this woman makes me sick - Vicki Courtney

[Witsec6]

Did anyone else catch this bit:

I was humbly reminded of this fact a few weeks ago when my oldest son delivered the news, “Mom, I think Casey may be pregnant.†(For those who may be new to my blog, I announced my son’s engagement back in late December in this post.) Faced with the sobering moment of truth that followed his disclosure, I did what most any mother would do — I wrapped my son in my arms and assured him that with God’s help, we’d get through it.

Was this guy so freaked out/uninformed that he thought that having sex once meant pregnancy? Do you think if he'd known how the shaming was going to go down he'd have mentioned it?

[GeoBQn]

This reminds me of that news story about a woman who was fired from teaching in a small private Christian school because she got pregnant out of wedlock--and by "out of wedlock," I mean she got pregnant by her fiancé two weeks before their planned wedding. The whole idea of church discipline boggles my mind. It's not like the laws of a country. Churches are voluntary. You can say "Screw this!" and leave at anytime. You might have conflicted feelings about leaving, but leaving is still possible.

[jockosmom]

Confession time. I got pregnant at 16. My boyfriend and I had been going out for only 4 months when I got pregnant, either the first or second time we had sex. I had no real knowledge about sex, no older siblings or cousins to ask questions of or observe. I also thought, in my total ignorance, that having sex once or twice probably wasn't enough to get pregnant. You heard people talking about couples "trying to get pregnant", "trying to have a baby", etc. It seemed to me like there must be some kind of trick to it! :D

Anyway, it didn't come out as general knowledge to my parents that I was pregnant until I was 4 months along and only then because I had constant morning sickness (morning, noon, and night). My mother then suspected and confronted me. I admitted that I "could" be pregnant. (I was in denial a little :? ) She asked me what I wanted to do and I said I wanted to give the baby up for adoption. She said no, if I wanted to give the baby away, it wouldn't go to strangers, she and Dad would take the baby and raise it. So there I was, one month from my 17th birthday, just finishing my junior year of high school, pregnant with a baby that my parents wanted to raise, I was the oldest of five; all I ever did was babysit and take care of kids. If I let my parents adopt my baby, I knew who was going to be taking care of that baby all the time. It would be my baby, but it would be my mother's child; she would call all the shots and make all the decisions but I would be the live-in babysitter/nanny. I knew I'd never get out of that house if I went that route.

My boyfriend wanted to get married; his parents were in favor of us getting married, so I told my parents thanks, but no thanks on raising my child. My boyfriend and I would be married and raise the child ourselves. So we had a tacky little wedding in my home church, with me 5 months pregnant and definitely showing it. I was 17; he was 18.

We ended up being married for 17 years and having three children altogether before we divorced. I love my children dearly, of course. They are all grown up now and I think I did a pretty good job for being such a young mom. At 17, I was more mature and grown-up than any of my own kids were at 17.

But when I think back on the whole thing, I still have a lot of anger and resentment over the way the whole thing was handled. I felt like I had no real choices and a good part of my young life evaporated into changing diapers and taking care of babies. I made sure that all of my kids were well-informed about the mechanics and consequences of sex and made sure my daughter had access to birth control as a 15-year old.

[Spartan89]

God's logic, according to the fundies, just makes absolutely no sense to me. I mean, they go on and on about what a gift and blessing children are. I remember in one of the one hour Duggar specials Michelle said "saying there are too many children is like saying there are too many flowers!" Following that train of logic, why wouldn't we all be out having premarital sex constantly? I mean, God will reward it with a gift! That doesn't seem like a very logical way to punish a sin....

Maybe fundies should own up and admit that they believe some children are horrible punishments.

[higgledypiggledy]

I was visiting in the church of a friend. The group had a good news moment where class members shared positive things happening in their lives. A woman said she had a big thing to share. She got engaged this last Christmas. They recently moved up their wedding date to this weekend. They are keeping their reception as originally scheduled. Then she shared with everyone her new wedding date and invited them all to come. Then she said that last week when she announced their new date she didn't share the reason why. It turns out she is pregnant and her dress wouldn't fit if she waited much longer. This was not a shame faced confessional but rather a, "Can you believe this is happening? We are so excited. I'm 37 and thought my childbearing years were probably behind me." The whole room burst into enthusiastic congratulations and hugs and even some clapping. What a difference! By the way, this was in a Mormon church, SHOCKER! Everyone was thrilled about the new baby coming and no one said anything about pregnancy before marriage. They all wanted to know about her due date, how they could help this Saturday, if she was feeling okay, did she need some meals brought in. It was delightful to watch this soon to be mom bask in the glow of love she felt. I may not hold with everything that church does and maybe this is an isolated response but it sure shocked the heck out of me I would have expected this to be a shameful secret or something people in the know kept on the down low. Instead it turned out to be joyful moment.

