disabled.Even the goverment has internal fights because not all of them are anti-abortion, just a little part of them who are catholic fundamentalist (opus dei). So I don't think goverment finally will ban abortion, they would loosea lot of votes.

[Melissa1977]

about Spain, i was very chock of the beatification of 522 "martyrs" of the Spanish Civil War. My grandparents and great grandparents were Republicans who had emigrated to France because of the war (in a city were spanish emigration was very high), and... I don't know, i know that the civil war was a war, there were atrocities on both sides, but it shocked me (and I don't speak about my grandparents..) . What the spanish people think about this, Melissa ?

The most of people doesn't care about this. The goverment did the beatification as a way to content the most conservative wing. That's because civil war crimes were being investigated and a little part of people (this ultra conservative wing) were upset.

[Confused_by_religion]

There seems to be a bit of a conservative backlash in Europe and I can't understand why. It's not as if those governments are mega-conservative. They are rather pragmatic, I think. Is it the fear of demographic change? Are governments getting more and more control-freaky? Is it that economic downturns lead to a decline in liberal values? I can't really put my finger on it, but this trend towards more conservative, more controlling thinking in governments creeps me out. Wrong. It actually scares me. I wonder what they are going to do to citizens when they feel threatened at some point.

[Arete]

I would say anywhere in Europe right now where conservative and in some cases downright fascist elements are getting noisier has either worry over the economy, immigration, or both issues together fueling the resurgence.

[atzavara]

Hi! I'm from Spain too. Actually I'm a Catalan but that's a very different story...Anyway, apart from what's already been said the real problem with the new law's project is that it makes women be like underage not real cityzens that cannot take any decisions by themselves. It's like the government has the power to be the guardian of women's choices uppon their own boddies. That's what enrages me the most. It is a law that tries to control women's sexuality and boddies. It is an anti women law

[Confused_by_religion]

I would say anywhere in Europe right now where conservative and in some cases downright fascist elements are getting noisier has either worry over the economy, immigration, or both issues together fueling the resurgence.

Yes, but I don't understand the mechanism and the thinking behind this. There's high unemployment, so let's ban abortion and suddenly, jobs are going to rain down from heaven?

Who is it that thinks like this?

Who is it that promotes these ideas and uses them for their own gain?

[Angharad Crewe]

You see, I don't think they could have diagnosed me with anything. There is nothing "wrong" with me, at least there never was originally until my life screwed me up. I was just hypersensitive. It's not an illness, and I didn't start off suffering.

It just means I'm part of the category of people that aren't the most adapted to our style of schooling system. That in and of itself is definitely not a pathology.

I guess what I'm saying is, you don't have to wait until the school system has inflicted enough suffering on those people that are not very well adapted, that you can diagnose them with stuff. If their parents are aware enough to notice they aren't thriving, they can be proactive and choose a less rigid style of education bafore any damage is done. I think that is a lot better than having to "recuperate" a child that is suffering and may already be disgusted with learning.

Also, if you are a dedicated parent with time on your hands and you know that you can do better than the school system (not very hard : you would be one adult taking care of what, 2.1 children on average ? When a teacher has to deal with 30. If you do things properly, use quality curricula, and know what your limits are to then refer your children to more knowledgeable people on such and such subject, which some homeschooling parents absolutely do, then you can raise very balanced, healthy children who are often more advanced than conventionaly schooled children, simply because their education follows their rythm of learning.) Then why on earth would we want to forbid that ? After all, at risk of stating the obvious, it is a biological norm in social mammals that the parents (and extended family) educate their children and teach them all about life.

I do think schools are very useful and have by and large been a positive addition to our societies. But I don't agree that just because schools now exist, parents should be stripped of the right to educate their children if they so choose.

Again, if we develop efficient testing systems, then the negative side of homeschooling (extremists indoctrinating their children, people not knowing when they are not competent enough to teach their children anymore) could be almost completely eliminated, while still keeping the positive aspects. You don't need to be suffering from a pathology to benefit from an education that is adapted to you and your learning speed.

In the US math education has been less than impressive, mostly due to a ridiculously ineffective curriculum that emphasizes literacy over numbers. For that reason, my parents pulled me out of my public school math classes, so I was essentially homeschooled in math, but attended regular classes. I think if there are parents who are identifying problems with content or delivery in schools, they should absolutely have the right to homeschool. There is a distinct difference between fundie "homeschooling" and conscientious parents trying to give their kids the best educational experience possible.

[Arete]

Yes, but I don't understand the mechanism and the thinking behind this. There's high unemployment, so let's ban abortion and suddenly, jobs are going to rain down from heaven?

