"Promoting Homosexuality"? A rant

[JesusFightClub]

It's the Fail, so look away now and I will give you a summary of the article for those who rightly fear clickage:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... tyles.html

Basically, Glover (who is a fool, but he writes for the Fail so we knew that) is saying "What's wrong with a ban on promoting homosexuality in schools? It doesn't stop anyone explaining it. How could any right-minded person object?"

This is a truly weird idea, that schools were "promoting" homosexuality (how does one do that?) Or "the gay lifestyle" (whatever this may be). The thought is so utterly bewildering that I don't even have words.

Back to Glover:

Stonewall, which campaigns for homosexual rights, is indignant, and suggests that these schools are reviving the language of Section 28, the law introduced by the Thatcher government in 1988 aimed at ‘loony left’ councils, some of which were energetically promoting homosexuality in schools.

Section 28 banned councils from using taxpayers’ money to fund books, plays, films or other material to promote homosexuality. Though its wording was hardly draconian, and no prosecution was ever brought under it, Section 28 has assumed mythic proportions in the minds of gay activists.

I grew up under Section 28 (Clause 2A as it's known in Scottish law). This was a law which prevented "the promotion of homosexuality in schools". It was passed by the Thatcher government and repealed in 2003. How it worked in practice was that any discussion of homosexuality could be seen as promotion, so the topic was not discussed in schools. At all.

When we had "the special talk" in S2, the beaming nurse told us we could ask "any questions which are on your minds. Anything! I'm a nurse, I'm not shy!" One bold soul put his hand up and said "Scuse me, Miss, Ah'm not being cheeky or owt, but is it true some homo men, like, do it to each other in the airse? Or how dae they dae it?" (These were innocent days, before the Internet.) The nurse blushed, was on the brink of answering, and then said "I'm not allowed to talk about that. Next question?"

Same was with the books we read at school. Books that "promoted the gay lifestyle" weren't allowed, so although we didn't know it at the time, we missed out on loads of books which had positive gay characters. The worst thing you could call someone at my school was a "homo" or a "lezza" or a "lemon". That was fighting talk! So yeah, I think the ban on "promotion of homosexuality" was very bad and very damaging for all of us growing up, gay and straight. If we could have seen homosexuality as something which wasn't so weird and so terrifying even nurses and teachers couldn't mention it, our attitudes would have been more healthy.

But shouldn’t parents who have reservations about the promotion of homosexuality on equal terms with heterosexuality be free to send their children to schools where their views are reflected, as well as respected?

There isn't really a right to "send your child to a school where all your views are respected". Small goes to a school where her class teacher last year told the pupils "If it's in the Bible it is true". And that's a UK state school and a class of mixed religions.

Her dad sat down with her and discussed why the teacher might think that and why he reckoned she was wrong. Small asked if it was OK to think the teacher made a mistake. Her dad said "Yes, but normally teachers are right when they tell you things about maths and drawing and plants and writing. With God and Jesus, we don't know about them, and your teacher is probably wrong about that." He didn't storm to the school demanding an atheist teacher to reflect ickle pweshus's dad's beliefs.

Don’t such people have a right to influence their children’s values according to their own beliefs and consciences, rather than having them imposed by gay campaigners or commissars from the Department for Education, who extol freedom so long as it is the kind of freedom of which they approve?

Yes. Do it at home. Don't make schools teach it. Schools should be based on equality for all.

I would love to know how any school could teach every single student that their parents' beliefs were correct. So if I had kids I could demand that my child got a curriculum reflecting socialist values. Little Tyler who sits next to my child has parents who have demanded he gets a curriculum stating explicitly that being a homo isnae right, ken. Aisha on her other side has parents who have demanded a full Muslim curriculum, with teachings from the Qu'ran and hadith. Jonah two rows back has parents who want ABeka and readings from the Bible, and Rainbow Moonstar in the front row has parents who want her to be given only vegan food, taught to love all animals and given extracts from Steven Best. Yes, I see this being workable. :whistle:

So, before this gets even more tl:dr, I am mired in confusion about what "promotion of homosexuality" may mean, and also how a state school (public school in US) could be expected to live up to all parents' values. Any ideas?

[walnut]

"I BECOME gay because someone in school told me about homosexuality in sex ed class" - said no gay person ever.