[Joykins]

God's logic, according to the fundies, just makes absolutely no sense to me. I mean, they go on and on about what a gift and blessing children are. I remember in one of the one hour Duggar specials Michelle said "saying there are too many children is like saying there are too many flowers!" Following that train of logic, why wouldn't we all be out having premarital sex constantly? I mean, God will reward it with a gift! That doesn't seem like a very logical way to punish a sin....

Maybe fundies should own up and admit that they believe some children are horrible punishments.

Children are a blessing to righteous, pure, godly wives.

They are a punishment to filthy sluts. For at least a few years, anyway, until the gossip is old. Then they get to be blessings too.

[silvia]

Vicki just came out with a book called "5 Conversations You Must Have With Your Son." I guess the "use protection if you do have sex" conversation didn't make the grade. :-P

[Buzzard]

Confused Jew here...

Children are a gift from god. Gifts are good things... They had premarital sex (boooo) yet recieved a gift from god (yay!). Therefore, god approved of their premarital sex by rewarding them with a present.

Spreading the word of their sin is actually speaking against god because clearly, in this case (if you stick to their reasoning), god approved of the premarital sex and rewarded it.

[lilah]

That last statement is true...parenthood will cut into their couple time as newlyweds.

Given how many fundie girls practically get pregnant on their honeymoon and no one kvetches about how they don't get to act like newlyweds for very long, this seems like a stupid double standard to me.

[nutella addict]

My parents picked my church because not only would the pastor marry them even though they weren't members (had just moved to the area) but he also didn't even blink when they bought baby me in to their first premarital pastoral counselling appointment. Nobody else cared either, they were middle-aged and had been engaged for well over a year before I came along.

This woman is disgusting. I feel for that couple. The punishment for premarital sex in the Bible, as far as I know, is to get married. There isn't even a sin offering involved!

When I hung out with conservatives I tortured myself that if I had sex with my boyfriend before the wedding I'd be a horrible person, and I had said in high school I wanted to be abstinent (my choice, only one of my three sibs to do this) and so I maintained that for a long long time, until I began to question that idea (I still don't want to sleep with more than one person, I just don't see what's so wrong if the commitment is already there well before the wedding) and started avoiding the subject in conversation altogether. After being together for years (nearly 7 now) most people (except my parents, because to them I'm still a child, but my other relatives and his family and all our friends) consider us to be practically married or at least engaged, even though we haven't gotten around to the bother of a ring yet, and just waiting for the ceremony when we're done school (I just had to run off and get a Masters...) and have saved up money. Pretty sure having sex with him won't "make Jesus cry" at this point. He's over 3000 miles away though. But the point is I think my mom is just generally against having babies in the early 20s or younger, nobody else would really care, although a few might be surprised who knew we'd been abstinent, and even my mom would be excited after she got over the shock, because she loves kids. And because at 23 I still look 17 I'd get a lot of dirty looks if I were pregnant, and mutters about teenage pregnancies.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Damn, what a judgmental, toxic, gossipy bitch. I hope her son and his family escape and are very happy in their new lives.

[O Latin]

Vicki just came out with a book called "5 Conversations You Must Have With Your Son." I guess the "use protection if you do have sex" conversation didn't make the grade. :-P

Wait, is this the lady that wrote "5 Conversations You Must Have WIth Your Daughter"? Is it her son who got his fiance pregnant? I read that book (because I am weird and like to read random books I pull off the shelf at the library) and at the time (maybe two, two-and-a-half years ago) I agreed with a lot of it. I don't think I would now, though.

If this is the same lady, I don't think they are super-fundie QF, though. She only has two or three kids and in the daughter book she makes a big deal about sending her daughter off to college. So I don't think son and fiance would have necessarily been expected to start popping out babies the moment they said "I do," which would explain the whole "financial woes" thing.

[slh12280]

At my old conservative Baptist Church an engaged couple ended up pregnant. Of course, everyone found out about it, but they got over it. The pastor still married them and people eventually got excited about the baby. There was no apologizing in front of the church.

This whole thing is not very pro life if you ask me. A baby is either a blessing all the time or it isn't. The logic is weird. If you want to engage in absolutist thinking you can't change your mind when circumstances change. This was just way over the top.

[fundiefun]

Wait, is this the lady that wrote "5 Conversations You Must Have WIth Your Daughter"? Is it her son who got his fiance pregnant? I read that book (because I am weird and like to read random books I pull off the shelf at the library) and at the time (maybe two, two-and-a-half years ago) I agreed with a lot of it. I don't think I would now, though.

If this is the same lady, I don't think they are super-fundie QF, though. She only has two or three kids and in the daughter book she makes a big deal about sending her daughter off to college. So I don't think son and fiance would have necessarily been expected to start popping out babies the moment they said "I do," which would explain the whole "financial woes" thing.

