Fundie Lite Wife Having Baby with Husband with Severe TBI

[nausicaa]

If I wasn't typing on a iPad I would swear that all of these phenomenally dismissive and insulting views of the disabled ( or, to be more specific) a severely cognitively impaired adult were straight out of the 1800s. I find it extremely disturbing.

Just curious--what views in particular do you find dismissive or insulting? I don't mean that statement in a snarky way. I'm interested because for the most part I agree with what others have been posting, but then again I don't have any personal experience with TBIs, or even dementia, so I could be overlooking elements that others with more experience see.

[Clementine]

Amen and amen.

I've been wondering if part of this isn't Kathleen's immaturity. A mature woman who respects her spouse doesn't exploit him the way that her blog exploits Cale. Just like a mature woman is honest with herself about the implications of bringing a child into the world.

You summed it up in one word: exploiting. I am glad that I'm not the only one who thinks that she should respect her husband's privacy and be more careful and sensitive when she writes about him. That opinion feels rather dated today when "everybody" posts everything online on blogs, FB, Twitter and Instagram.

I think that adults can do what they want when they write about themselves but I feel strongly about exploiting others: children, minors or adults who has not given their consent first, and understands that what is posted online never disappears.

[Mama Mia]

Just curious--what views in particular do you find dismissive or insulting? I don't mean that statement in a snarky way. I'm interested because for the most part I agree with what others have been posting, but then again I don't have any personal experience with TBIs, or even dementia, so I could be overlooking elements that others with more experience see.

The idea that someone can't consent to sex because they limited cognitive functioning is very disturbing to me. It minimizes the person and tells them that their needs or desires aren't as important as other people's.

I think they are both making the best of what is a very traumatic and life-altering situation, physical intimacy can be a big part of maintaining a bond. I also object to the assumption that she couldn't possibly find him sexually desirable or satisfying, when no one has any idea of the quAlity of their sex life, he might be very gifted sexually , who knows? Diminished capacity in one area does not equal diminished capacity in all areas.

And I really find it very strange that sex is seen as a potentially negative and harmful activity unless proven otherwise. I would think that the default position would be that sex between two already committed partners is a good thing, in less proven to be harmful. I think all this focus on consent, when there is absolutely no reason to think he is a reluctant participant, gives the message that sex is harmful.

I do have some limited experience working with a couple of families where one spouse suffered a TBI. Managing outbursts and impulse control with their children was a very big issue. But with safety plans, respite care, family counseling and medication the persons with TBI did very well.

[ViolaSebastian]

Sex is one thing--parenthood is an entirely different can of worms.

[dianapavelovna]

I know some people have stated that they believe Cale was raped, but most posters on this thread have expressed the idea that cognitively disabled people can consent to sex, but that the associated issues of consent and possible exploitation can be thorny. Most people think that Kathleen and Cale's choice to have a child at this point was a poor one. But overall I think the thread has been fairly balanced. No one is saying that Cale should be institutionalized or that he should be sterilized or otherwise prevented from having a child, and those are the type of views I'd associate with the 19th century. In fact, I think the discussion has brought up a lot of very contemporary issues - the fact that our idea of what consent is and looks like is more nuanced and the implications of surviving and living for years after a catastrophic injury like Cale's, when not long ago at all, most such people would've died shortly.

I think the poster who made the point earlier in the thread about using age equivalence (he functions like a three-year-old) had a good point. It is problematic because it provokes a strong emotional reaction and can be misleading. Particularly because Cale is only cognitively disabled as the result of a relatively recent traumatic injury. He was previously (AFAIK) an average adult. When you equate him with a three-year-old, of course it sounds horrifying that he had sex with his wife. But I think it's more complicated than that.

edited for clarity

[twinmama]

Wait until that baby is crying all night with an ear infection. That's enough for a stable person to go haywire.

So much this. Something about those baby cries that are the exact right pitch to drive a completely neurotypical (? I don't want to say normal...) person completely insane if they're sustained long enough. It'll be hard for Kathleen to deal with baby stress compounded by having to worry about Cale's reaction to all of it. I have no TBIs or anything and a few times my twins just screeched so much I had to leave the room for a few minutes to cry and calm down before calming them down. And that was just normal baby stuff, not colic or anything like that!

[twinmama]

I find it absolutely appalling that so many posters on a board that presumably prides itself on promoting equality have such an incredibly insulting and disrespectful view of the disabled.

