Want your daughter to despise you? Do this!

[treehugger]

Apparently, in about 15 years, my daughter is going to hate me.

beautifullifeofjoy.blogspot.ca/2013/10/21-ways-to-raise-daughter-to-rebel-and.html

Among this lovely list of things to do if you would like your child to despise you, the author includes these gems:

Laugh at her disobedience and bad attitude when she is two or three, because she is just so cute.

Expect that she will rebel when she is a teen, because it is a natural part of growing up.

Let her develop relationships with friends that are closer than those of her family, because peer socialization is a vital need.

Let her wear what everyone else is wearing, even though it is immodest, because you don’t want her to feel left out or made fun of. It’s the heart that matters, anyway.

Let her have a private Facebook page, email account, and texting because it’s none of your business what she is saying or displaying to her friends.

Don’t ever read her diary, even when you have good cause to believe that she could be harming herself or may harm others, because that’s just plain awful.

First of all, this whole post just oozes with scorn for all those horrible parents who do any of the above things.

Secondly, I know fundies can't stand privacy - but, as a teenager, I would have been absolutely furious if my parents somehow thought they had the right to read all my emails, look at my facebook messages, and read my diary! For the record, I was a cutter as a teenager, and my mom reading my diary would not have helped me at all! Her sitting down and talking to me about how I was feeling, and then, taking me to a therapist helped. God, I feel so sorry for these fundie kids!

[guidedbybobafett]

I think the issue here is that these people don't really give a shit how their kids feel one way or the other. Sometimes misguided parents read their kids diaries, and that's forgivable. However, doing it just to do it, because you can't stand the idea of your child having private thoughts, is insane. I also think the idea that kids shouldn't have friends is crazy, and really just another aspect of control. I don't really think these parents believe that their daughter having a friend is going to be bad for her- it's just going to allow her an outlet that they can't meddle with, and they don't like giving up that dominance. People who seek out total control over the lives of others have pretty deep issues going on, and I think it's safe to say that anyone who feels like their children shouldn't have diaries or friends, or that they should literally LIVE WITH THEM until they have someone else to live with (read: be accountable to) has some other, intense problems going on.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Drives me crazy when someone takes a few points that actually have some merit, and turns it into something bizarre.

First off - many behavior issues come down to genetics, or just plain luck. We don't control outcomes nearly as much as we think we do.

Now, there is some merit to parents being authoritative (not authoritarian), signaling that they are clearly in charge and teaching that showing respect is required. It gives kids a sense of security to know that someone is in charge, and that parents will stick to rules that they believe are best for a child even if the child tantrums or complains. I do believe that some parents actually train their children to whine or throw tantrums by ignoring good behavior and rewarding bad behavior (I've seen families like this).

I've also made it clear to my kids that there are limits with electronic communication - it's a privilege, not a right, and we have a responsibility to ensure safety and a lack of bullying. Diaries, however, are different - kids deserve to have a place to express private thoughts.

[lemonhead]

This is an excellent example of splitting--the black and white, all or nothing kind of thinking so typical of fundies (and, not surprisingly, people with certain personality disorders).

For example: "Let her wear what everyone else is wearing, even though it is immodest, because you don’t want her to feel left out or made fun of. It’s the heart that matters, anyway."

A more nuanced, common sense version of this would be, "Let her wear styles that are in fashion, within reason." NOT, "Oh, if my daughter wears something fashionable then she is automatically a slut."

Or instead of, "Let her have a private Facebook page, email account, and texting because it’s none of your business what she is saying or displaying to her friends"

How about: "Let her have a Facebook page, email account, and texting, and until she is mature enough, occasionally monitor those accounts, because cyberbullying and cybersex are unfortunately common, and a younger teen may not be aware of or know how to handle those dangers."

And then your daughter may respect you and come to you when she needs help or advice, rather than despising you.

[treehugger]

lemonhead, I echo your sentiments.