[Gertie]

I can only imagine that promoting homosexuality in schools would consist of telling kids that being gay is preferable to being straight, and encouraging them all to "lead a gay lifestyle."

[Vex]

I can't even.

Seriously. I know it's the Fail, but I just can't with this shit. Hopefully Stonewall tears him a new arsehole. You know, to be fucked. Cause homosexual lifestyle.

[ILoveJellybeans]

How can not teaching about gay people prevent people from being gay.

I knew I liked girls long before I realised that was an option.

[rward]

These people are so effin' whiney.

Look at it this way. Plenty of kosher Jewish children go to public schools. At these schools, they are exposed to the delights of pork products. They can see and smell such products and see other children eating them. Somehow, these brave children avoid the temptations of pork, according to their parents' teachings.

So, either Judaism or kosher Jewish parents are stronger than Christianity and Christian parents, or somebody needs to STFU and STFD.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

So, before this gets even more tl:dr, I am mired in confusion about what "promotion of homosexuality" may mean, and also how a state school (public school in US) could be expected to live up to all parents' values. Any ideas?

I can only speak to the US situation as filtered through the letters to the editor section in my local fishwrap.

Here there have been complaints and handwringing over supposedly "teaching" or "promoting" homosexuality to very young kids - kindergarten and lower elementary. What it boiled down to was presentation of materials or any discussion of homosexual characters. The usual symbol of the target in these letters is the book "Heather has Two Mommies." Parents don't want their kids reading this book (or having similar discussions about any women pairs or men pairs), thinking that if they don't bring it up, their kids will never realize it happens.

(Unless some kid in their class DOES have two moms or two dads, of course!)

Supposedly any discussion of homosexuality is "too advanced for kids" "not appropriate for elementary school" or "we should get to introduce such sensitive topics when they're older."

The underlying problem seems to be that these letter writers assume that homosexual relationships are all about sex. If you mention a family has two men for parents, INSTANTLY that equals "ZOMG buttsex!!1!!!!" and some thoughts of how that's disgusting and 5 year old don't need to know about sexual perversions.

...which always strikes me as kinda stupid. People don't think about "ZOMG sex!!1!!" about heterosexual parent pairs, so why should homosexual ones be any different? Most 5 year olds don't think of "Mom and Dad" as "people having sex!11!1!" but rather "parents, one is a man and one is a woman."

So Heather and her two moms, she just has two moms. That's it. Five year olds are not instantly thinking of the mechanics of lesbian sex when they hear about two moms. Little kids think about families and family roles!

Anyway, it's just something that's been bugging me for a while - and it's a regular topic in our letters, for whatever reason. That and the endless arguments about evolution - yes, in 2013, in a town with a major university. I wish I were kidding.

[Zoom]

JFC why did I not know you when I lived in Scotland?

All I can say to this is I AGREE!!!!!

[docmom]

At my children's school there are quite a few children with gay parents (at least 2 per class). The "gay lifestyle" is a part of everyday life for my children. They have always known children with 2 mothers and 2 fathers. They sometimes debate the relative merits of having a mother and father vs 2 mothers/2 fathers but the debate is from the perspective of a child and has to do with relative leniency, showing up at school events, being good a dancing etc. It never, ever has anything to do with sex. My kids see gay adults as adults, just like all other adults (pretty decent overall but a pain when you want to do something and they don't want you to) and I couldn't be happier. And you know, despite all this positive promoting of homosexuality, my son is actually heterosexual! I mean, it's incredible right? AND even more amazing, all the teenage children of my gay friends are also heterosexual! I mean, that can't be right can it?

[MissA]

Last year I attended my first gay wedding... a buddy from college. And while they have are actually an excellent promotion for the gay lifestyle (hell yes I'd love to be a successful physician and living in a fab apartment in Manhattan with my attorney husband) I have somehow managed to resist going down on other women. Dunno why, I must be unusually psychically resistant.

If the only thing keeping your kid from going gay is their absolute ignorance of the fact that it's even a possibility I think that that train has sailed.

[Ariel]

How can not teaching about gay people prevent people from being gay.

I knew I liked girls long before I realised that was an option.

It doesn't prevent gay people from being gay, but it probably ensures a lot of people stay closeted.

I don't think the goal of this is to prevent homosexuality so much as it is to prevent the sight of homosexuality. Keep the gays closeted and shameful and they might not gain enough power to fight for their rights.