I also find it both disgusting and vastly amusing that a group of people who constantly snark on fundamentalists repressive view of sexuality, seem to assume that sex is bad and something a disabled person must be protected from! I can't even fathom why the default assumption would be rape for someone who is expressing an active interest in sex with their spouse or partner.

I don't even know what emoticon fits this kind of hypocrisy

Disabled or not, I think the only thing anyone is questioning is the ability to consent. Having never dealt with a person with a disability, I have no idea how that issue is confronted in a relationship.

[Marianne]

The idea that someone can't consent to sex because they limited cognitive functioning is very disturbing to me. It minimizes the person and tells them that their needs or desires aren't as important as other people's.

I think they are both making the best of what is a very traumatic and life-altering situation, physical intimacy can be a big part of maintaining a bond. I also object to the assumption that she couldn't possibly find him sexually desirable or satisfying, when no one has any idea of the quAlity of their sex life, he might be very gifted sexually , who knows? Diminished capacity in one area does not equal diminished capacity in all areas.

And I really find it very strange that sex is seen as a potentially negative and harmful activity unless proven otherwise. I would think that the default position would be that sex between two already committed partners is a good thing, in less proven to be harmful. I think all this focus on consent, when there is absolutely no reason to think he is a reluctant participant, gives the message that sex is harmful.

I do have some limited experience working with a couple of families where one spouse suffered a TBI. Managing outbursts and impulse control with their children was a very big issue. But with safety plans, respite care, family counseling and medication the persons with TBI did very well.

She herself describe him as a children. She see him as a children. Yes, I think there's something wrong when you - seriously, not for a joke - describe your sexual partnership and futur dad as a children.

I don't want to speak about that a lot, but I have been during some weeks in a very bad psychiatric state, and my girlfriend always refused sex with me, because she wasn't sure I can't consent. And I could not consent, even if I don't have conscience of this.

[keen23]

If I wasn't typing on a iPad I would swear that all of these phenomenally dismissive and insulting views of the disabled ( or, to be more specific) a severely cognitively impaired adult were straight out of the 1800s. I find it extremely disturbing.

As someone else posted up-thread, there is also the question of balance of power. If the situation were reversed, and it was the wife with the TBI, would your feelings be different? I'm not saying that Cale can not consent to sex. I totally believe he can. But, I don't think he is fully aware of what the consequences of sex might be. After all, Kathleen consistently holds him up as child-like in her blog. Now, she's had a baby with a child-man. What if the situation were where a cognitively impaired woman was pregnant, by her spouse? What if she was the one who was not always aware of what childbirth entailed- as Cale clearly does not in Kathleen's post on 4/19 shows? I do think that Kathleen took advantage of Cale in some ways to have a baby. SHE wants the baby, I honestly don't believe (through Kathleen's limited postings as my only source, admittedly) that Cale has the emotional or mental ability to comprehend exactly what fatherhood consists of. And if it turns out that Kathleen has just used Cale as a sperm donor, as a way to get a piece of her husband back, fine. But, in no way are Kathleen's actions altruistic. This baby fulfills Kathleen's Happy Family Fantasy. Who really knows wtf Cale really thinks about it.

[theologygeek]

Do you not see anything wrong with this? Kathleen threw water at Cale, and this is what happened. How does he have the mental capacity to consent to sex and fatherhood, when he didn't even understand what had just happened to him? "After several minutes, or at least what felt like several minutes passed, I looked to my left at Cale. He was still sitting in the same position as before on the bed, clothes soaked, clueless of what had just happened. He didn't know why he was all wet and he didn't know we had just gotten upset with each other. He also had no idea what to do with himself."

[Mama Mia]

As someone else posted up-thread, there is also the question of balance of power. If the situation were reversed, and it was the wife with the TBI, would your feelings be different? I'm not saying that Cale can not consent to sex. I totally believe he can. But, I don't think he is fully aware of what the consequences of sex might be. After all, Kathleen consistently holds him up as child-like in her blog. Now, she's had a baby with a child-man. What if the situation were where a cognitively impaired woman was pregnant, by her spouse? What if she was the one who was not always aware of what childbirth entailed- as Cale clearly does not in Kathleen's post on 4/19 shows? I do think that Kathleen took advantage of Cale in some ways to have a baby. SHE wants the baby, I honestly don't believe (through Kathleen's limited postings as my only source, admittedly) that Cale has the emotional or mental ability to comprehend exactly what fatherhood consists of. And if it turns out that Kathleen has just used Cale as a sperm donor, as a way to get a piece of her husband back, fine. But, in no way are Kathleen's actions altruistic. This baby fulfills Kathleen's Happy Family Fantasy. Who really knows wtf Cale really thinks about it.