Yes that is her she also runs in the same circle as Dannah Gresh who I really used to like when I read her book "And the Bride wore white", but I am no longer a fan when she started criticizing women who work outside the home and how sad it was the motherhood is no longer thought of as a "career" which I found very hypocritical when she leaves her family for months at a time to go on tour and do presentations and book signings so Dannah really has no room to talk. When I called Dannah out on this on her blog or fb I can't remember which one it was she deleted the comment because she knew I was right.

[liltwinstar]

It's this kind of thing that makes "good church girls" think that abortion is their only option if they're pregnant and not married. They can't purchase/use birth control because that would be pre-meditated sin. They can't just laugh it off the way secular women often can and buy a maternity wedding dress (like Pam from The Office). They can't give the baby up for adoption because then everyone will know they're pg (plus they might not want to do that). If they have an abortion, they will be spared the pubic shame (assuming no one finds out), but they'll have to deal with the fact that they did something they've been told all their lives is really the ultimate sin.

So, they're stuck - because if anyone knows they're pg they have to go through humiliating bullshit like this. It removes all choice from these women, and that's just beyond sad. And if what this woman is doing is "loving" then I want no part of that kind of "love."

[sacrilicious]

I really hope they elope and move far, far away. What a turd of a mother...

[Kaylee]

It's this kind of thing that makes "good church girls" think that abortion is their only option if they're pregnant and not married. They can't purchase/use birth control because that would be pre-meditated sin. They can't just laugh it off the way secular women often can and buy a maternity wedding dress (like Pam from The Office). They can't give the baby up for adoption because then everyone will know they're pg (plus they might not want to do that). If they have an abortion, they will be spared the pubic shame (assuming no one finds out), but they'll have to deal with the fact that they did something they've been told all their lives is really the ultimate sin.

So, they're stuck - because if anyone knows they're pg they have to go through humiliating bullshit like this. It removes all choice from these women, and that's just beyond sad. And if what this woman is doing is "loving" then I want no part of that kind of "love."

This, and I really wish people would understand that. They didn't come up with the saying "the only moral abortion is mine" for no reason. I have a friend who had an abortion for this exact reason - she got pregnant in a situation that most people would consider rape, but her family would have blamed her for, then had an abortion because she didn't want to be ostracized and was afraid her dad would lose his job as a pastor if it got out. The whole thing was so sad, but I wonder how common it is.

There is a lot of pressure in some circles for underage girls to be sent away when they are pregnant and give the baby up for adoption, and I two women who were pressured into abortions by their parents, even though they were anti-abortion, because they did not want their family, church, and community to find out about the pregnancy. Of course, it also spared the guys' reputations totally, because nobody found out about it and the women could never speak up without being accused of worse sins. One of these women is now an atheist, but the other is still very religious and carries around a ton of guilt over it, to the point of feeling like a miscarriage she had was some sort of punishment for it.

[CanadianHippie]

Confused Jew here...

Children are a gift from god. Gifts are good things... They had premarital sex (boooo) yet recieved a gift from god (yay!). Therefore, god approved of their premarital sex by rewarding them with a present.

Spreading the word of their sin is actually speaking against god because clearly, in this case (if you stick to their reasoning), god approved of the premarital sex and rewarded it.

Not quite...

Marriage + sex = baby is a gift

No marriage + sex = baby is punishment for sinning.

Remember, this is fundie logic we're dealing with here.

[mythoughtis]

I love the logic disconnect here

Student loans = tells me that these are adults over the age of 18 and at least partially college educated.

Tight budget = somehow managing to start a home and pay for a wedding, so should be able to afford a baby. So they shop at Kmart rather than Macy's.

Move up the wedding = tells me that they loved each other and had already planned to be together.... and that they were committed to being co-parents to this unexpected child.

Fundie = would have gotten pregnant shortly after the wedding night anyway.... God doesn't care about a few months, since he is the one giving the blessing

I'm with the rest of you. These two should get married, move away, find a church that understands the definition of being human, and GRACE. Tell Mom to 'not judge lest she be judged, and to worry about the plank in her own eye... she's obviously got several of them".

And, they should definitely protect their child from the wrath of Grandma, who will treat her as an object of shame rather than a loved Grandchild

[fundiefan]

I don't think the things she said to her son about the financial issues is all that different from what other parents might say, fundie or not. Whether it's 'wait to have children', 'wait til your careers are on track or you are at least stable and comfortable', 'wait til you buy a house'...before having a baby, parents give their kids advice like that all the time, right or wrong good or bad. They also suggest waiting to get married until you're done with college or any number of other things. Parental advice runs the gamut of life decisions.

