School Bus Driver fired for "praying"

[salex]

From Huffington Post

School bus driver George Nathaniel III was fired last week for inviting the children on his routes to pray with him each morning, despite being repeatedly asked by his company to stop, reports CBS Local.

He told media that “To fire a bus driver for praying for the safety of the children†is not right, according to the Star Tribune. He prayed on the bus as he is a pastor at Elite Church of the First Born and Grace Missionary Baptist Church in Minneapolis.

But to me, when I read it, it sounded like he was basically holding a church service for the kids each morning.

He explained the specific nature of the bus prayers and insisted that he was not coercing students into religious observance. “We start out with a song,†he said. “Then each person will pray if they want to pray. If they don’t want to pray, they don’t have to pray. Then I will pray and ask them if they want to join me in prayer. Just give them something constructive and positive to go to school with.â€

Oh, and religious tracts/materials. And when he didn't quit doing this after warnings, he was fired. To which he replied

Nathaniel sought to emphasize his right to freedom of religion, stating, "They are trying to take away every right the Christian has to express our Christian belief in this supposed to have been Christian nation."

I can see why parents would not be happy to have their kids recruited daily for the Elite Church of the First Born.... and, like the Walmart oil anointer, this guy immediately cries for his "rights". The walmart guy tried to get the "Christian ACLU aka "ACLJ" to come to his aid and they declined, and I'm betting they won't step in this mess either, because there is nothing to defend... he was way out of line.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/07/praying-bus-driver-fired_n_4234315.html

[DomWackTroll]

Why can't Christian parents see that this is EXACTLY why religion needs to be kept out of the public schools? Let's say we give them their "religious freedom." Well, which religion? Christianity? Okay, but what kind of Christianity? Baptist? Okay, but what kind of Baptist? And how much of it? And where and when and at what time? And who should be allowed to teach it and who should not?

Even if every child in a particular school came from a "Christian" family, the disagreements would never end. A school is supposed to teach children, not raise them. Practice your religion at home and in your church.

[linnea27]

Nathaniel sought to emphasize his right to freedom of religion, stating, "They are trying to take away every right the Christian has to express our Christian belief in this supposed to have been Christian nation."

So I am sure he would be 100% behind a muslim bus driver who asked kids to pray along with him.

[Alice_Fraggle]

From Huffington Post

But to me, when I read it, it sounded like he was basically holding a church service for the kids each morning.

Oh, and religious tracts/materials. And when he didn't quit doing this after warnings, he was fired. To which he replied

Since when has the US been a Christian nation? I don't remember the pilgrims leaving England to start a Christian country - I thought they left so they could practice whatever religion they like. :angry-banghead:

Edited for quote bork.

[louisa05]

Since when has the US been a Christian nation? I don't remember the pilgrims leaving England to start a Christian country - I thought they left so they could practice whatever religion they like. :angry-banghead:

Edited for quote bork.

That is actually a bit of myth. The pilgrims and puritans both came here to freely practice their religion but were by no means in favor of religious freedom for any other religion. However, viewing the founding of the country only through the lens of those two groups is a huge distortion as multiple colonies were founded with a variety of purposes. If we only talk about the pilgrims and puritans, we are only talking about two small colonies--Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay. That narrow focus disregards the majority of the colonies that became the original states. Virginia was founded for commercial reasons; Georgia as a penal colony; Rhode Island truly for religious freedom and the list goes on.

[docmom]

So I am sure he would be 100% behind a muslim bus driver who asked kids to pray along with him.

We need a couple of Wiccan bus drivers to cast some circles with kids on a school bus and see how these freedom of religion champions respond. Any FJ Wiccan bus drivers out there?

[Conuly]

Since when has the US been a Christian nation? I don't remember the pilgrims leaving England to start a Christian country - I thought they left so they could practice whatever religion they like.

LOL, no, they didn't even extend their tolerance much towards other Christians. But, of course, as stated there were thirteen colonies prior to the revolution.

[thoughtful]

These people who interpret "religious freedom" as "I get to shove my particular brand of Christianity down everyone's throat" never cease to astound me in their complete inability to be logical.

If, like many school districts, this town has staggered school opening times, and bus drivers going around again to pick up every age level, he had passengers of every school age in the bus every day. I hope the middle and high school kids just rolled their eyes and went back to their cell phones and chats, but it kills me that he was probably doing this with easily-led primary grade kids.

[FloraKitty35]

From Huffington Post

But to me, when I read it, it sounded like he was basically holding a church service for the kids each morning.