My feelings would not be any different if it was the woman who had a traumatic brain injury.

I do think consent to parenthood is going to be more complicated if it is the woman with the impairment, simply because she is the one who had to take on the physical risks of pregnancy and childbirth. So I would hope that a couple in that situation would secure the services of a professional to help them work through that. I don't think it's an automatic no, but it is more complicated.

Obviously Cale won't be able to fulfill the father role in the way we typically think of it, but there are millions of single parents, and realistically Kathleen will be a single parent as far as responsibilities and caregiving go. She'll also have the responsibility of caring for her husband. As long as she has a lot of help and resources available to the family I don't see why that's a bad thing. More stressful than if her husband hadn't had a TBI? Of course. He can be a dad without taking on all the responsibilities normally associated with fatherhood. The impulse control is an issue, but there are many people with impulse control disorders who are helped through skill building and medication.

As far as her having the baby just because she wanted to have a child....so what?when it boils down to it, the vast majority of children are born simply because the parent(s) want to have a child ( or their birth control failed ) . Why el do people have kids?

As far as the consent to sex itself, apparently they both enjoy it, So how on earth is it anyone else's business?

[MrsFoxx]

As someone else posted up-thread, there is also the question of balance of power. If the situation were reversed, and it was the wife with the TBI, would your feelings be different? I'm not saying that Cale can not consent to sex. I totally believe he can. But, I don't think he is fully aware of what the consequences of sex might be. After all, Kathleen consistently holds him up as child-like in her blog. Now, she's had a baby with a child-man. What if the situation were where a cognitively impaired woman was pregnant, by her spouse? What if she was the one who was not always aware of what childbirth entailed- as Cale clearly does not in Kathleen's post on 4/19 shows? I do think that Kathleen took advantage of Cale in some ways to have a baby. SHE wants the baby, I honestly don't believe (through Kathleen's limited postings as my only source, admittedly) that Cale has the emotional or mental ability to comprehend exactly what fatherhood consists of. And if it turns out that Kathleen has just used Cale as a sperm donor, as a way to get a piece of her husband back, fine. But, in no way are Kathleen's actions altruistic. This baby fulfills Kathleen's Happy Family Fantasy. Who really knows wtf Cale really thinks about it.

This. If a woman got pregnant by a 12 or 13 year old boy, that would be statutory rape, right? If someone describes their TBI husband as a child and gets pregnant by him...

Granted, perhaps we are basing this assessment purely on what Kathleen had chosen to share publicly, which is a sign of her lack of awareness, and may not be the full picture.

[nelliebelle1197]

My feelings would not be any different if it was the woman who had a traumatic brain injury.

I do think consent to parenthood is going to be more complicated if it is the woman with the impairment, simply because she is the one who had to take on the physical risks of pregnancy and childbirth. So I would hope that a couple in that situation would secure the services of a professional to help them work through that. I don't think it's an automatic no, but it is more complicated.

Obviously Cale won't be able to fulfill the father role in the way we typically think of it, but there are millions of single parents, and realistically Kathleen will be a single parent as far as responsibilities and caregiving go. She'll also have the responsibility of caring for her husband. As long as she has a lot of help and resources available to the family I don't see why that's a bad thing. More stressful than if her husband hadn't had a TBI? Of course. He can be a dad without taking on all the responsibilities normally associated with fatherhood. The impulse control is an issue, but there are many people with impulse control disorders who are helped through skill building and medication.

As far as her having the baby just because she wanted to have a child....so what?when it boils down to it, the vast majority of children are born simply because the parent(s) want to have a child ( or their birth control failed ) . Why el do people have kids?

As far as the consent to sex itself, apparently they both enjoy it, So how on earth is it anyone else's business?

How would you feel about consent if Kathleen was Cale's pastor or nurse?

[Ave Maria]

How would you feel about consent if Kathleen was Cale's pastor or nurse?