[JesusFightClub]

GardenVarietyCitizen, I totally agree.

It seems that some people's minds go to sex when they meet a lesbian or gay couple. Which is totally weird, because if I meet a male/female couple I don't instantly wonder if they have anal sex or regular cunnilingus. That would be weird and a sign of perversion.

[Arete]

So I guess promoting homosexuality is viewed the same way promoting literacy is in school. The more you promote it, the more people will engage.

I just can't with this brain killing......

[TurtleBelly]

JFC wrote:

Schools should be based on equality for all.

I am a public school literature and composition teacher, secondary level, in the Pacific Northwest in America. We're a rural school with a blend of mostly white ranchers, traditional Latino families, and some Native Americans. Despite proximity to the more liberal bigger cities of the PNW, it's a fairly conservative small town. Most students by high school either know which classmates are gay/lesbian, or have GBTL friends and relatives, and I've seen attitudes shift over time from making fun of those kids who were gay to pretty much being accepted. Every now and then, I see jocks roll their eyes behind the back of a more flamboyant young man in the halls, but I've never heard them be mean to his face. I see kids who I know are very religiously conservative leave gay kids alone, or be tolerant, or even be friendly and inclusive. I'm proud of how far the student body has come, but it's possibly a symptom of changing culture. Though I don't teach health or sexuality, it does come up in literature or in students' written arguments. As a teacher, I just reiterate that you don't have to always agree, but the bigger person can be tolerant and peaceful even if they don't agree. Belligerence and put downs make people defensive, and unlikely to change anyway. I do have to remind students at start of each year why "gay" isn't allowed as a put down in my class/at our school. Kids use it to mean lame or dumb, I don't think many even use it in the homosexual way anymore. Sometimes kids ask me why I make such a big deal about it. I, and most teachers I know, try to be as neutral as possible. I say, "well, if being gay is something you're born with, it's not okay to make fun when it's not someone's fault, like skin color or curly hair." Then I add, "I know some of you think it's a choice someone makes, and remember-all people make choices, and no makes the right choice all the time....again, not something to make fun of about someone for since none of us is perfect." Years ago, I might have had similar issues with racial terms, but luckily, our students aren't very racist anymore. But they do use "gay" a lot, so that's the big one I'm correcting a lot the last few years. But I don't think that means I'm promoting homosexuality. I always try to acknowledge many sides of something without dismissing anyone, and without giving away my view. Best to stay positive but neutral.

[Jana814]

"I BECOME gay because someone in school told me about homosexuality in sex ed class" - said no gay person ever.

Love it & so true!

[Mama Mia]

It doesn't prevent gay people from being gay, but it probably ensures a lot of people stay closeted.

I don't think the goal of this is to prevent homosexuality so much as it is to prevent the sight of homosexuality. Keep the gays closeted and shameful and they might not gain enough power to fight for their rights.

Unfortunately I think many oF them do actually think that learning that homosexual people are just regular people will lead their children to become gay. It's an argument that they try to use regarding marriage equality laws.... That if same sex marriage is acceptable somehow their own marriages and the future of heterosexual marriage is jeopordized. It makes no sense at all, unless the only thing keeping them from running off to start a new life with a Sam.e sex partner is that it is socially unacceptable.

[Little Miss Alien]

The stupid thing is that they're not supposed to promote any particular lifestyle, but by talking about straight lifestyles as the default, they're promoting that. Thankfully my school was pretty liberal for 16 years ago, with openly gay studrnts and we did learn about differrnt lifestyles, but I'm not leaving it up to my kiddo's school and as he has already had a friendship with a neighbourhood boy with 2 Mums I've made it perfectly clear that love is love and it doesn't matter if there are 2 mums, 2 dads or whstever. He has asked how can babies be made without a mum and a dad, but I've just told him that people can get help from doctors to have babies and he's happy wiyh that.

He knows that things taught at school are because the head teacher believes in god and our family doesn't but that it's his choice to decide what to believe. He has Aspergers so I don't think he understands the concept of God, but love is tangible and he can easily understand how people can love each other regardless of biology. Sex ed is something parents shouldn't be leaving to schools and it should be a joint effort. I don't want it taken out of the classroom, but I think parents need to be much more involved. Leaving it to school is lazy parenting.