Oh, and religious tracts/materials. And when he didn't quit doing this after warnings, he was fired. To which he replied

I can see why parents would not be happy to have their kids recruited daily for the Elite Church of the First Born.... and, like the Walmart oil anointer, this guy immediately cries for his "rights". The walmart guy tried to get the "Christian ACLU aka "ACLJ" to come to his aid and they declined, and I'm betting they won't step in this mess either, because there is nothing to defend... he was way out of line.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/07/praying-bus-driver-fired_n_4234315.html

If I were one the parents I would raise hell over him doing this. Keep your prayers to yourself.

[louisa05]

Why can't Christian parents see that this is EXACTLY why religion needs to be kept out of the public schools? Let's say we give them their "religious freedom." Well, which religion? Christianity? Okay, but what kind of Christianity? Baptist? Okay, but what kind of Baptist? And how much of it? And where and when and at what time? And who should be allowed to teach it and who should not?

Even if every child in a particular school came from a "Christian" family, the disagreements would never end. A school is supposed to teach children, not raise them. Practice your religion at home and in your church.

Oh, can I tell you stories about that. I taught for six years in an "interdenominational" Christian school. Families' religious affiliation ranged from conservative Lutherans (Missouri Synod) to a small church that called themselves "Puritans". In between were all stripes of evangelicals and neo-pentecostals/charismatics.

Among the things no one could agree on were which translation of the Bible to use in the required "Bible" classes, what songs to sing at chapel, whether on not kids should be allowed to raise/wave hands while singing in chapel, if drums were okay, if female teachers should be allowed to wear skirts without hose or tights or if we should be allowed to wear pants, what nail polish colors were biblical, how to pray, who should lead prayers, if female admins and teachers should be allowed to discipline male high school students or if a male staff member always had to be called in (seriously), if students should be allowed to come with dates to the homecoming and not-prom banquets (no dancing)...

I could keep going for the rest of time. And I didn't even mention the ugly theological debates over Calvinism, speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, liturgy (some wanted to not have any order for the chapel service because having any kind of order of worship was liturgy and stifled the Holy Spirit--apparently we were supposed to go in the gym and sit around waiting for the spirit to move someone to do something) and many other things.

When I taught the First Amendment in American Government courses in a Catholic school later, I always asked my students in favor of school prayer whose prayers would we use. They usually decided that the Our Father (Lord's Prayer) would be a good compromise (and were assuming everyone would be Christian), I would then explain the various translations/versions of that and ask which one would be used. They would end up totally flummoxed. Then I would add that I knew lots of protestants who object to all written prayers, what about them? By the end of the discussion, they usually concluded (without my even bringing up non-Christians) that perhaps school prayer just won't work after all.

[salex]

Oh, can I tell you stories about that. I taught for six years in an "interdenominational" Christian school. Families' religious affiliation ranged from conservative Lutherans (Missouri Synod) to a small church that called themselves "Puritans". In between were all stripes of evangelicals and neo-pentecostals/charismatics.

Among the things no one could agree on were which translation of the Bible to use in the required "Bible" classes, what songs to sing at chapel, whether on not kids should be allowed to raise/wave hands while singing in chapel, if drums were okay, if female teachers should be allowed to wear skirts without hose or tights or if we should be allowed to wear pants, what nail polish colors were biblical, how to pray, who should lead prayers, if female admins and teachers should be allowed to discipline male high school students or if a male staff member always had to be called in (seriously), if students should be allowed to come with dates to the homecoming and not-prom banquets (no dancing)...

I could keep going for the rest of time. And I didn't even mention the ugly theological debates over Calvinism, speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, liturgy (some wanted to not have any order for the chapel service because having any kind of order of worship was liturgy and stifled the Holy Spirit--apparently we were supposed to go in the gym and sit around waiting for the spirit to move someone to do something) and many other things.

When I taught the First Amendment in American Government courses in a Catholic school later, I always asked my students in favor of school prayer whose prayers would we use. They usually decided that the Our Father (Lord's Prayer) would be a good compromise (and were assuming everyone would be Christian), I would then explain the various translations/versions of that and ask which one would be used. They would end up totally flummoxed. Then I would add that I knew lots of protestants who object to all written prayers, what about them? By the end of the discussion, they usually concluded (without my even bringing up non-Christians) that perhaps school prayer just won't work after all.

This is why I've always believed that "wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in his name" there will soon be a schizm and at least 2 possibly 3 churches formed.

[GeoBQn]

If he wants to pray for the safety of the school children, he can do it silently by himself, or as part of the Sunday service at his church. Also, I find it is a bad sign when a church has that long of a name. He keeps saying that he is "not coercing" the students, but then as part of his prayer service he repeatedly asks students if they want to pray, which sounds like he's putting pressure on them.

This is why I've always believed that "wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in his name" there will soon be a schizm and at least 2 possibly 3 churches formed.

That reminds me of a joke. "If two Jews are stranded on a deserted island, how many synagogues do they build? Three--one for the first Jew, a 2nd for the 2nd Jew, and a 3rd that neither of them would ever set foot in."

[louisa05]

If he wants to pray for the safety of the school children, he can do it silently by himself, or as part of the Sunday service at his church. Also, I find it is a bad sign when a church has that long of a name. He keeps saying that he is "not coercing" the students, but then as part of his prayer service he repeatedly asks students if they want to pray, which sounds like he's putting pressure on them.

That reminds me of a joke. "If two Jews are stranded on a deserted island, how many synagogues do they build? Three--one for the first Jew, a 2nd for the 2nd Jew, and a 3rd that neither of them would ever set foot in."

Kids don't even have to be coerced. Up to around the end of middle school, the majority want to please the adults who have authority over them and are very impressionable. The reason that the courts have often allowed voluntary public prayers in settings with adults but not in schools is partly due to the fact that children are very pliable and impressionable; plus they are essentially required to be in school.

[EmmieJ]

... A school is supposed to teach children, not raise them. Practice your religion at home and in your church.

This, so very much.

Your freedom to practice whatever religion you like does not extend to your forcing your religion onto my kid as he is basically trapped aboard the bus you are driving, while your paycheck comes from taxpayer dollars.

If the bus driver cannot control himself, he should not have taken the job in the first place. What if the clerk at my grocery story began to pray as she was ringing up my groceries, then asked me if I wanted to offer up a prayer as well? What if I began to pray but before I was done sharing my particular prayer out loud, she finished ringing me up? Should the entire line wait patiently for us to finish our religious moment together?

What if I called up the DMV to schedule an appointment to renew my license, and the clerk there said she'd like to start the call off by sharing her religious beliefs with me? Imagine how much longer the delays would be to get calls answered and appointments made!

When you at home or at church, have at it. When you are in the middle of your job duties, keep it to yourself.

[Dysfundamental]

I want to go to his church and drive a bus in there during his sermon, just to see how he likes it!

[FloraKitty35]

That is actually a bit of myth. The pilgrims and puritans both came here to freely practice their religion but were by no means in favor of religious freedom for any other religion. However, viewing the founding of the country only through the lens of those two groups is a huge distortion as multiple colonies were founded with a variety of purposes. If we only talk about the pilgrims and puritans, we are only talking about two small colonies--Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay. That narrow focus disregards the majority of the colonies that became the original states. Virginia was founded for commercial reasons; Georgia as a penal colony; Rhode Island truly for religious freedom and the list goes on.

Maryland was founded as a refuge for English Catholics with freedom of religion for all christian sects and Delaware was founded by the Swedes (Fort Christina, present day Wilmington) and the Dutch (New Amstel & Zwaanendael, present day New Castle & Lewes, respectively) as commercial ventures, which were later taken over by the English.

[fullmetalheart]

Okay, so, I'm in the area. I just looked up those churches and what the hell? There is no "Elite Church of the First Born" that I can find and I can't find any results for a " Grace Missionary Baptist Church" in Minneapolis either. The only hits I'm finding are about this news story. Da fuq? Why can't I find anything about these churches?

Here's a couple local links that give some more information:

http://www.startribune.com/local/south/ ... y#continue

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/11/0 ... assengers/

This is the first I've heard of this and I'm kind of surprised it hasn't shown up in my feed, being a local and a Christian. I don't think he should have been praying on the bus with the children, especially being that it's a diverse district with children of many religions, Muslim, Christian, et al. From what I'm reading, it looks like how I would (as a ministry leader) lead a children's service or a children's part of a message: singing, a prayer, maybe a short message. And that is not okay on a bus. That is not okay without the parent's consent. That is not okay.

[lilwriter85]

If he wants to pray for the safety of the school children, he can do it silently by himself, or as part of the Sunday service at his church. Also, I find it is a bad sign when a church has that long of a name. He keeps saying that he is "not coercing" the students, but then as part of his prayer service he repeatedly asks students if they want to pray, which sounds like he's putting pressure on them.

That reminds me of a joke. "If two Jews are stranded on a deserted island, how many synagogues do they build? Three--one for the first Jew, a 2nd for the 2nd Jew, and a 3rd that neither of them would ever set foot in."

I agree with this. When I was in middle school, there was a day that I saw a female bus driver praying in her bus. The reason I saw her was because my science class was planting trees near one of entrances. Some of buses arrived 10 to 20 minutes before the school day ended. I saw her reading from a Bible and then she was in a praying form for a few minutes. I knew few kids who rode that bus and I don't think they ever said anything about their praying with them. If she only ever prayed silently before kids were around, I give her credit for doing that.

