Neo Nazi father bans black nurse from looking after his baby

[Guest Anonymous]

Sex and race are treated differently in terms of healthcare (at least, in my experience). That's why hospital wards are segregated by sex but not race.

[meda]

I'm not sure what the difference is. You have the right to determine who will give you medical care. If you want women, you are within your right to request only women. Obviously this guy only wanted white people. Stupid in both cases, IMO, but essentially the same idea.

Now, should the hospital have rearranged schedules to go with his wishes? No way, not okay.

But the thing is, you don't have a unlimited right to determine who gives you care in a hospital. Particularly when the hospital violates federal anti discrimination laws to accommodate a racist request.

[wtylcf]

I think, once you've been discriminated against on the basis of race, you feel it. That's why don't think there's much of an argument in the idea that she would not want to care for a racist's baby. Similarly, I don't think the potential risks of allowing her to care for that baby (in terms of her exposure to racist abuse) are much of a factor. Most workplaces have some protocol in place to deal with situations of abuse. The hospital banned black nurses from working with this baby because of their race, that seems to be it - that's the whole thing.

Agreed. Yeah, if it were me, I would be upset that my employer thought it was more important to cater to a racist's wishes than allow me to do my job, that they would rather discriminate against me than stand up for me. If they thought the racist posed a threat to the black nurse, isn't there a protocol to deal with that - like, i don't know, calling the police to arrest him for threats of bodily harm? Sure, it may have been easier to de-escalate the situation for the hospital by catering to the guy's wishes, but that sure as hell doesn't make it the morally right thing to do. There should be no working environment where overt racism is tolerated and catered to as part of the job.

[anjulibai]

But the thing is, you don't have a unlimited right to determine who gives you care in a hospital. Particularly when the hospital violates federal anti discrimination laws to accommodate a racist request.

I'm not saying the hospital was right to rearrange the schedules, just that the guy is within his rights to say I don't want this person to care for my child. Which is not an unusual request in general.

The guy is a piece of shit to be sure, and I do hope the woman wins. The hospital should have done something else.

[OkToBeTakei]

I think, once you've been discriminated against on the basis of race, you feel it. That's why don't think there's much of an argument in the idea that she would not want to care for a racist's baby. Similarly, I don't think the potential risks of allowing her to care for that baby (in terms of her exposure to racist abuse) are much of a factor. Most workplaces have some protocol in place to deal with situations of abuse. The hospital banned black nurses from working with this baby because of their race, that seems to be it - that's the whole thing.

This whole thing is absolutely disgusting to me.

yewtree. I think you are correct.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... onths.html

Man who refused to be treated by black doctor jailed for six months

THIS is what should befall Mr Neo-nazi.

[Bloo]

Personally, as an American I think the "freedom of speech" thing has gotten a little extreme; I do wish hate speech and swastika tats were illegal.

[E Street Fan]

Personally, as an American I think the "freedom of speech" thing has gotten a little extreme; I do wish hate speech and swastika tats were illegal.

I hate to use the cliche, but that's really a slippery slope.

[yewchapel]

I hate to use the cliche, but that's really a slippery slope.

Sorry, protecting the right to use hate speech is less important than protecting minorities.

[yewchapel]

This whole thing is absolutely disgusting to me.

yewtree. I think you are correct.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... onths.html

THIS is what should befall Mr Neo-nazi.

Thanks for the link, LGBT hate speech law is what I'm more familiar with than race hate speech law.

[Childless]

I'm not sure what opinion to have on this one. Was this guy an ignorant twat? Yes. Should he have had his wishes granted? Yes. Was the hospital wrong in honoring his wishes? I don't think so. Was the hospital wrong when they rearranged shifts? Yes.