So much on this list (except for the diary part - and in older teens, the social media part) could make sense in a less black-and-white sort of way. Obviously, children need some rules and boundaries, but there is a difference between practical and common-sense rules and legislating every single teeny tiny little thing. And as far as the diary goes, there is something to be said for mutual respect between parents and children. I don't look at my daughter and see a puppet that needs to be controlled - I see another person (tiny though she might be right now) who still deserves to be treated with respect.

[treehugger]

Also, this is once again a list of rules that says: "if you do this, you won't have to worry about this. But, if you do this, your kids are going to hate you". Instead of realizing that there is no set list of rules that is going to work for every single kid and that parents are going to have different parenting styles. If a parent does one of these things on the list, that does not make them a horrible parent. It's the mommy wars again - worded a bit differently.

[ThisOlGirl]

When my mom starting going through all my stuff whenever I wasn't home(and using the things she found to threaten & shame me)I just got better at hiding stuff from her. That, and I refused to open up to her. I figured if I couldn't keep the contents of my room private, I could at least keep the contents of my head private, and it pleased me to no end to know there wasn't a damn thing she could do about it. Probably not the healthiest way to go about things, but teenage me was more interested in a power struggle.

[FiddleDD]

My mom had a rule about diaries, she said if we didn't want her to read it we shouldn't make her worry. And the only time she ever read mine I knew exactly why. I don't blame her, it was the only time I stopped talking to her.

She also told us if we really wanted to keep something private, not to write it down. :lol:

[uber frau]

My parents did most of the things on that list (except the social media thing because it didn't exist then).

I made some massively stupid life choices as soon as I could get away from their control. I am still living with the consequences today. I accept the fact that I made the choices and that the consequences are mine to deal with but not a day goes by when I do not wish I had been able to learn by doing dumb things as a teen when it was safer to do so. There's a reason most of us learn to swim in the shallow end of the pool.

Fifteen years later I have an outwardly cordial relationship with my parents but it's actually very superficial.

[latraviata]

When my mom starting going through all my stuff whenever I wasn't home(and using the things she found to threaten & shame me)I just got better at hiding stuff from her. That, and I refused to open up to her. I figured if I couldn't keep the contents of my room private, I could at least keep the contents of my head private, and it pleased me to no end to know there wasn't a damn thing she could do about it. Probably not the healthiest way to go about things, but teenage me was more interested in a power struggle.

As you should, that is a (normal) teenage's job.

I never went through my sons' stuff, it is a matter of trust, respect for their privacy, a solid foundation that is laid through upbringing and open communciation.

[RosyDaisy]

I'm not a mother, but this is how my sister raised her girls:

1) Disobedient: time out, grounding, or taking away of toys or privileges.

2) Rebellion: "my house, my rules, and you will live by them, and no you aren't running away" followed by grounding.

3) Friends: as long as they weren't trouble makers

4) Dress: as long their boobs and ass aren't showing and are dressed age-appropriate, and no clown makeup

5) Social Media: Again, my house, my rules, and MY computer. Plus she didn't want the girls to be victims of cyber-bulling or online predators. But I asked my sister, did you check their other accounts, you know, the ones you don't know about. My sister would only monitor if she suspected something bad was going on.

6) Diaries: I think my sister would if she thought something was seriously wrong with my nieces or if they were missing or something of that nature.

In other words, my sister isn't a nosy mother unless she suspects something is wrong, which thankfully has been rare.

[Miggy]

When my kids first joined Facebook a condition was that they had to have me as a friend. My thinking was that if they can't say it in front of me, they shouldn't say it to the world in general. It was just a way of reminding them to think about who was reading. The added benefit was that people don't cyber bully someone when their mum is listening. (Especially when that mum is also a teacher at their school!) I've never thought of that as invading their privacy because it was something we discussed and they agreed to and because anything on the internet isn't really private anyway.