By that definition, most men are sleeping with/next to their maids/cooks/nannies. :D

[nelliebelle1197]

By that definition, most men are sleeping with/next to their maids/cooks/nannies. :D

Sure as hell true around here, despite what my husband thinks. And you forgot personal shopper.

But I think the marriage/gender issue makes this murky for some. I think if Cale was Callenda and Kathleen was Kaleb, Callenda's nurse or boss - someone with obvious power, it would be different in many eyes.

[lipstickgoalie]

How would you feel about consent if Kathleen was Cale's pastor or nurse?

Along those lines would you feel the same if it were an outside individual acting in the same capacity as Kathleen? Kathleen is his health care proxy and holds his power of attorney. Simply put she makes most, if not all, of his decisions for him because he is not competent to act on his own behalf. If it were a random court appointed person put in charge of Cale's medical, financial, and legal affairs who then decided to have a child with Cale would that be problematic? I am not trying to be confrontational here, I am genuinely interested in where, if one exists, the line is for you.

I personally feel, as I have stated before, that it is entirely possible that Cale can consent to sex but I find Kathleen's decision to have a baby problematic for a number of reasons. I do feel that there is a power imbalance. People, including myself, had a problem with Doug's relationship with L/Hero because of the imbalance of power. I don't really see how this is any different. In fact in this circumstance I think the power is even more imbalanced; Kathleen literally tells him to shower, brush his teeth, that it is medicine time- she, for good reason controls every aspect of his life. Again, I want to reiterate, I am not being adversarial, I am genuinely curious.

[OkToBeTakei]

If I wasn't typing on a iPad I would swear that all of these phenomenally dismissive and insulting views of the disabled ( or, to be more specific) a severely cognitively impaired adult were straight out of the 1800s. I find it extremely disturbing.

I'm not sure I see what you are seeing.

Others have pointed out the discussion is specific to an acquired cognitive impairment, not a blanket statement on disability. I read most of the views in that vein in fact even more specifically to that of this couple in particular. I may not agree with all sentiments expressed but I certainly do not see what you appear to.

I think all of these situations are unique. I also think everybody has breaking points regarding consent when discussing sexual relations. Example being and I am not sure if this exists in all countries but 'Capacity.' When an individual is deemed to lack capacity then another is called to do that for them.

Recently the issue of dementia and sexual relations came up at a meeting I was at. I have very strong feelings regarding this (not sex particularly.) In looking at a persons rights and desires sometimes we get too caught up in the recent 'best practice' the 'right of the individual' the 'recent studies.'

I always tell students I have, look at the persons history, speak to their family, don't get caught up with the 'guidelines.'

If I am sitting in a nursing home in 40 years swearing my head off and hitting people I do not want that. I don't want my 'rights' to expression when and if I suffer from dementia or an acquired injury say, to override the person I was. I would be quite happy in that case to be given medication (no, not some liquid cosh, just enough to allow me my dignity AND social interaction.) I do NOT want to be allowed to express my sexuality when it is not reflective of what I would or would not have done prior to my disability.

This I think is the route of the issue for this couple. Not that the chap does not have a right to express his sexual desires, not that he is unable or able to parent a child. The issue is does he have the capacity to decide if it is in his own best interests.

Considering I doubt he has the capacity to decide wether he has a yearly influenza injection (and I mean this as a basic example of capacity regarding reasoning) then it possibly shows the complexity of the issues being discussed here.

[theologygeek]

As far as her having the baby just because she wanted to have a child....so what?when it boils down to it, the vast majority of children are born simply because the parent(s) want to have a child ( or their birth control failed ) . Why el do people have kids?

As far as the consent to sex itself, apparently they both enjoy it, So how on earth is it anyone else's business?

Do you have a problem with this 11 year old Pakistani girl who is going to marry a 45 year old? She seems happy as a clam. She says it's fun to get married. Her fiance has her consent. http://www.irinnews.org/report/33985/pa ... ural-sindh If her husband gets her pregnant, so what? He simply wants a baby. If she enjoys the sex, then it's all good, right?

[DGayle]

I'm not sure the ethics are so clear cut. It's not equivalent to statutory rape because we would be assigning him a lifetime of celibacy, despite indications that he does want sex.

I think it's reasonable that he could legally and ethically consent to sex, especially since there is a prior sexual relationship and marriage. I'm not as sure he could consent to parenthood, but I admit I don't follow the blog.