Certainly this hospital had nurses of at least two different races on each shift. I have yet to see a shift at a hospital (even the hospital in my little predominantly white town) with an entire shift of the same race. I find it hard to believe that the hospital didn't already have a white nurse on each shift that could have cared for the baby. Furthermore, the well being of the child should have been everyone's priority. If the child was sick enough to spend a month in the NICU, he/she was probably to sick to be transferred to another hospital, so telling the parents to go find another establishment if they wanted an all white nursing staff was not in the patient's best interest. Also, why would the hospital want to open itself up to possible litigation should something happen to the baby on the black nurse's watch? Why would the nurse want to even put herself in a position of possibly having a lawsuit filed against her? I would have been more than happy to pass this baby and his/her lunatic parents off to someone else.

I think the hospital was caught between a rock and a hard place. I'm sure they thought this guy was just as disgusting as we do, but he did have a right to decide who cared for his child so long as that person was already employed at the hospital.

[Bloo]

I hate to use the cliche, but that's really a slippery slope.

It doesn't have to be. Other Western countries seem to be getting on well enough. Fucks like Weather Front and the Westboro Baptist Church deserve legal consequences for the pain they've caused others; we preach zero tolerance for bullying in schoolchildren, but our government protects the practice for adults. That's massively fucked up. :x

[Childless]

It doesn't have to be. Other Western countries seem to be getting on well enough. Fucks like Weather Front and the Westboro Baptist Church deserve legal consequences for the pain they've caused others; we preach zero tolerance for bullying in schoolchildren, but our government protects the practice for adults. That's massively fucked up. :x

There is a way to meet halfway. For example, Westboro should have the right to say whatever disgusting thing they wish to say. They can distribute fliers, do interviews on radio and television, run advertisements, etc. They shouldn't have a right to congregate and scream at someone's funeral. There can still be a right to free speech while also having some rules of decency involved.

[E Street Fan]

It doesn't have to be. Other Western countries seem to be getting on well enough. Fucks like Weather Front and the Westboro Baptist Church deserve legal consequences for the pain they've caused others; we preach zero tolerance for bullying in schoolchildren, but our government protects the practice for adults. That's massively fucked up. :x

It's freedom of speech. I think Fred Phelps is scum, but it's his right to say the disgusting things he believes, no matter how uncomfortable it makes other people (including me). It's the right of free speech for neo-Nazis and people who use racial epithets to describe our president, along with every other bigot. And I said it's a slippery slope because what happens if somebody doesn't like what I have to say? Does that mean I could go to jail, too (or whatever punishment would be appropriate)?

I don't want to live in a country where freedom of speech is not sacrosanct, no matter how much I deplore what some people have to say.

[Bloo]

Australia doesn't allow hate speech, but it defines it. You're not likely to be jailed willy-nilly for opinions, but if you are in public and you broadcast hateful statements, you can be punished. Just like a bully in school.

[JesusFightClub]

I'm not sure what opinion to have on this one. Was this guy an ignorant twat? Yes. Should he have had his wishes granted? Yes. Was the hospital wrong in honoring his wishes? I don't think so. Was the hospital wrong when they rearranged shifts? Yes.

Certainly this hospital had nurses of at least two different races on each shift. I have yet to see a shift at a hospital (even the hospital in my little predominantly white town) with an entire shift of the same race. I find it hard to believe that the hospital didn't already have a white nurse on each shift that could have cared for the baby. Furthermore, the well being of the child should have been everyone's priority. If the child was sick enough to spend a month in the NICU, he/she was probably to sick to be transferred to another hospital, so telling the parents to go find another establishment if they wanted an all white nursing staff was not in the patient's best interest. Also, why would the hospital want to open itself up to possible litigation should something happen to the baby on the black nurse's watch? Why would the nurse want to even put herself in a position of possibly having a lawsuit filed against her? I would have been more than happy to pass this baby and his/her lunatic parents off to someone else.

I think the hospital was caught between a rock and a hard place. I'm sure they thought this guy was just as disgusting as we do, but he did have a right to decide who cared for his child so long as that person was already employed at the hospital.

What possible lawsuit could he file against her? "She was black, I asked specifically for no black women and then my baby got jaundice"? Would that not be laughed out of court?

I've just come out of the hospital and I certainly noticed shifts on my ward which were all white or all non-white. The shift on my second day in were all either black or Asian and if I had asked for only whites to treat me I would have been out of luck. It's a ridiculous request and should have been treated as such.

Also, what if the ward consultant doctor had been black? What then, withdraw the kid until a white consultant comes on shift? Demand the black doctor is sent home?

[yewchapel]

Australia doesn't allow hate speech, but it defines it. You're not likely to be jailed willy-nilly for opinions, but if you are in public and you broadcast hateful statements, you can be punished. Just like a bully in school.

Yes, exactly. I live in a country with hate speech laws and they are clearly defined, nobody gets put in prison just for saying something somebody else finds distasteful - but speech that harms minorities is punished.

[meda]

I think the hospital was caught between a rock and a hard place. I'm sure they thought this guy was just as disgusting as we do, but he did have a right to decide who cared for his child so long as that person was already employed at the hospital.

People keep saying this, and it baffles me. What right do hospital patients have to chose who treats them based on race? It keeps being put out there that the father had a "right" to chose which nurse cared for his kid based on skin color. I am reasonably familiar with patients rights and HIPPA, and I have never heard of such a thing.

[yewchapel]

People keep saying this, and it baffles me. What right do hospital patients have to chose who treats them based on race? It keeps being put out there that the father had a "right" to chose which nurse cared for his kid based on skin color. I am reasonably familiar with patients rights and HIPPA, and I have never heard of such a thing.

Neither have I and I don't understand it.

[E Street Fan]

Australia doesn't allow hate speech, but it defines it. You're not likely to be jailed willy-nilly for opinions, but if you are in public and you broadcast hateful statements, you can be punished. Just like a bully in school.

This isn't Australia. Maybe Australia has a better balance than the United States does, but I still prefer the US system.

[yewchapel]

This isn't Australia. Maybe Australia has a better balance than the United States does, but I still prefer the US system.

Are you a minority?

[dawbs]

I have mixed feelings on disallowing hate speech and the like...

But I think it's moot because I don't think that a measure to criminalize ANY form of speech, no matter how hateful, could gain traction in the US.

The 'best' I think that could be hoped for is 'fighting words' type legislation that means if you say certain things and someone punches you in the face in response, it's OK :)

(and given where that hospital is [i was at it once during my pregnancy when I was at risk/really sick], it would not at all surprise me if certain shifts are 'all *insert subgroup here*'.

I do get being able to say "I don't want that nurse/doctor/whomever working on me", but there comes a point when a facility is going to say "OK, well, then we will have to transfer you to another hospital, because we don't have male nurses who are Bill Gothard fearing CHristians on staff 24-7")

[outrunningzombies]

Recently a patient came in and was assigned a black attending (boss) doctor and Asian resident (new) doctor. The patient flipped out about not being treated by white doctors. We refused to change his doctors (it would have been very difficult for us, and we're used to telling assholes to shut up). He left against medical advice, to the sorrow of no one. I can see my hospital switching RNs if it was feasible, but we would not change shifts. I honestly think with a kid we'd be more likely to tell the father to STFU and ban him if he was a problem, but again, my hospital is used to very difficult patients and family members and less impressed by customer service scores.

If the black nurses sued because they had their shifts changed, I would totally do the same thing. The hospital should notbe discriminating against me because some asshole said so.

[E Street Fan]

Are you a minority?

I'm a woman of mixed ancestry who is an atheist. So yes, I'm a minority.

[Bloo]

What I don't get is that in the US, in public schools kids can get punished rather severely for bullying- most of which is entirely verbal and would be defined as hate speech. Kid can skip out of his high school graduation saying "White power! Fuck the f*gs, sp*cs, and n*ggers!" and people throw up their hands because free speech.

America: We Can Stop Bullies As Long As They're Minors!

[Guest Anonymous]

In terms of free speech, the answer seems to be 'because America magic!'. The existence of other countries (and laws against hate speech) doesn't seem to matter. America magic! America best!