TTUAC methods/blanket training- making kids stupider?

[lawlifelgbt]

I was thinking about a book I read (Ghosts from the Nursery) as well as several studies showing the brain undergoes massive neural growth before age 2. The more stimulating the environment, the more a very young child's neurons grow, setting them up to be more curious and intelligent later in life.

In order to grow neurons, a baby or very young child needs to have a lot of objects and environments to explore and play, and they need a strong bond with one carer and lots of talking to and playing with them one-on-one.

Fundies already lack in the bonding and time for the kid aspects. But is it also possible that beating a baby or young child when they reach for/explore/try to play with things, and forcing them to sit still (stay on a blanket, etc.) would, by restricting their stimulation, mean less neural growth? The child has no options to grow more later, since the brain is only "plastic" at a very young age. That would mean they're stuck with "stunted" brains for the rest of their lives.

I know that SODRT isn't usually very good, but could my hypothesis explain why:

1. Some fundies just seem dumb, even if you take into account a lack of real education; and

2. Young fundies (e.g. the Lost Girls) seem developmentally delayed.

I'd love to see brain scans of kids who grew up in fundie megafamilies vs. normal people. And IQ tests. Could there be an actual neurological difference?

What do you guys think?

[ILoveJellybeans]

Yeah, I think there will be.

Kids in large fundie families, as well as the damage caused by having their natural instincts and curiosity squashed, also get neglected. I have noticed the little Duggar kids arent as good at speech and seem younger than Mackynzie, even if she is about Jordyn and Josies age. I blame this on the lack of parental attention.

Theres also how babies left to cry shut down as a survival mechanism, as they think they have been abandoned and stop crying in case it attracts predators. I imagine that will cause a lot of damage.

It is also hard to make a proper attatchment with your parents because there are so many other kids needing it, so a lot of the care is done by various siblings. Its also hard to attach to someone who one minute loves you, then the next minute they are hitting you with plumbing line, for reasons the baby doesnt know. Their parents seem unpredictable, they dont know whether their new discovery, when presented to their parents, will result in praise or a beating. They dont know whether their needs are going to be met.

They also dont get a chance to develop normally into adulthood. Normally kids grow into teenagers and get the chance to explore the world and define themselves before leaving home. Fundies dont get that, they are kept in a perpetual childlike state until they get married, then they are pushed out on their own. When they do leave home, their teenage years can then start, but its hard for them to catch up because theres so much theyve missed and so much fear and guilt about it-theyve never been taught to function in the real world.

[rward]

Hell, I can see this with my dogs.

My last dog was encouraged from puppyhood to explore and interact. Yeah, I put up with some bad behavior over the years, but by the end of his life, he knew over 200 words and could, for example, "bring [husband] the red bone".

My current dog (a rescue) was harshly trained and kept in a crate nearly 24/7 for years. Training him is worse than pulling teeth. He tries, don't get me wrong, but no one ever taught him to learn from humans. He also doesn't understand pointing, which is inherent to dogs.

(Note: This is not a condemnation of rescue. My current dog is a sweet, mellow lovebug I wouldn't trade for the smartest dog in the world. He's just . . . slow.)

[salex]

a sweet, mellow lovebug I wouldn't trade for the smartest dog in the world. (S)He's just . . . slow.

Sounds exactly what most of these guys want in a helpmeet. Hence training getting results desired?

[rward]

a sweet, mellow lovebug I wouldn't trade for the smartest dog in the world. (S)He's just . . . slow.

Sounds exactly what most of these guys want in a helpmeet. Hence training getting results desired?

The really scary part is, people keep asking me why his behavior is getting "worse". By "worse", they mean he no longer huddles on the couch, too scared to move. That's a terrifying definition of "good".

[purpleeee]

That's a really interesting question and sent me looking. Right now I'm reading this:

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/issue ... ffects.cfm

and this bit struck me:

Most teenagers act impulsively at times .... For teens who have been abused, neglected, or traumatized, this impulsive behavior may be even more apparent. Often, these youth have developed brains that focus on survival, at the expense of the more advanced thinking that happens in the brain's cortex (Chamberlain, 2009). An underdeveloped cortex can lead to increased impulsive behavior, as well as difficulties with tasks that require higher-level thinking and feeling. These teens may show delays in school and in social skills as well (Chamberlain, 2009). .... Teenagers who lack stable relationships with caring adults who can provide guidance and model appropriate behavior may never have the opportunity to develop the relationship skills necessary for healthy adult relationships or for becoming good parents.

I wonder if this emotional immaturity / inability to form relationships could be a factor in the SAHD epidemic?

[polecat]

The really scary part is, people keep asking me why his behavior is getting "worse". By "worse", they mean he no longer huddles on the couch, too scared to move. That's a terrifying definition of "good".

But this is what they think good children are! A child who is seen and not heard is good. A child who stands stock-still until his/her parents tell him/her to move is good. A children who never questions is good. A child who is essentially a lump without any personality, beliefs or opinions of his/her own is GOOD.

Kids are supposed to move, they're supposed to ask questions, they are supposed to interact with the larger world, they are supposed to question their parents and other authority -- really! -- they are supposed to have opinions, thoughts, and feelings of their own. They are supposed to be people.

Fundy children are thought of as less than human. They are treated as less than human. Is it any wonder, then, that so many grow up stunted?

[browngrl]

I think "blanket training" is awful. It crushes a child's spirt. The child may be easier to deal with but at what cost? I hate that fundies are willing to trade ease for joy and creativity and independence.

I don't have children but I do have rescued animals. When we first got the animals (some from horrible situations) they did not make a sound and they did little but cower in their beds or hide in some quiet spot. They were quiet and easy to manage and it broke my heart. As the animals grew confident in our love: then they found their voice, then they played and ran around. Some might call this behaviour "naughty" or bad but I saw it for what it was: trust that we would never hurt or abandon them no matter what. Yes it is harder to teach a pet or child that is confident enough to talk back but the rewards and results are much better. I would never be willing to go the fundie route and blanket train anyone or anything.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think "blanket training" is awful. It crushes a child's spirt. The child may be easier to deal with but at what cost? I hate that fundies are willing to trade ease for joy and creativity and independence.

I don't have children but I do have rescued animals. When we first got the animals (some from horrible situations) they did not make a sound and they did little but cower in their beds or hide in some quiet spot. They were quiet and easy to manage and it broke my heart. As the animals grew confident in our love: then they found their voice, then they played and ran around. Some might call this behaviour "naughty" or bad but I saw it for what it was: trust that we would never hurt or abandon them no matter what. Yes it is harder to teach a pet or child that is confident enough to talk back but the rewards and results are much better. I would never be willing to go the fundie route and blanket train anyone or anything.

Thats what you get when you make it so everyone has to have as many kids as their poor overworked genitalia can make-parents who raise children like people raise animals for food-crushed into a small space and their welfare isnt cared about as long as they live and make good meat/have genitals that work and are unused before marriage, and a brain that doesnt. Its like farming, but with kids (and obviously the end product is a broken, brainwashed adult, not sausages and bacon).

If everyone who had big families did because they love children and chose to have so many, and stop when they feel they cant cope with any more kids, there would be less large families, but more children from large families who had a great childhood where they werent abused, then grow up to be healthy, fully functioning adults.

But yeah, I would rather have happy, loud children who ask why all the time, and play, and are sometimes naughty or in a bad mood than a frightened, broken spirited little thing who just sits there too terrified to move.

[RosyDaisy]

Blanket training is just one of many methods that teaches blind obedience and instills fear. And that fear isn't the fear of God. It's the fear of being beaten.

[latraviata]

I was thinking about a book I read (Ghosts from the Nursery) as well as several studies showing the brain undergoes massive neural growth before age 2. The more stimulating the environment, the more a very young child's neurons grow, setting them up to be more curious and intelligent later in life.

In order to grow neurons, a baby or very young child needs to have a lot of objects and environments to explore and play, and they need a strong bond with one carer and lots of talking to and playing with them one-on-one.

Fundies already lack in the bonding and time for the kid aspects. But is it also possible that beating a baby or young child when they reach for/explore/try to play with things, and forcing them to sit still (stay on a blanket, etc.) would, by restricting their stimulation, mean less neural growth? The child has no options to grow more later, since the brain is only "plastic" at a very young age. That would mean they're stuck with "stunted" brains for the rest of their lives.

I know that SODRT isn't usually very good, but could my hypothesis explain why:

1. Some fundies just seem dumb, even if you take into account a lack of real education; and

2. Young fundies (e.g. the Lost Girls) seem developmentally delayed.

I'd love to see brain scans of kids who grew up in fundie megafamilies vs. normal people. And IQ tests. Could there be an actual neurological difference?

What do you guys think?

According to my son aka Cuteneurorad who is a neuro-radiologist, no you can't see that on a brain scan. Brain function can be tested but that is another field of exerpertise and a lot of these studies are still in an experimental phase and are for now still inconclusive.

[dairyfreelife]

But this is what they think good children are! A child who is seen and not heard is good. A child who stands stock-still until his/her parents tell him/her to move is good. A children who never questions is good. A child who is essentially a lump without any personality, beliefs or opinions of his/her own is GOOD.

Kids are supposed to move, they're supposed to ask questions, they are supposed to interact with the larger world, they are supposed to question their parents and other authority -- really! -- they are supposed to have opinions, thoughts, and feelings of their own. They are supposed to be people.

Fundy children are thought of as less than human. They are treated as less than human. Is it any wonder, then, that so many grow up stunted?

Indeed, which I think makes for one shitty childhood and life, but it is I, who thinks abortion isn't bad, that hates children. Go figure. :roll:

[lemonhead]

Blanket training is just one of many methods that teaches blind obedience and instills fear. And that fear isn't the fear of God. It's the fear of being beaten.

This is true, to an extent. Blanket training and other fundy discipline techniques are just garden-variety physical and emotional abuse with a new twist: the extra horror of spiritual abuse. So the kids that grow up in fundy families may display many of the same difficulties and/or pathologies as kids who are abused or neglected in secular families, but with the added destruction of having their experiences wrapped up in judgment and eternal damnation.

I grew up in this, so it's a little odd to read about it being discussed on a board :) but I think I can also offer some personal (as opposed to statistical) perspective. These kids may have impulse control issues or developmental displays, or end up with a lower IQ than their potential, or suffer complex PTSD. But if they can escape fundamentalism, they can also overcome many of those challenges, with time and therapy and hard work. I am a functioning member of society, in a stable long-term marriage, with a successful career, a graduate degree, and two lovely, only slightly-neurotic children. But I'll never know what my life could have been like in a normal family and AFAIK, I am also the only one in my group of 8-10 kids from my church who made it out and is living in the real world, free of oppressive religion. Others in my group had teen pregnancies, substance abuse problems, became runaways--one was even convicted of manslaughter and spent time in prison.

TL;DR: it is extremely difficult to overcome this upbringing, but it can be done if you can escape.

[lemonhead]

According to my son aka Cuteneurorad who is a neuro-radiologist, no you can't see that on a brain scan. Brain function can be tested but that is another field of exerpertise and a lot of these studies are still in an experimental phase and are for now still inconclusive.

There have been MRI studies done on people with histories of trauma that show differences in hippocampal volume as compared to "normals." So I would be curious about whether we might see the same sorts of differences in people who grew up with blanket training/fundy discipline--if that causes the same sort of neurological damage as general abuse and neglect.

[J'ean Skirt]

I think "blanket training" is awful. It crushes a child's spirt. The child may be easier to deal with but at what cost? I hate that fundies are willing to trade ease for joy and creativity and independence.

I don't have children but I do have rescued animals. When we first got the animals (some from horrible situations) they did not make a sound and they did little but cower in their beds or hide in some quiet spot. They were quiet and easy to manage and it broke my heart. As the animals grew confident in our love: then they found their voice, then they played and ran around. Some might call this behaviour "naughty" or bad but I saw it for what it was: trust that we would never hurt or abandon them no matter what. Yes it is harder to teach a pet or child that is confident enough to talk back but the rewards and results are much better. I would never be willing to go the fundie route and blanket train anyone or anything.

One of our cats is an adult feral. We did TNR with her, and she lived outside in the back yard for years. We made inside welcoming, safe and non-threatening and eventually she decided that this whole outside thing was bunk and she was moving in.

She is, to put it mildly, the pushiest most spoiled cat of our group. Some of it is because she was a successful feral (raised 2 kittens we also trapped and tamed) but some of it is because in our quest to make inside happy and safe, we basically gave her no limits. She wanted to explore, interact, whatever, she was allowed to. She's not bad, she just thinks the world revolves around her.

It's "naughty" in that she is our dominant cat and pushes both the other cats and us around. But we love it. The first time we saw her she was peeking into our kitchen and ran away when she saw us look at her. Now, she follows us around, sleeps between us at night and even demands pets and laps from visitors. The difference between a cat that absolutely DEMANDS petting and attention and a cat that was too scared to be looked at is awesome.

[lawlifelgbt]

Lemonhead: I didn't mean to imply that you were dumb! Anyone who escapes gets massive respect from my end. But, as you said, you had some deficient areas and issues to work through. I'm sure you're very intelligent, but certainly you would have been able to demonstrate/develop/use that as a child better if you hadn't been blanket trained.

"Stupid" may have been poor wording in the title on my part, but "neurologically stunted" wouldn't fit in the title- character limits, bah! I also thought this might get the thread more attention, and I wasn't sure what wording would be best. I apologize for my insensitivity.

Note: I'm a law student, not a med or psych student. However, during school breaks (which is for another two weeks here), and any spare moment, I enjoy reading on my own (law school hasn't quite killed that yet for me, as it does for a lot of the students). For the past year or so, my reading has been mostly on various nonfiction areas of interest, including neurology and psychology. It changes all the time! Right now, I've read "Nothing to Envy" (2009 book about daily life in the North Korean dictatorship), "God Believes in Love: What God Has to Say About Gay Marriage" (a book affirming you can be openly gay and Christian, and have relationships too!) and I have been wanting to read "Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays vs. Christians Debate." When you're buried in statutes, looking into altogether different subjects is a nice break!

[RosyDaisy]

Whatever happened to play pens as means of keeping baby safe while Mommy is busy doing housework?

[julie paradox]

I believe that play pens are now considered cruel by some people.

[apple1]

I believe that play pens are now considered cruel by some people.

Nearly anything can be taken to an extreme.

I'm Grandma to a 2 year old, and we babysit her about 3 out of 4 weekends while Mama and Daddy work. I have a pack-n-play, and use it APPROPRIATELY. She uses it to take her nap. I also occasionally use it for a time out, if time out is required. (She IS 2).

I think it is entirely inappropriate to confine a child large amounts of time to a pack-n-play. Kids learn by exploring their environment (safely, of course). And not being able to explore also creates frustration for the child.

[lemonhead]

Lemonhead: I didn't mean to imply that you were dumb! Anyone who escapes gets massive respect from my end. But, as you said, you had some deficient areas and issues to work through. I'm sure you're very intelligent, but certainly you would have been able to demonstrate/develop/use that as a child better if you hadn't been blanket trained.

No, I didn't take it that way at all :) No worries. ITA that my upbringing has massively influenced my ability to cope with everyday life; even in the absence of actual cognitive damage, just dealing with the emotional debris can make it difficult for people raised in this environment to simply focus on things like school and work. I think I'm just lucky: my shrink always said I survived through intelligence and sheer stubbornness :lol: I think resilience is a nicer word, but I'll take what I can get.

[lemonhead]

I believe that play pens are now considered cruel by some people.

Calling playpens cruel is, IMO, a statement that lacks in nuance. We used them occasionally for naptime or a few minutes when I couldn't watch the babies closely. The thing is, we used it to protect the babies rather than punish them. The walls of the playpen were there because we didn't expect an infant or crawler to be able to watch out for themselves or exercise the self-discipline to sit in one place--completely opposite from blanket-training. But I guess anything can be taken to extremes.

[lemurknits]

Nearly anything can be taken to an extreme.

I'm Grandma to a 2 year old, and we babysit her about 3 out of 4 weekends while Mama and Daddy work. I have a pack-n-play, and use it APPROPRIATELY. She uses it to take her nap. I also occasionally use it for a time out, if time out is required. (She IS 2).

I think it is entirely inappropriate to confine a child large amounts of time to a pack-n-play. Kids learn by exploring their environment (safely, of course). And not being able to explore also creates frustration for the child.

What happened to the kind that blocks off a fairly bog portion of a room ala the one used on the TV show Rugrats? Those seem more fair/fun to kids, while still keeping them from running off.

[lemonhead]

Those seem more fair/fun to kids, while still keeping them from running off.

LOL. I read this as, "while still keeping the mom from running off."

I have those days sometimes, where I need to be kept from running off :lol:

[latraviata]

There have been MRI studies done on people with histories of trauma that show differences in hippocampal volume as compared to "normals." So I would be curious about whether we might see the same sorts of differences in people who grew up with blanket training/fundy discipline--if that causes the same sort of neurological damage as general abuse and neglect.

According to son, these particular studies are controversial and there is serious doubt among scientists about the reliability of studies like this one.

I am only parroting what Cuteneurorad says. So, don't blame the messenger :( :(

[TrueRebel1]

Wow, this is interesting. I am close to a little 3 year old boy who's the firstborn (of 3). His parents idolize the Duggars and their type of childtraining. I don't know how much they've used blanket-training, etc. per se, but I do know they're constantly telling him "No! Don't touch that" or "No! Stand here and don't move." The parents pretty much don't allow him to act like a 3 year old. Now, I'm the last person to condone out-of-hand behavior from a kid -- there are limits --but when you're at the park with family and friends, for goodness sake, let the kid run around free without constant telling him "No" and making him stay in the stroller. This boy does not interact well even with people he knows. Most other 3 yr olds can carry a conversation with me but he avoids eye contact and doesn't seem to listen when I talk to him. Makes me sad. :cry: His parents are intelligent people, so I wouldn't be surprised if your theory is true.