This article, despite being about elderly people with dementia, addresses similar issues to what we've been discussing.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_ ... homes.html

There's an imbalance when you have someone with an adult ability to reason, and someone who is mentally a child. Two 14-year-olds having sex isn't a crime. Someone who is 30 having sex with a 14-year-old IS. Children can't consent to sex with adults. They aren't on the same level. One has a bit of authority over the other.

Cale is mentally a child. If Cale was a woman with the mental abilities of a very young child, do you think it would be right for a neurotypical adult man to have sex with her if he knew how to get her aroused? How would you feel if you knew that sometimes dubious consent is obtained because the disabled adult feels implicit trust for someone, and so is consenting because they think they should?

[Ave Maria]

Sure as hell true around here, despite what my husband thinks. And you forgot personal shopper.

But I think the marriage/gender issue makes this murky for some. I think if Cale was Callenda and Kathleen was Kaleb, Callenda's nurse or boss - someone with obvious power, it would be different in many eyes.

Well, I could also make the joke about wives sleeping with the gardener, the handyman, the TV repairman (since my DH can't be the only one who has taken a TV apart and fixed it), etc.

My point is basically that we all do things for our spouses that could also be professional services (cleaning, cooking, childcare, gardening, whatever). But a wife who cleans isn't a maid -- it's okay to kiss one's wife, but not the maid.

A wife who gives care to her ill husband isn't the same as a nurse or court appointed person -- and her motives for giving that care are very different. To me, the fact that Caleb chose her for his wife before his injury shows that his intent while he was fully "with it," for lack of a better phrase, was to be with her forever. That's a bit different from a patient who is preyed upon by an unethical nurse.

[lilith]

My instinct says that Cale can't comprehend the complexities of fatherhood and probably hasn't consented to it in a meaningful way.

BUT

Cale and Kathleen have worked with many many medical professionals and patient's advocates. Some of these professionals have told Kathleen when she's needed to step back, and she's respected that. She has also been honest with them from day one that a big goal for her and Cale is to one day have a child. His physio has structured his therapy with the goal of safely holding their baby in mind. Kathleen has listened when professionals have advised against beginning a pregnancy, even as she desperately wanted a child.

I'm assuming and hoping that these professionals have spoken to both Cale and Kathleen about consent issues. I'm assuming that if sex wasn't appropriate then an advocate for Cale would have approached Kathleen about it. I'm assuming that the people caring for Cale feel that a baby would be safe in that home and wouldn't impact Cale negatively.

I don't see it myself. At all. But I have to give his medical team the benefit of the doubt.

[louisa05]

I just spent an hour, maybe two, reading her blog. Kind of got sucked in...

What really stood out to me is that Kathleen is very realistic. I can't help but compare her to Larissa and there is a world of difference. Kathleen does not attribute deep thoughts to Cale, does not pretend or convince herself that he is better than he is, and does not castigate herself in the least bit for being tired, frustrated, or feeling cheated out of the life she planned. She is realistic about his medical care, condition and prognosis and has listened to his doctors and therapists. There is not a whole lot of sugar coating going on with her.

My initial response to this was "hell, no, this woman shouldn't be having a baby". After reading her blog, I am still not certain it is a great idea, but I think that she is probably not entirely ignorant of what she is getting into. I am also inclined to agree with lilith that it seems quite likely that she did at some point discuss issues surrounding sex with the professionals. At one point, in the second year after his injury, she talks about them seeing a counselor to discuss issues with marriage and family. Issues surrounding his sexuality likely came up.

I did not read everything from the last two years, so did anyone else catch this info--is her mother living with them? It sounded as if she may be in the 2013/14 entries. If so, that is a point in her favor, she won't be handling him and an infant on her own.

[lipstickgoalie]

I just spent an hour, maybe two, reading her blog. Kind of got sucked in...

What really stood out to me is that Kathleen is very realistic. I can't help but compare her to Larissa and there is a world of difference. Kathleen does not attribute deep thoughts to Cale, does not pretend or convince herself that he is better than he is, and does not castigate herself in the least bit for being tired, frustrated, or feeling cheated out of the life she planned. She is realistic about his medical care, condition and prognosis and has listened to his doctors and therapists. There is not a whole lot of sugar coating going on with her.