It's the shame she pours on them. It's that in her post title ...it's a godly sorrow. She says the couple are sorrowful of their sin. Um, hello? They were engaged to be married. It's not like they met at a bar and had a roll in the hay that made a baby. If the couple honestly feels they sinned and feel sorrow, I am appalled for them. What a horrendous, miserable, sad way to begin your life together with a baby. When they had an ultrasound it was a sobering moment. Not a joyful one; not a new life created by two people who love each other. Sobering.

She ends it all saying she will use this as part of her ministry.

The woman is a bitch, plain and simple. The adult kids not only have to deal with all the new things of adult, married life and a new baby just as any other young couple who has an unplanned pregnancy, they are shamed by his mother, the child is a source of sorrow - oh, excuse me, a godly sorrow - and their entire lives will forever be used in as a public 'what not to do' by the mother as she shares her 'ministry'.

Good Lord. I am pro choice all the way. I am all for birth control and choice. I made the choice not to have kids. Yet, I see more reason to be joyful over that baby than its own family. I see no shame or sorrow in the baby's existence or conception. Unfortunately, its family see's its existence as a reason to alter wedding plans - that are already in place - and force the couple to call apparently everyone they know and explain their sin. It's all really disgusting to me.

[liltwinstar]

I wonder if the shame the mom feels and dishes out is because she thinks her son "cheated" her out of the perfect courtship/wedding scenario? I seriously think that a lot of the "purity" rhetoric is a type of voyeruism, and people get seriously bent out of shape when they're denied their fix.

(edited for clarity)

[hoipolloi]

Why did this awful woman need to "share" any of this on her website? Was she afraid that other, "Christ-honoring" members of her church or family would make a public comment on her son's situation and so she tried to for a pre-emptive strike?

The only reasons I can come up with have to do with her ego (as in, "Look at me & how godly I am!") and her desire to punish her son and DIL-to be. I, too, hope these young people move far, far away from such a destructive presence in their lives. Neither they nor their children need to be around this woman.

I may not be a Christian, but even I can see that her behavior has nothing to do with Jesus, and everything to do with her.

[Edited for an attempt at greater clarity]

[TheBuddha]

IN my fundie days, Marriage to me, was nothing more than aggrement between 2 elgible parties, in front of atleast 2 witness and consumation..

In the tax code, and basically in the laws of our land- I do not even think the term marriage should occur. of course im very libertarian in my views but....

[gracegrace]

True story: A long time ago (I'm in my 50s now), I was in junior high and our next door neighbors were thoroughly fundylite (conservative evangelical church, public schools but part of a congregation that was very much the bible is literally true, etc). They had several kids, but it's the story of the two daughters that stays with me.

Daughter 1: got married in her very early 20s to a guy, had three kids with him. Husband was abusive (physically and emotionally) but family encouraged her to stay with him because divorce wasn't godly. Eventually though hubby's behavior got bad enough that she did leave him, divorced, and moved back in with her folks.

Daughter 2: went off to some odd sort of junior college/art school/missionary training after graduating from high school. After a couple of years returned, lived at home, dated various guys, finally settled down in her mid 20s with somebody stable. Years later we found out that the odd art school never existed. She'd gotten pregnant (on prom night!) and her folks had sent her away to have the baby, who was given up for adoption. We found out through a third party -- an old church friend of theirs who gossiped to my mom. I've always since been so sad. Did M. actually want to give her baby up for adoption? Did she have a choice? Did she ever feel angry that her parents essentially helped to raise her sister's kids after the divorce but didn't offer her the same help? And it's so sad that her parents -- who were always very kind to me and my sibs -- thought that the best thing to do was to send M away and lie to everyone about where she was.

Ever since, I've been convinced that a church community that is pro-life needs to actively support young parents, whether or not they're married. It needs to be the parents' choice whether or not to make an adoption plan for their child.

[Patsy]

Huh? As far as I can tell the young couple will be just fine as long as they don't have the old lady around screeching about how much they will come to despise each other for not having done this all the pure, Christian way.

I was more pointing at her being a horrible bitch to them. I'm not predicting problems in their relationship.

It's this kind of thing that makes "good church girls" think that abortion is their only option if they're pregnant and not married.

Pro-life = you had better fucking fawn over that pregnant teenager. I mean it. Whether or not you're pro-life, they've got a lot to deal with and need community support.

Even if you're sad and worried about a pregnancy, how helpful is it to never hear a genuine "congratulations!" upon the news? Even if you are screwing up, how helpful is it to have people condemning you for what you did, rather than enabling you to do better in the future? In what way is it pro-life to be actively screwing over that baby by ensuring their parents feel useless and worthless before it's even BORN?

Pat the kitten, pat the cat doesn't go one way - if you really give a shit about that baby, you'll help the mother. Or at least not, you know, treat them like absolute shit for what you know they did (when they were brave enough NOT to make sure you wouldn't know, via doing what you think is even worse, just SO you wouldn't know.) (Hey, guess who has a family member who was villified, condemned and kicked out of her 'pro-life' church for not having an abortion?)