Who is Creepier/more harmful - Maxwell vs Pearl

[Justme]

How many kids does mike have? Ages? Married? Jobs? Any SAHD?

[hoipolloi]

How many kids does mike have? Ages? Married? Jobs? Any SAHD?

Five kids, all "married," 20+ grandchildren. The 3 daughters are officially SAHMs, the 2 sons are contractors & may have other businesses. Except for the oldest daughter (Rebekah, "married" to Gabe Anast), the kids all live in & around the same part of TN as Mike & Debi.

[Just_Jane]

Both are harmful in their own way. One through physical punishment and the other through isolation. One leaves bruises and the other is more mentally abusive. I'd say the Pearl is more harmful due to having more people who actually believe that tripe.

[Mela99]

He's still a scumbag and quasi-rapist in my mind, but Pearl gets a little point from me if he was knocking Stevehovah.

[debrand]

Five kids, all "married," 20+ grandchildren. The 3 daughters are officially SAHMs, the 2 sons are contractors & may have other businesses. Except for the oldest daughter (Rebekah, "married" to Gabe Anast), the kids all live in & around the same part of TN as Mike & Debi.

Rebekah, Gabe(not her husband), Nathan, Shoshanna and Shalom

Nathan and his wife run an online coffee company while Shoshanna sells herbs. I imagine that they also share in some of the profits of the site, No Greater Joy.

All but one of his children are living in common-law-marriages. I don't know which one went against Daddy Pearl and legally married their spouse

Shalom's husband actually has a job as a auto mechanic and metal artist

The link to Nathan's coffee store is below. I wonder how you start an online coffee business.

canecreekcoffee.com/

These are Shoshanna's online businesses

The Bulk Herb Store, Shoshanna Gardens, and Well Tell Me.

[Justme]

Rebekah, Gabe(not her husband), Nathan, Shoshanna and Shalom

Nathan and his wife run an online coffee company while Shoshanna sells herbs. I imagine that they also share in some of the profits of the site, No Greater Joy.

All but one of his children are living in common-law-marriages. I don't know which one went against Daddy Pearl and legally married their spouse

Shalom's husband actually has a job as a auto mechanic and metal artist

The link to Nathan's coffee store is below. I wonder how you start an online coffee business.

canecreekcoffee.com/

These are Shoshanna's online businesses

The Bulk Herb Store, Shoshanna Gardens, and Well Tell Me.

How did they kid meet their spouses? Did they follow the Steve Maxwell "let the spouse fall out of the sky onto our doorstop" method?

[Justme]

This commentary sure looks like it's aimed at Steve (nogreaterjoy.org/video/the-balanced-patriarch-our-job-is-to-turn-them-loose/):

There's also this article from NGJ (nogreaterjoy.org/articles/patriarchal-dysfunctional-families-part-2/?topic_slug=teens) which is a follow-up to this one (nogreaterjoy.org/articles/cloistered-homeschool-syndrome/?topic_slug=teens):

I think JimBoob and Mullet Duggar should read his article!

[longskirts]

The Pearls are worse because of how vocally they advocate violence against children. The Maxwells don't seem so bent on physical harm. While the Maxwell children are stagnating, they are adults who can choose to leave if they want. Little kids being beaten per the Pearls' instructions can't just get up and leave.

[nellautumngirl]

Apart from the death of the three children, I would also go with Mike. He gave his children a partially happy childhood and later allowed them to marry and move out. Maybe on some level he is sometimes proud of them being successful or even enjoys their company? I don't know. It must be hell having Steve as a father.

[lilith]

I'm sure the Maxwells beat their children, they are just too middle class and polite to talk about it in detail like the Pearls do. Just like I'm sure Teri is every bit as expected to satisfy Steve's sexual whims as Debi is Michael's, it's just that the Maxwells speak in polite euphemisms about back rubs, where as the Pearls use more direct language.

[miffy]

Pearl is much worse!

But Steve is educated and not a bearded hillbilly. He should know better.

[miffy]

Also there is a jab at people who spend all their time focused on something like idols in a pearl book I purchased for a few dollars on amazon. It seems like it could be directed at Steve. I'll copy pasta when I get home and also upload the book for those who are interested (shhh!)

[desertvixen]

Michael Pearl - more harmful, as in children have actually died.

I would rank Steve as creepier though.

[hoipolloi]

Rebekah, Gabe(not her husband), Nathan, Shoshanna and Shalom

Nathan and his wife run an online coffee company while Shoshanna sells herbs. I imagine that they also share in some of the profits of the site, No Greater Joy.

All but one of his children are living in common-law-marriages. I don't know which one went against Daddy Pearl and legally married their spouse

Shalom's husband actually has a job as a auto mechanic and metal artist

The link to Nathan's coffee store is below. I wonder how you start an online coffee business.

canecreekcoffee.com/

These are Shoshanna's online businesses

The Bulk Herb Store, Shoshanna Gardens, and Well Tell Me.

The legally married kid must be one of the sons because Mike Pearl said he'd never let one of his daughters get a state-issued marriage license. IIRC, Mike & Debi did not obtain SSNs for their kids either - will have to look that one up.

Also, IIRC, Rebekah & Gabe used to own the Well Tell Me business (maybe the herb store, too) but sold them to Shoshanna several years ago.

[thoughtful]

Difficult question. The only way I could answer it is to imagine which one of them would I have preferred as a father growing up. Reluctantly I would have say I would have preferred Michael Pearl. At least with him you are allowed a childhood and freedom. Yes you get the plumbing line, but you also get playing in creeks, climbing trees, digging in the mud and banging nails into a piece of wood, all things that are so much fun in childhood.

With Steve-o as your dad you get the emotion sucked out of you, you are never, ever alone, swimming in creeks and climbing trees will be out and of course young ladies will never be permitted to make mud pies or mess around with hammers and nails. Plus I'd like to bet you also get the plumbing line at Chez Maxwell too as they support the Pearls child training methods.

I doubt if your being allowed to do "boy things" would last long in Pearl's world, either -- from TTUAC:

The mother should always keep in mind that she is molding a future wife and mother. Challenge them with sewing, cooking, cleaning, learning about everything. Let them get their hands in the dough (unless the child training teacher is coming for dinner). From the time they are big enough to tell a tale, they should be talking about what "Mama and I did today."

Fathers, by the time the boys can follow you around, they should be "helping" you work. My boys were climbing through sawdust and stumbling over briars before they could see over the tops of my boots. They were bringing firewood in when they had to team up and roll it through the door. If you leave your sons for the women to rear, don't be surprised if at sixteen they act more like daughters.

Forget about buying them toys. Some functional toys are desirable, like a metal truck for the little boys, or a tricycle or bicycle for the older ones. Little girls can profit from play dishes and baby dolls (which resemble real babies). Just don't cultivate their covetous inclinations by teaching them to expect to have their lusts indulged.

When the time came for our oldest daughter to go off to Bible College, she called her 9- and 11-year-old sisters in and passed on to them their responsibilities. As I watched her train them in the various chores, which included laundry, cooking and kitchen clean up, I knew I had done something right. It was a change of command, a very sober and thrilling occasion for the younger girls.

[thoughtful]

Rebekah, Gabe(not her husband), Nathan, Shoshanna and Shalom

Nathan and his wife run an online coffee company while Shoshanna sells herbs. I imagine that they also share in some of the profits of the site, No Greater Joy.

All but one of his children are living in common-law-marriages. I don't know which one went against Daddy Pearl and legally married their spouse

Shalom's husband actually has a job as a auto mechanic and metal artist

The link to Nathan's coffee store is below. I wonder how you start an online coffee business.

canecreekcoffee.com/

These are Shoshanna's online businesses

The Bulk Herb Store, Shoshanna Gardens, and Well Tell Me.

This reminded me that I never did send the second page of my write-up on the Pearls to Curious for our SOTDRT.

So, I just did. I'm not the expert on them that debrand is, but I tried to include things I thought people would want to know, and I think it's accurate.

Here's the link to the first page:

http://freejinger.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=15988

And here's the content of the second page (mods, any unbroken links are to sites for which it's OK):

Michael and Debi Pearl were both raised in Memphis, Tennessee. The Pearls have been married since 1971, and have 5 children and 18 grandchildren.

Michael graduated from Mid-South Bible College in Memphis (now Victory University). He worked with Union Mission in Memphis for 25 years. They moved to rural Tennessee where they held Bible studies in local homes, and in prison.

They now feel that writing on child training and family relationships is their life’s work and calling.