My initial response to this was "hell, no, this woman shouldn't be having a baby". After reading her blog, I am still not certain it is a great idea, but I think that she is probably not entirely ignorant of what she is getting into. I am also inclined to agree with lilith that it seems quite likely that she did at some point discuss issues surrounding sex with the professionals. At one point, in the second year after his injury, she talks about them seeing a counselor to discuss issues with marriage and family. Issues surrounding his sexuality likely came up.

I did not read everything from the last two years, so did anyone else catch this info--is her mother living with them? It sounded as if she may be in the 2013/14 entries. If so, that is a point in her favor, she won't be handling him and an infant on her own.

I read sporadic entries and have gone back and read the whole thing chronologically. I am up to November 2011. As far as I can tell her mother is living with them and has been for some time.

[theologygeek]

I'm assuming and hoping that these professionals have spoken to both Cale and Kathleen about consent issues. I'm assuming that if sex wasn't appropriate then an advocate for Cale would have approached Kathleen about it. I'm assuming that the people caring for Cale feel that a baby would be safe in that home and wouldn't impact Cale negatively.

I don't see it myself. At all. But I have to give his medical team the benefit of the doubt.

I don't see it either. The baby has a father who has the mind of a three year old, and a mother who threw water in the face of a mentally challenged person. How could a professional not intervene?

[Mama Mia]

Do you have a problem with this 11 year old Pakistani girl who is going to marry a 45 year old? She seems happy as a clam. She says it's fun to get married. Her fiance has her consent. http://www.irinnews.org/report/33985/pa ... ural-sindh If her husband gets her pregnant, so what? He simply wants a baby. If she enjoys the sex, then it's all good, right?

That is an apples and oranges comparison.

For one thing the planned marriage is illegal, so just on that basis alone, within the girls own social norms, her sexual relationship with a 45 year led man should not be permitted ( although, of course, people break the law all the time. The marriage between Cale and Kathleen was entered into legally. And even if they weren't married there is nothing in the law where they live ( that I'm aware of ) that forbids sexual relations between adults. An I.Q. Test is not required or administered before a couple has sex for the first time....although that would make for an interesting themed nightclub.

A girl with an eleven year old body is more likely to suffer disabling injuries or die in childbirth than a fully grown young woman. Ethically, it is a significant enough risk that it should give her family and future husband second thoughts, even if the girl dies not fully comprehend the risks.

Most importantly, while a person with severe intellectual disabilities may function the same as a small child in many areas, they are NOT actually a small child! He is not going to one day decide that running away with his 5 th grade girlfriend was a really bad idea because it means he got trapped working at Burger King supporting that baby he had at 14. He isn't going to mature in the next few years and realize if he got rid of his wife he could party in the dorms at College. That isn't the life course he has. We encourage young teens to not make potentially life altering decisions because we know that what they look for in a partner, or want as a career, or how many children they have ( if any) will likely change a great deal as they mature.

While someone with a severe TBI may not change as drastically over time as an adolescent, they do have some factors that mean adult relationship are more appropriate for them than for young people.

For Cale and Kathleen they were already in a committed relationship, so it is highly unlikely that Kathleen is just pursuing a relationship in order to get access to any financial benefits. The access to benefits would be my major concern regarding a new relationship, particularly if there was a substantial court settlement. I don't think that means a new relationship, even witha pastor or nurse is completely out of the question, but if it was my relative I would want to have very concrete financial guidelines, and a third party monitoring and administrating the flow of money.

Also, an adult who has already been in a sexual relationship will quite likely want to have that be a component in their life. Preferably with a partner they already love. It seems ludicrous to tell a committed couple that if they want to get laid they need to go find someone more "appropriate" to fuck. There is no reason to think that sex isn't satisfying to them anymore. It also likely provides a huge stress relief.And as it is probably one of the only things that they can still wholeheartedly enjoy together as husband and wife it seems cruel and insulting to take that away from them.

And I also don't see why it would be any different if it was the woman who suffered the TBI. Last I heard women like sex too. The obvious complicating factor is that a man doesn't have to take the risks of pregnancy and delivery, do a decision to parent would hopefully be approached very carefully.

If you start saying that Cale shouldn't have children because he can't fully parent I think you open a whole ugly Pandora's box of who is qualified to have children and who gets to decide that.

If it was one of my kids in this situation, either a son or a daughter, I would really hope they could engage in as many normal. Activities as possible...and for most adults a sexual relationship is part of normal life.