[Cran]

"Mr. Busdriver, my mum thanks you for being so caring and sharing your faith with us. She'd like to do the same for you and gave me this to give to you!" *hands out a satanic bible*

[sandberry]

If a bus driver had to pray for the safety of children before he set off every morning, I'd wonder about his driving skill tbh

[Conuly]

That reminds me of a joke. "If two Jews are stranded on a deserted island, how many synagogues do they build? Three--one for the first Jew, a 2nd for the 2nd Jew, and a 3rd that neither of them would ever set foot in."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/m ... eclanwalsh

[Alice_Fraggle]

That is actually a bit of myth. The pilgrims and puritans both came here to freely practice their religion but were by no means in favor of religious freedom for any other religion. However, viewing the founding of the country only through the lens of those two groups is a huge distortion as multiple colonies were founded with a variety of purposes. If we only talk about the pilgrims and puritans, we are only talking about two small colonies--Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay. That narrow focus disregards the majority of the colonies that became the original states. Virginia was founded for commercial reasons; Georgia as a penal colony; Rhode Island truly for religious freedom and the list goes on.

:embarrassed: Thank you for clearing that up for me. Still doesn't make us a "Christian country" though. :wink-penguin:

[Alice_Fraggle]

Oh, can I tell you stories about that. I taught for six years in an "interdenominational" Christian school. Families' religious affiliation ranged from conservative Lutherans (Missouri Synod) to a small church that called themselves "Puritans". In between were all stripes of evangelicals and neo-pentecostals/charismatics.

Among the things no one could agree on were which translation of the Bible to use in the required "Bible" classes, what songs to sing at chapel, whether on not kids should be allowed to raise/wave hands while singing in chapel, if drums were okay, if female teachers should be allowed to wear skirts without hose or tights or if we should be allowed to wear pants, what nail polish colors were biblical, how to pray, who should lead prayers, if female admins and teachers should be allowed to discipline male high school students or if a male staff member always had to be called in (seriously), if students should be allowed to come with dates to the homecoming and not-prom banquets (no dancing)...

I could keep going for the rest of time. And I didn't even mention the ugly theological debates over Calvinism, speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, liturgy (some wanted to not have any order for the chapel service because having any kind of order of worship was liturgy and stifled the Holy Spirit--apparently we were supposed to go in the gym and sit around waiting for the spirit to move someone to do something) and many other things.

When I taught the First Amendment in American Government courses in a Catholic school later, I always asked my students in favor of school prayer whose prayers would we use. They usually decided that the Our Father (Lord's Prayer) would be a good compromise (and were assuming everyone would be Christian), I would then explain the various translations/versions of that and ask which one would be used. They would end up totally flummoxed. Then I would add that I knew lots of protestants who object to all written prayers, what about them? By the end of the discussion, they usually concluded (without my even bringing up non-Christians) that perhaps school prayer just won't work after all.

I was just struck by the bolded. Did you ever get an answer? I'm genuinely curious.

And I'm also sincerely thankful to y'all that pointed out that I'm wrong about my history! I guess it's been a LONG time since I've read up on that particular part of history - time to read up on it again!

[louisa05]

I was just struck by the bolded. Did you ever get an answer? I'm genuinely curious.

And I'm also sincerely thankful to y'all that pointed out that I'm wrong about my history! I guess it's been a LONG time since I've read up on that particular part of history - time to read up on it again!

I once sat through a staff meeting that lasted nearly three hours about "biblical" nail polish colors. One side (more hard core fundy, but not to the degree of KJV only or no pants on women) said only pastel pinks and peaches while the other side (mostly the Charismatic faction) said all manner of reds, pinks and oranges were okay. All agreed that blues and greens were probably not biblical and no one could decide about metallic or glitter. Bible verses were thrown around, but I have blocked out what they were.

I had, safely covered by shoes, blue toe nails at that meeting.

[smittykins]

I once sat through a staff meeting that lasted nearly three hours about "biblical" nail polish colors. One side (more hard core fundy, but not to the degree of KJV only or no pants on women) said only pastel pinks and peaches while the other side (mostly the Charismatic faction) said all manner of reds, pinks and oranges were okay. All agreed that blues and greens were probably not biblical and no one could decide about metallic or glitter. Bible verses were thrown around, but I have blocked out what they were.

I had, safely covered by shoes, blue toe nails at that meeting.

I remember a radio interview with the Pointer Sisters(both parents ministers of the Church of God, IIRC), who said they were only allowed clear nail polish.(And, among a long list of things they weren't allowed, were dice, even in a board game. They could only have games with spinners.)