The Rebelution Weighs in on Male Modesty (blahblahblah)

[treehugger]

So, the Rebelution has an article up on "The Other Side of Modesty" (therebelution.com/blog/2013/06/the-other-side-of-modesty/#.UcutI5UTszY) - which is actually impressive considering their track record of woman shaming (the Modesty survey, anyone?). The comments under the article are what caught my eye though:

Well, I'm a guy (notice nearly all the commenters are girls!). I'd actually only been vaguely aware of girls perhaps lusting after me (lusting after other guys, yes, me, no). More like me hoping I look good, but not necessarily "sexy." I am a firm believer that what you put out as bait is what the fish (the girls, or if you are a girl, the guys) will bite at. If I put out Mr. Sexybadboy, then girls who want Mr. Sexybadboy will bite - and I don't want that type of girl. I want the type of girl who wants Mr. Intelligentstablegoofyman, since that is pretty much who I am for the most part (my stability is not across the board, but better than most). So I don't dress like a bad boy, showing off skin and undies. I dress like me, which, according the loose criteria put forward in this article and the comments, would be modest. I guess while I think I'm quite good-looking, I don't have the kind of self-image that even considers the possibility that girls might "like" me for my looks alone, however I present them.

However, someone brought up shirts and going shirtless, pointing out that many guys at water parks and pools wear shirts. The commenter seemed to think that this is a sign of modesty. It isn't. Nine times out of ten or more it is a sign of insecurity. I've talked to teenage guys and was one up until a few days ago. If they wear a shirt in the water, it is because they think their stomach is fat or their chest weak. Personally, I used to wear a shirt at the pool or beach because I have a build that is of average-ish strength but unimpressive looks. My forearm is mostly skin and bone. My biceps are the size of some of my friends' forearms. Not too long ago you could count my ribs. Again, average-ish strength but packed into a very wiry frame. I turned out to be much stronger than a guy with a more traditional muscular "manly" build just recently, which surprised the daylights out of him. But yeah, I was insecure, so I wore a shirt to hide my apparent weakness.

Only recently have I gotten comfortable not wearing a shirt, mostly because my chest has finally filled out some and is now a bit more "manly" (my arms are still sticks). I haven't shed the shirt to attract the girls, but simply because swimming is easier without it and I am now comfortable with my body. I doubt that any girl would go goo-goo over my underweight build and pitted against half the guys out there (or more than half) I would get crushed. The point is that I wore the shirt in the water to not scare off the girls (or appear weak to my friends) and that I shed the shirt because I stopped caring so much.

So when people bring up attitude, yes, I think that is the main thing. Of course going around au natural or in a mankini is immodest (and gross). Little European Speedo swimsuits are probably immodest as well (and gross). I think wearing swimming trunks with no shirt is fine (and not gross). But shirt or no shirt, or tight shirt or loose shirt, is beside the point. It seems that the main thing is how a guy carries himself and for what reason he wears or does not wear a shirt to the pool and so on.

I wore a shirt to be more attractive, to be honest. And I stopped wearing one because I started feeling more comfortable and stopped caring so much. Is either immodest? I don't think so. Are my reasons for not wearing a shirt to the pool better than my reasons for wearing a shirt? Yes.

The double standards being at the bolded. Yes dude - maybe girls like to wear bikini's because they want to be more attractive and are comfortable with who they are, not so they could make every man within a mile lust - did that thought ever occur to you?

And, another guy pipes in:

yup- generally guys who cover up around a pool or at the beach are insecure and timid!- guys are not always thinking about girls ( people keep assuming that- especially here) we have our own lives to live- everything is not about girls.

ya think? As a woman I would just like to say that I also have my own life to live. And not everything is all about the MENZ either!

[oil]

The double standards being at the bolded. Yes dude - maybe girls like to wear bikini's because they want to be more attractive and are comfortable with who they are, not so they could make every man within a mile lust - did that thought ever occur to you?

Oops, im guilty for this one. I like to make the men lust after me when I wear my bikini. ;)

[treehugger]

Oops, im guilty for this one. I like to make the men lust after me when I wear my bikini. ;)

:lol: Rock on girl! I was just using his argument against him to make a point.

[oil]

:lol: Rock on girl! I was just using his argument against him to make a point.

I know, :lol: and hes a fool! Or moron or stupid, I dont know what word in English is correct one of vocabulary to use for him. I have to look on the translate app.

[desertvixen]

I haven't shed the shirt to attract the girls, but simply because swimming is easier without it and I am now comfortable with my body.

And God forbid that we allow women and girls to do that (ie, be comfortable).

Because these guys aren't just against bikinis - they're against suits that allow women to be comfortable, because that means "immodest" somehow.

So when people bring up attitude, yes, I think that is the main thing.

But, even when women say we want to be comfortable, you KNOW we secretly want you to lust after us! Got it.

[Anise]

If a girl had written it. . .

Only recently have I gotten comfortable not wearing a shirt over my swimsuit, mostly because my bust has finally filled out some and is now a bit more "womanly" (my arms are still flabby). I haven't shed the shirt to attract the guys, but simply because swimming is easier without it and I am now comfortable with my body. I doubt that any guy would go goo-goo over my un-curvy figure and pitted against half the girls out there (or more than half) I would get crushed. The point is that I wore the shirt in the water to not scare off the guys (or appear weak to my friends) and that I shed the shirt because I stopped caring so much.

So when people bring up attitude, yes, I think that is the main thing. Of course going around au natural or in a g-strings is immodest (and gross). Little string bikinis are probably immodest as well (and gross). I think wearing bikinis is fine (and not gross). But two piece or swimdress is beside the point. It seems that the main thing is how a girl carries herself and for what reason she wears a bikini, tankini, etc. to the pool and so on.

I wore a swimdress to be more attractive, to be honest. And I stopped wearing one because I started feeling more comfortable and stopped caring so much. Is either immodest? I don't think so. Are my reasons for wearing a bikini to the pool better than my reasons for wearing a swimdress? Yes.

I don't think they would have published it.

[uber frau]

In this country (of heathens) men (even real, manly ones) tend to cover up because of the skin cancer risk. The ones who hang about shirtless are likely to be arrogant wankers who are enamored with themselves and/or trying to prove their own masculinity. (Sounds a bit like the average male readership of rebelution really).

[Carla Bruni]

Um, I don't think a bikini makes me more "attractive" - I just want to wear as little as possible while swimming, because a) wet fabric is gross b) I love being tan c) I hate that slurpy sound one-pieces make against your stomach d) I do not live under Sharia for a reason, so burkinis are out. But yes, the hypocrisy is amazing. For the record, yeah, I'm sure a shapewear one-piece would hide my muffin top better than my string bikini, but I have no fucks to give in this regard, sorry :D

[debrand]

If a girl had written it. . .

I don't think they would have published it.

Will you try to put it in their comment section? It is worth a try and they might let it go through. I'd like to see how they react.

It is as if they really can't put their own self in another person's position. They just don't have the empathy to walk a mile in someone else's shoes

[uber frau]

^^^^But MEN because BIBLE.

[JesusFightClub]

Oops, im guilty for this one. I like to make the men lust after me when I wear my bikini. ;)

Quite right :dance:

It would have the opposite effect if I did, unfortunately, but I say if you got it, flaunt it.

Sexual attraction and wanting others to be sexually attracted to you is a natural feeling so I don't know what repressing it is supposed to do with holiness. Surely things like "Nike!" and averting one's gaze actually makes the whole business more pervy, not less.

[freesarah88]

This comment by Amy F was golden:

Thank you, Brett, for getting this conversation going.

Do you want this to be like the tips guys gave girls on the modesty survey? I have a bunch of advice, so I'll just kinda get this rolling here.

Ladies, please feel free to jump in here!

- A well tailored suit is pretty much to women what lingerie is to men. Sexy sexy. So avoid those.

- Flannel shirts should pretty much never be worn, especially if you're going to leave ANY buttons undone.

- If you must take off a coat or a hoodie, maybe you can find a hallway or something to do so out of sight. One of us women might picture you taking off your actual shirt.

- Baseball caps are especially flattering on most men, and often draw more attention to your facial features and lips than if you hadn't worn one at all. Maybe stick to those fisherman style hats if you absolutely need a hat.

- No taking your dogs on walks. The way you move while you're holding that leash... mmm. And NO playing with your dog in the park! When you throw a stick or ball, your muscles flex and it's really distracting.

- Do not fix things, if you can possibly avoid it, in front of me. Especially if you have to use a hammer or climb a ladder. Draws a lot of attention to your body. And on the subject of tools, what are you thinking, wearing your tool belts AROUND your WAIST? I mean, I'm supposed to be careful about where my seat belt or even my purse strap lays.

- Tall men: this is an automatic turn on for some women (myself included). Just the fact that you're tall. Maybe you can slouch a bit when you walk around. Good posture draws attention to your stature.

- Lifting things: Try to avoid lifting... well, anything, really, in front of women. You looking strong in any way gets me all bothered.

- Don't smile at babies. Huge stumbling block.

Thanks, you guys!! It's so helpful.

I am a little bit confused, though. You said that instead of modesty being something women do for men, it should be something

people do for each other... but not because of lust. And actually for

God. Not each other. So do it for God because you wouldn't want to shame

your body. Would shaming it be by others looking at it? And probably lusting?