Diaries, texts, letters are a completely different situation. They were intended to be private and I would consider it a major lack of respect towards my kids to read them.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

When my kids first joined Facebook a condition was that they had to have me as a friend. My thinking was that if they can't say it in front of me, they shouldn't say it to the world in general. It was just a way of reminding them to think about who was reading. The added benefit was that people don't cyber bully someone when their mum is listening. (Especially when that mum is also a teacher at their school!) I've never thought of that as invading their privacy because it was something we discussed and they agreed to and because anything on the internet isn't really private anyway.

Diaries, texts, letters are a completely different situation. They were intended to be private and I would consider it a major lack of respect towards my kids to read them.

However, they can customize their privacy settings so you can't see everything they're posting. I often block my minister when I'm posting something naughty ;)

[lawlifelgbt]

Even teenagers need some privacy and control over their own lives, and often, even in serious situations, if you pry, the kid will shut down. When I started working at 16, my parents had full access to my checking account and debit card records (and did until I was 22 and working at a bank between law school and college and got my own card). I understand making sure I saved some, but instead of letting me have some independence, the money meant I was upbraided for going out for coffee with friends or to the movies or putting money in my lunch account (mom funded the basic lunch, but I wanted extras). Same in college, except it was about coffee, clothes, games, etc. I hated it, and I still have "money tricks."

I also kept a diary and wrote fiction. I came up with a cipher at 14 (complicated and involving replacing of each English letter with its Russian equivalent, since I knew the alphabet but not the language), because my parents felt like they could come in my room at any time, and my mom would often look through my things while she was cleaning. I wanted to be able to keep track of my life and thoughts on my own!

Also, from about 14-almost 17, I had a problem with self-harm. Parent snooping or reading my diary wouldn't have helped, and even if they could have found what I was using (after already growing up with a lack of privacy, I hid physical objects very well), that may have made things worse. Because constant scrutiny of myself and my life made me feel so uncomfortable, I never told them the entire truth about it. And anyway, I actually asked for help, which is really different from if you're snooping and find out the kid has a problem; in the latter case, they're likely to be far less willing to talk to you about it or fix things. If your kid has problems, being open and loving instead of controlling works better. I did receive help, but my thoughts and feelings seemed controlled even then; the logic was "I'm paying for you to go, NOW TELL ME WHAT YOU TALKED ABOUT!" This really made me reluctant to try to share things with my parents or address how they were parenting contributed to the problem.

TL;DR Never allowing your kids any privacy as teens doesn't protect them; it just makes them extremely sneaky, afraid of you, and less likely to come to you when something's going on.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Im another person who compulsively hides stuff. In my case, it was my sister who found and read my diary and used to go through my room and look for stuff I had hidden, but my mom used to read my mail until I was about 18 and told her to stop. It sort of made me shut off and hide things, even things I knew werent a big deal.

What they are doing is making sure that their kid just doesnt keep a record of anything they want to keep secret, and knows that their parents are never to be trusted.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re privacy: I've actually gone out of my way to assure that my oldest (turning 14) knows that she has safe places to seek help or advice that is confidential.

Her doctor stops inviting parents into the room once kids are 12. I stay in the waiting room, and am not part of the discussion. Both the doctor and I have assured my daughter that patient confidentiality is a really serious thing, and that it can't be broken unless it is a life-and-death situation. We've talked about the fact that there are other places that kids can be help if they need it, without their parents knowing. I think she knows that I don't freak out and that I'd be a good source of information and support, but control is less important to me than making sure that my kids will access any help that they need.

I'd also rather give a child privacy up front, than have then lie and sneak.

[lemonhead]

Also, from about 14-almost 17, I had a problem with self-harm. Parent snooping or reading my diary wouldn't have helped, and even if they could have found what I was using (after already growing up with a lack of privacy, I hid physical objects very well), that may have made things worse.