Their children are:

Rebekah Anast – her partner is Gabe Anast, a web designer who decided to stop working altogether, and just run a now-defunct website, 7XSunday.. They have six children, Joseph Courage, Ryshoni Joy, Hannah Sunshine, Elijah Music, Chaiyah Eve and Alitsia Rin, and live, generally in abject poverty, in New Mexico.

They were sued by the Zuni Tribe, Navajo Nation, over water rights.

http://www.zunibasin.com/documents/2142.pdf

Rebekah had a blog, Dreaming Awake, on which she detailed bizarre and paranoid dreams that she felt were prophetic. She has written a book called The DaVinci Road. It is unclear what Gabe Anast is doing with his time.

Gabriel Pearl – his partner is Lori, and they are the parents of Jocelyn, Laife and Joshua Gabriel. The NGJ site describes him as a builder, and someone who employs and teaches many men, but is not clear about what he actually does. He does appear to own a business called "That BBQ Man."

Nathan Pearl – his partner is Zephyr, and they have four children. They own Cane Creek Coffee, but appear to be taking a break from that business, when last checked. He seems to be working for his parents a great deal: nogreaterjoy.org/author/nathan-pearl/

Shalom Brand – her partner is Justin Brand, who is described on NGJ as an auto mechanic and metal artist – they also appear to do a lot of work for the Pearls. Their children are Gracie, Laila Truth and Parker Ford.

nogreaterjoy.org/author/shalom-brand/

Shoshanna Easling – her partner is James Easling, who is described on NGJ as an inventor and builder. They are the owners of The Bulk Herb Store, Shoshanna Gardens, and Well Tell Me. Their children are Jeremiah James and Penelope Jane.

Other info:

Debi's best-known work is Created to Be His Helpmeet – an excerpt can be read here:

http://www.amazon.com/Created-Be-His-He ... hael+pearl

Debi's works also include books intended to teach children about "stranger danger" –

yellandtellbooks.com/

Don't miss the coloring pages!

Michael is a champion knife-thrower – apparently, there is no dress code for the sport:

http://i.imgur.com/Z7bqdbc.jpg

Amazon reviews of TTUAC -- whenever the controversy flares up, Mike sends followers there to write positive reviews – many of the positive reviewers have no other review history on Amazon, and are very vague about what they like in the book. Feel free to add your thoughts, if you've read the book at the link above:

http://www.amazon.com/Train-Up-Child-Mi ... Descending

Links:

Wikipedia on Michael Pearl:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pearl

Full list of products from NGJ:

nogreaterjoy.org/shop/catalog/seo_sitemap/product/

Sites critical of the Pearls:

http://whynottrainachild.com/

http://www.tulipgirl.com/index.php/cate ... debipearl/

http://www.quicksilverqueen.com/tag/michael-pearl/

Mudbrooker videos:

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMudbrook ... hael+pearl

http://mommylife.net/archives/mike_and_debi_p/

The Pearls on various subjects:

The NGJ article in which Michael recommends using flexible plumbing supply line to whip children:

nogreaterjoy.org/articles/questions-answered/

NGJ Youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/NGJMinistries

Mike demonstrating "taps" -

Bekah and Gabe's Youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ruLISng/videos?view=0

Sitting still in church:

nogreaterjoy.org/articles/sitting-still-in-church/

The Pearls advise others that social security numbers are not needed:

nogreaterjoy.org/wordpress/f/200002_March-April.pdf

NGJ post in which Pearl says adopted children from Liberia were "well-versed in all the dark arts of eroticism and ghastly perversion":

nogreaterjoy.org/articles/avoiding-vacuums/

Pearl claiming his children will be successful, and the bosses of those who are not raised by his methods:

pearlchildtraining.blogspot.com/2010/03/michael-pearl-laughs-at-critics.html

Why their children are not legally married:

nogreaterjoy.org/articles/the-wedding/

The Angry Child:

nogreaterjoy.org/articles/angry-child/

A book of Debi's, that was illustrated by Michael – the cover may give some insight into why he changed his major from art to religion:

michaeldebipearl.blogspot.com/2009/11/debi-pearls-listen-to-my-dream-becomes.html

A search of Shoshanna's Well Tell Me forum for references to TTUAC, that includes a post from Rebekah Anast about the Pearls having no particular opinion about birth control:

welltellme.com/discuss/index.php?action=search2

And, just because, a pic of the Pearls as a young couple, in matching bathing suits:

http://i.imgur.com/6NYCd.jpg

Other snarkees who advocate the Pearls:

Lori Alexander:

treasuresfromashoebox.blogspot.com/2010/07/haleys-prayer.html

Duggars recommending Pearl materials:

duggarfamily.com/content/amazon_blitz

http://astore.amazon.com/duggarfamily-2 ... 1892112000

http://astore.amazon.com/duggarfamily-2 ... F8&node=89

http://astore.amazon.com/duggarfamily-2 ... 1616440368

http://astore.amazon.com/duggarfamily-2 ... 1892112019

Bontragers:

bontragerfamilysingers.com/Links.html

David and Tim Bayly:

baylyblog.com/blog/2012/01/ugh-its-christianity-today-again-time-weighing-against-spanking

Sarah at Hearts Desire:

sarah-heartsdesire.blogspot.com/2011/09/to-train-up-child-book-review-and-my.html

Christian Hskubes:

hskubes.blogspot.com/2007/06/what-can-i-do-about-my-children.html

Tabby, of plaintorahkeeper – she took her blog post down, but here is the FJ thread about it:

http://freejinger.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9620

Tait and Lauren Zimmerman:

zimmermanfamilyalaska.blogspot.com/2010/10/parent-training.html

Brenda at The Family Revised:

familyrevised.blogspot.com/2007/07/just-some-things-before-we-go.html

[Jeneric Duggar]

They are both evil abusive shits but I agree with Miffy, Steve Maxwell is an educated man and should know better.

[Jana814]

Can someone tell me something about the Pearl children: Were they "married" in a church? Why r they against doing the whole legal marriage thing?

[thoughtful]

Can someone tell me something about the Pearl children: Were they "married" in a church? Why r they against doing the whole legal marriage thing?

Why their children are not legally married:

nogreaterjoy.org/articles/the-wedding/

[Melissa1977]

Pearls are worse because they seem to really enjoy hitting and seem to like suffering in general. Maxwells are more concerned about children safety and basic needs. Maxwells had never feed their children cat food, as Pearls did! I'm sure that if Steve had a daughter living in poverty with no electricity (like Rebekah Pearl), he'd try to help. They cleaned their pregnant daughters-in-law houses and babysit to let them rest, it shows a bit of love or respect if you compare to Pearls honeymoon or the sad Rebekah wedding (her husband spit the cake at her and stain the wedding dress).

I see Pearls focused in violence (even sexual violence) and Maxwells more focused in control. Both are bad, but they're differences.

[debrand]

Can someone tell me something about the Pearl children: Were they "married" in a church? Why r they against doing the whole legal marriage thing?

Because the state will eventually allow same sex marriage and the Pearls don't want to be connected to 'sodomites'.

Honestly, I couldn't make up that craziness.

[Patsy]

I'm sure the Maxwells beat their children, they are just too middle class and polite to talk about it in detail like the Pearls do. Just like I'm sure Teri is every bit as expected to satisfy Steve's sexual whims as Debi is Michael's, it's just that the Maxwells speak in polite euphemisms about back rubs, where as the Pearls use more direct language.

I'm actually pretty sure they didn't hit, weirdly enough. I can't find the reference to it, though.

They completely and utterly hobbled their children, though. I can't find words to express the horror of their situation.

[lilith]

I'm actually pretty sure they didn't hit, weirdly enough. I can't find the reference to it, though.

They completely and utterly hobbled their children, though. I can't find words to express the horror of their situation.

I actually recall Teri saying they spanked the boys when they were young, but I too am unable to find references.

[Patsy]

I actually recall Teri saying they spanked the boys when they were young, but I too am unable to find references.

Maybe they went through a period of not hitting, then? Hmm.

[Palimpsest]

Pearl or Maxwell?

It is like asking whether you'd rather be bitten by a rattle snake or a water moccasin. My apologies to the snakes for comparing them to these two men.

They are both very dangerous.

I think Pearl has been more effective spreading his message of abuse to date. Maxwell is small potatoes in comparison, and is probably jealous of Pearl's comparative fame.

I don't remember seeing references to the Maxwells beating their kids anywhere either. It doesn't mean they didn't, but it is inconsistent with his message today.

Steve portrays himself as a gentle, caring, listening, loving father and leader of his family. Somewhere, I'd have to find it on Dad's Corner, he says that he was "The Perfect Shepherd" caring for the "injured sheep," depressed Teri.