[Beammeup]

Two things I find sexy as hell: military dress uniforms and a guy in a tux with a real bow tie untied hanging around his neck. Think George Clooney. Sexy.

[slickcat79]

Two things I find sexy as hell: military dress uniforms and a guy in a tux with a real bow tie untied hanging around his neck. Think George Clooney. Sexy.

I like that look too :D

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I've written about what women WON'T find attractive here: http://hopewellmomschoolreborn.blogspot ... women.html

I'm guilty o f loving chest hair--the current waxing thing really depresses me! lol.....TMI

[LucySnowe]

I like that look too :D

I'm not sure this look is modest. I think I'd better study this picture for a loooooong time and decide whether I think he's being immodest or not. Because I wouldn't want to make any snap decisions.

*wipes drool from keyboard*

Alas, I think the only day I'm getting Mr Snowe into a tuxedo is the day one of gets nominated for an Academy Award, and that ain't happening.

[rward]

I know, :lol: and hes a fool! Or moron or stupid, I dont know what word in English is correct one of vocabulary to use for him. I have to look on the translate app.

Fool, moron or stupid would work equally well. (I think I'll create my own app "Insult like an American in 5 days or your money back!!")

Yesterday, I walked by two teenaged boys wearing shorts and no shirts. At first, I was all "ooh, that one on the right" then I realized that the one on the right was maybe 16, at most, and felt really skeevy and gross, because I'm old enough to be his mother.

Did I blame the boy in question for making me look and then feel skeevy? Of course not. I averted my eyes, reminded myself I'm 37 and walked on.

There's a lesson there, boys.

[MamaJunebug]

Old, ollllllld feminist here, with just a suggestion:

Can we stop referring to females as "girls" when we refer to males as "men"?

Gals/guys, cool.

Boys/girls, okay too.

Men/women, great.

Women/boys, ick.

Men/girls, triple ick (because I'm female).

Just a peeve, a small thing, but they do add up.

Thank ya luv ya.

[JesusFightClub]

Fool, moron or stupid would work equally well. (I think I'll create my own app "Insult like an American in 5 days or your money back!!")

Yesterday, I walked by two teenaged boys wearing shorts and no shirts. At first, I was all "ooh, that one on the right" then I realized that the one on the right was maybe 16, at most, and felt really skeevy and gross, because I'm old enough to be his mother.

Did I blame the boy in question for making me look and then feel skeevy? Of course not. I averted my eyes, reminded myself I'm 37 and walked on.

There's a lesson there, boys.

Totally. The way it goes is:

Person: *thinking* Whoa! Inappropriate thought!

Person: *thinking* Hmm, I just had an inappropriate thought. That's OK because I'll never do anything about it. Thoughts, eh? Pfft.

Person: *smiles in a friendly manner at the person they have just had an inappropriate thought about*

Person *walks on and continues their life*

Is this rocket science?

[Hane]

Oh, the cast of my friendly local community theater would make these jag-offs (of both sexes) blow a lobe. The play has lots of costume changes, and people are stripping and re-dressing in front of each other with wild abandon. The gentlemen have been regarding the ladies with all due decorum, and vice versa. Could be because I am old enough to have given birth to every last one of 'em. And some of these gentlemen are darn easy on the eyes, so I just let any passing appreciation waft away. Oops: the hottest of 'em all is young enough to be my grandson. Ai ai ai.

[oil]

Surely things like "Nike!" and averting one's gaze actually makes the whole business more pervy, not less.

I agree!!!!

[desertvixen]

Two things I find sexy as hell: military dress uniforms and a guy in a tux with a real bow tie untied hanging around his neck. Think George Clooney. Sexy.

You and me both. A regular tie (untied) and a button-down shirt also works nicely...

[tenth muse]

I loved the comment about men smiling at babies.I just melt. And then think immodestly about the fellow. But it's all his fault for defrauding me, of course.

[EmiGirl]

Totally. The way it goes is:

Person: *thinking* Whoa! Inappropriate thought!

Person: *thinking* Hmm, I just had an inappropriate thought. That's OK because I'll never do anything about it. Thoughts, eh? Pfft.

Person: *smiles in a friendly manner at the person they have just had an inappropriate thought about*

Person *walks on and continues their life*

Is this rocket science?

Except for fundies thinking it is as bad as actually doing the act.

[ems]

This comment by Amy F was golden:

Perfect!

I'd add to this list, along with the dog walking and smiling at babies, that never ever should a man be seen with an animal. Period. Way too much of a stumbling block for me.

Also, for those who think pants reveal too much on a woman....well, anatomically, they are much more revealing on a man! So maybe men should just wear robes...you know, like Jesus did? Definitely no kilts though! Way too much defrauding potential!