Who is it that thinks like this?

Who is it that promotes these ideas and uses them for their own gain?

No, the politicians who are pushing this in Spain are very few, and are answering to even fewer. This is not the will of the people in Spain, and the politicos grossly miscalculated the appeal of this move, which is essentially none.

That is separate from the resurgence of right wing activism on the continent. Parties and movements like that in France, Greece, Italy, Hungary, etc look for scapegoats to explain economic crisis and social change. There has to be an "other". It is the refugee/gypsy/immigrant/greedy German corporation/ the US's fault we have such high unemployment/debt/prices. It is never actually the faults of individual governments and the voters who put them in office. Any change is going to destroy the country and prep it for Muslim/German/US takeover.

Conspiracy theories are very useful to spread to angry voters because they redirect anger and absolve citizens of responsibility. Doesn't matter if you are talking about a teabagger in the US or a right wing kook in the EU.

[tigerchild]

Yes, but I don't understand the mechanism and the thinking behind this. There's high unemployment, so let's ban abortion and suddenly, jobs are going to rain down from heaven?

Who is it that thinks like this?

Who is it that promotes these ideas and uses them for their own gain?

This seems to be a popular trend amongst humanity in general, *including* the US. I believe it tends to start with blaming "those people" for things like job losses, ect. The need for the "good people" (traditionally white, or a subset of the same) to have babies for the sake of continuing the culture. The need for strict, understandable control because people are frightened of change. This is overgeneralizing, but damn if you don't see that sort of thing cropping up all the time when there's massive waves of conservativism/state control of very personal aspects of people's lives.

Haven't there always been states in Europe that have (in some cases infamously) banned abortion, though? I'm thinking Romania, which I don't think was influenced at all by craziness in the US. Or are we talking only specifically about Western Europe here? I think as racism/fearmongering is on the rise, unfortunately the US religious version of it gives a new "justification" that might be appealing to people who already feel that way in Europe, perhaps. It's attractive if you're fear-driven and looking for someone to blame for the threatening changes you see, and want a very "simple" well here's how you fix it plan.

[Arete]

European racism has never needed US racism to exist. There has always been strong antiMuslim sentiment in Southern Europe and Roma have always been considered lessers throughout the continent.

[Melissa1977]

Although ultra-conservationism increases in Europe in each economical crisis, anti-abortion is not one of its goals. Anti-abortion people are very, very few.

In fact, maybe in US you think Spain is a very catholic country, but it's not real. Most people says they're catholic by tradition, but only go to church for weddings and doesn't follow church rules.

[Ausje]

I was furious about the way this Spanish business was reported in our newspaper this morning. The little summary of the main article under the headline said "The conservative government wants to take away women's right to decide on abortions. They (women) want to decide for themselves." (Die konservative Regierung will Frauen die Entscheidung über einen Schwangerschaftsabbruch abnehmen. Diese wollen selbst bestimmen.) Quite apart from the issue of banning abortions, since when is it OK to speak about the government and womwn as if they are two mutually exclusive groups? There was another sentence that I can't find right now that implied that women's right to decide is like a present they were given that can be taken back off them. The whole thing makes me almost incoherently angry.

A second article inside the paper mentioned that abortions would not be allowed in the case of severe birth defects under the new law, but that Spain doesn't grant mothers any financial support to look after the severely disabled children that they will be forced to give birth to.

[Melissa1977]

I was furious about the way this Spanish business was reported in our newspaper this morning. The little summary of the main article under the headline said "The conservative government wants to take away women's right to decide on abortions. They (women) want to decide for themselves." (Die konservative Regierung will Frauen die Entscheidung über einen Schwangerschaftsabbruch abnehmen. Diese wollen selbst bestimmen.) Quite apart from the issue of banning abortions, since when is it OK to speak about the government and womwn as if they are two mutually exclusive groups? There was another sentence that I can't find right now that implied that women's right to decide is like a present they were given that can be taken back off them. The whole thing makes me almost incoherently angry.

A second article inside the paper mentioned that abortions would not be allowed in the case of severe birth defects under the new law, but that Spain doesn't grant mothers any financial support to look after the severely disabled children that they will be forced to give birth to.

The Minister Gallardon introduced this law-project sorrounded by women. He was so sarcastic that he even said it was a law for protecting women rights. I almost puked!

And yes, conservative goverment has cut the financial support for disabled people. So now, not only they want disabled babies to be born, but also they are condemning these babies to live in poverty.

But in Spain everybody says that this law will never succeed. Maybe goverment will just reduce the abortion rights (now it's absolutely free before 22 weeks). And next left-wing government will make abortion free again.