This is so true; I think someone else mentioned this earlier, but the more obsessive parents are about violating their childrens' privacy, the more clever those children will become at hiding things. I was homeschooled and extremely isolated, and my mother watched me like a hawk. In spite of that, I also self-harmed, and listened to rock music (this was late 80s, so I had to conceal a Walkman and headphones), drank, and um...explored my developing sexuality :embarrassed: --any of these behaviors would have resulted in serious punishment, but my parents never knew. The harder they cracked down, the sneakier I became. Trying to control other people often results in spectacularly unexpected deviousness!

I do wish I had thought of a cipher for my diary. I stopped writing in it when I caught my mother reading it. To this day, I often feel as though I am being watched, even when I know I am completely alone, although many years of therapy have helped me to kick my mother out of my head.

[Antigone]

I was a cutter as well, and it took a big toll on my personal life, since I didn't have a lot of emotional support- I did keep a diary but my parents were always curious about what was in it. I am sure they didn't read it (if they did, i'd probably be in the state mental ward instead of here years ago). With Sevy, I handle things differently, there is no way I want to violate her sense of independence. She knows she can always go to someone she trusts, and we won't be upset about it if it isn't one of us, as long as SOMEONE (adult) is aware of what is going on.

Facebook, internet, and texting and all that other techy stuff are to be tackled when she is a bit older- probably middle school. It also helps that she has a close knit circle of friends from all different walks of life, not just school. We just happened to get lucky with the kids in her class- they all seem to be very well adjusted and well behaved children. Of course, puberty can up the ante a bit.. :shrug:

When sevy was born, my parents finally got their act together and are better grandparents than parents, but at least they finally kind of shaped up and let my brother and me live our lives now.

[rward]

Drives me crazy when someone takes a few points that actually have some merit, and turns it into something bizarre.

First off - many behavior issues come down to genetics, or just plain luck. We don't control outcomes nearly as much as we think we do.

Now, there is some merit to parents being authoritative (not authoritarian), signaling that they are clearly in charge and teaching that showing respect is required. It gives kids a sense of security to know that someone is in charge, and that parents will stick to rules that they believe are best for a child even if the child tantrums or complains. I do believe that some parents actually train their children to whine or throw tantrums by ignoring good behavior and rewarding bad behavior (I've seen families like this).

I've also made it clear to my kids that there are limits with electronic communication - it's a privilege, not a right, and we have a responsibility to ensure safety and a lack of bullying. Diaries, however, are different - kids deserve to have a place to express private thoughts.

Studies have shown that "easy" babies- the happy, hardly cry at all sort of baby we all dream of- are fairly unaffected by parenting, good or bad. Conversely, fussy babies that constantly cry and need to be held all the time, etc., are very affected by parenting.

So, some kids, you can do all the right things and end up with a violent, drug addicted felon, and other kids, you could do everything wrong and end up with a well adjusted neurosurgeon.

I just think parents get caught up in trying to control the uncontrollable. It's scary to look at your little newborn (living with one right now) and think "she could die of SIDS or get bullied or cut herself or get addicted to meth or be murdered by her ex." It's terrifying to know all the things that can go wrong, so you do everything you can do- control what she eats, wears, schooling, etc.- in a desperate attempt to make that fear go away.

[AnywhereButHere]

Well, I only have a boy, so I guess he may be allowed to rebel, but hey...

Laugh at her disobedience and bad attitude when she is two or three, because she is just so cute. - But somethings are just worth the laugh. Like when my husband tried to get our son to eat his broccoli by telling him Santa would take his toys away if he didn't. Yeah, no. 3 year old looked at dad, pushed his bowl away, and told him, very disdainfully, to give that to Santa too. Between the tone and the look he gave, everyone was on the floor. He's been developing and honing the sarcasm from there. Major parenting fail on my part. :)

Expect that she will rebel when she is a teen, because it is a natural part of growing up. - Kind of a given, but the more age appropriate control I let him have over his life as we go, the less (I hope anyway - no guarantee) severe the rebellion later. I'll let you know how that turns out...

Let her develop relationships with friends that are closer than those of her family, because peer socialization is a vital need. - Closer I don't know, but certainly different, as it should be. And yes, peers are a vital part of growing up. A strong parental/familial relationship is a good base, but peers are the branches that form our futures and provide a nice solid thing to hang from if the base gets rocky. (Sorry! Kind of ran with the analogy there!)

Let her wear what everyone else is wearing, even though it is immodest, because you don’t want her to feel left out or made fun of. It’s the heart that matters, anyway. - Bullshit. My rules are, it must be weather and location/situation appropriate. Also, no one wants to see your butt. Pants must stay up. Other than that, go wild, express yourself.

Let her have a private Facebook page, email account, and texting because it’s none of your business what she is saying or displaying to her friends. - Eh. He has a Facebook. I am his friend and I have his password. It was a requirement of setting it up. Do I go on it? Not intentionally (he doesn't log off and we have one computer), yet anyway. He hasn't given me a reason to. I have looked at his texts, which led to a very productive discussion on the permanance of the written word (something his friend said, not him). It's my job to guide him, not police him even if they may feel one and the same to him right now.

Don’t ever read her diary, even when you have good cause to believe that she could be harming herself or may harm others, because that’s just plain awful. - Moot point since it would never occur to him to write one. He was writing a book about Roman Emporers. I put a halt on it when he got to Caligula and asked me what depraved perversions were. Do I get a parenting star for that one? :P

[QueenNocturne]

Growing up, many of my friends's parents, especially the religious ones, were like this. They had to have absolute control over their children and teenager, no dissent or even a slight attitude allowed. I can't tell you how many times I tried to hang out with my best friend, only to be told just before that she was grounded for two weeks because she wasn't 100% obedient to her parents.

Of course, when we turned 18, these friends were the ones who went bat-shit crazy and got involved in drugs, heavy drinking, unprotected sex....everything that their parents were trying to avoid by controlling every detail of their childhood and teenage lives. Funny how that works.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Growing up, many of my friends's parents, especially the religious ones, were like this. They had to have absolute control over their children and teenager, no dissent or even a slight attitude allowed. I can't tell you how many times I tried to hang out with my best friend, only to be told just before that she was grounded for two weeks because she wasn't 100% obedient to her parents.

Of course, when we turned 18, these friends were the ones who went bat-shit crazy and got involved in drugs, heavy drinking, unprotected sex....everything that their parents were trying to avoid by controlling every detail of their childhood and teenage lives. Funny how that works.

Thats the logical course. You cant prevent rebellion by being controlling, it just makes it all get pent up inside and then explode when there is no longer any control over them and the teenage years of finding your own identity and learning how to make your own way in life begin. Controlling a child into adulthood is basically delaying natural human development.

[Miggy]

It's my job to guide him, not police him even if they may feel one and the same to him right now.

I think this sums up what we are all saying really.

[snarktastic]

Laugh at her disobedience and bad attitude when she is two or three, because she is just so cute.

Expect that she will rebel when she is a teen, because it is a natural part of growing up.

Let her develop relationships with friends that are closer than those of her family, because peer socialization is a vital need.

Let her wear what everyone else is wearing, even though it is immodest, because you don’t want her to feel left out or made fun of. It’s the heart that matters, anyway.

Let her have a private Facebook page, email account, and texting because it’s none of your business what she is saying or displaying to her friends.

Don’t ever read her diary, even when you have good cause to believe that she could be harming herself or may harm others, because that’s just plain awful.

Funnily enough, I do / did all of those with teenaged DD - with pretty much all the sensible caveats outlined above - and we get on just fine.

I did try not to laugh when she was having those toddler tantrums but she was totally hilarious.

Also, all the 'bad influence' kids are absolutely welcome round our house, and guess what, they're really nice kids.

[nellautumngirl]

Wow, that's horrible. I don't think you should ever, ever read your child's diary, except when you have reason to believe that something lifethreatening is going on. I can't imagine how betrayed and angry you would feel. But of course it's not about the child, why would it be, your paranoia is much more important :roll: