"Periods of abstinence longer than the Bible permits" What?

[Trynn]

I've read Dickens, but who is Emily Zola and what did she write?

As to the verse in 1 Corinthians that someone mentioned a while back, I think context is required. At that time, or so I've read that some scholars believe, there was a big push to be abstinent in marriage. I don't remember why this was an issue, but I remember reading that Corinthians were either having lots and lots of sex with different partners, or no sex at all whatsoever, there was no middle ground. Paul is merely arguing that married couples should have sex as part of a healthy relationship. He is NOT suggesting that the couple should have sex all the time, or even on demand. This verse cannot be used as an argument that the woman must give in whenever the man wants. What Paul is saying is that it's not healthy to never have sex at all, period.

So.... I'm not sure what Zsu could possibly mean about "periods of abstinence longer than the bible permits."The bible here doesn't seem to say, "you can only abstain for this much time." it just says, "you CAN abstain for a time, but don't abstain forever."

As far as birth control, oh jeez, that woman has no idea how many women are on it for medical reasons, for one thing. For another, I think birth control prevents abortions. More birth control=less unwanted babies, less unwanted babies=less abortions. Ugh, don't these fundies ever THINK about these connections? That forcing everyone to abstain from BC would skyrocket the abortion rate (something they don't even want happening?)

Therefore, I think it is an act of charity to hand out free birth control. I don't know much about birth control methods (haven't had to worry about that yet and I identify as asexual anyway) but I totally support making pills free and free condoms and whatever.

Anyway, I think, as usual, Zu's talking out of her butt. And this time, she doesn't even have any real scripture to back it up!

[latraviata]

I've read Dickens, but who is Emily Zola and what did she write?

Emile Zola.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mile_Zola

[countressrascal]

Here is my response to her welfare statement-

You pay no income tax, yes you pay social security and medicare tax on PP income, due to him being self employed, however every year you recieve welfare in the form of an earned income tax credit due to your breeding and low earnings. So get off your high horse and realize that you do recieve welfare.

I bet that Count and I pay alot more income tax minus social security and medicare tax than PP earns in a year, 2 or 3 times.

[Beb]

Maybe she is such a twisted bitch because seriously, so would I be if I had to biblically procreate with that twat she lives with.

Why assume Zsu is a victim of her choice of lifestyle? If you read her latest blog addition, she makes it quite clear how much she loves and lierally thrives on procreating.

It's commonplace to put our take on her circumstances and interpret them from our own perspective. In Zsu'™s case, I believe it's off-base to see it that way. She LOVES being what she is.

[lilith]

Why assume Zsu is a victim of her choice of lifestyle? If you read her latest blog addition, she makes it quite clear how much she loves and lierally thrives on procreating.

It's commonplace to put our take on her circumstances and interpret them from our own perspective. In Zsu'™s case, I believe it's off-base to see it that way. She LOVES being what she is.

I disagree here. I think she is frantically justifying her life to everyone, most especially herself.

It's important to remember just how young she was when she met the PP. And that she almost immediately left her home, family and country to live with him, and because of his religious beliefs and later their paranoia about leaving their kids in anyone else's care, she has never made friends or associated with anyone without her husbands approval. He totally isolated her at a very young age, which is a classic abuser move.

I can kind of understand this, because in my late teens and early twenties I was very prone to buying into the lifestyles and beliefs of my partners. I was inexperienced and obviously impressed by the men I fell in love with, and I can understand how she got herself into this situation. And hers is a particularly difficult one to get out of, plus she hasn't been exposed to other people and other viewpoints as she matured.

She's obviously intelligent, and that's why I think she's so defensive of her life and so determined to prove to everyone that she's happy happy happy, and this is the best and the only way to live, to validate her decisions. She's so committed, in her husband's country with seven kids all very close together, questioning their beliefs would lead to having to make some very scary decisions, so she insists that she loves her life and defends it in every way as the only right way to live.

[lilith]

And even so, I doubt she'd be one of those giving to charity. I recall her once saying that the church is not an ATM. I do know that people try to take advantage of churches, but I don't think that's what she means. She's too high and mighty to give to anyone she thinks doesn't deserve help - and the list of those who wouldn't deserve help is pretty long.

She believes churches should only help their own congregations. So if you're not a churchgoer and fall on hard times, you're just screwed. It's what Jesus would do, you know.

I've noticed that Zsuzsanna and her husband rarely mention Jesus, especially compared to other fundies like the Maxwells and Duggars who mention him in every second sentence. They are much more focused on the Old Testament.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think Zsu is actually a very lonely miserable person, who hates the life she is in now so feels the need to violently justify her beliefs to others and act like she is so much better than everyone for sacrificing herself to a life of misery.

[PennySycamore]

I've read Dickens, but who is Emily Zola and what did she write?

Emile Zola.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mile_Zola

Thank you, latraviata, for posting that! Germinal was required reading in a Western civilization class I took years ago. It is just stunning

[latraviata]

Thank you, latraviata, for posting that! Germinal was required reading in a Western civilization class I took years ago. It is just stunning

[OkToBeTakei]

I disagree here. I think she is frantically justifying her life to everyone, most especially herself.

It's important to remember just how young she was when she met the PP. And that she almost immediately left her home, family and country to live with him, and because of his religious beliefs and later their paranoia about leaving their kids in anyone else's care, she has never made friends or associated with anyone without her husbands approval. He totally isolated her at a very young age, which is a classic abuser move.

I can kind of understand this, because in my late teens and early twenties I was very prone to buying into the lifestyles and beliefs of my partners. I was inexperienced and obviously impressed by the men I fell in love with, and I can understand how she got herself into this situation. And hers is a particularly difficult one to get out of, plus she hasn't been exposed to other people and other viewpoints as she matured.

She's obviously intelligent, and that's why I think she's so defensive of her life and so determined to prove to everyone that she's happy happy happy, and this is the best and the only way to live, to validate her decisions. She's so committed, in her husband's country with seven kids all very close together, questioning their beliefs would lead to having to make some very scary decisions, so she insists that she loves her life and defends it in every way as the only right way to live.

I was being facetious. But this is QFT.

[Levon]

I disagree here. I think she is frantically justifying her life to everyone, most especially herself.

It's important to remember just how young she was when she met the PP. And that she almost immediately left her home, family and country to live with him, and because of his religious beliefs and later their paranoia about leaving their kids in anyone else's care, she has never made friends or associated with anyone without her husbands approval. He totally isolated her at a very young age, which is a classic abuser move.

I can kind of understand this, because in my late teens and early twenties I was very prone to buying into the lifestyles and beliefs of my partners. I was inexperienced and obviously impressed by the men I fell in love with, and I can understand how she got herself into this situation. And hers is a particularly difficult one to get out of, plus she hasn't been exposed to other people and other viewpoints as she matured.

She's obviously intelligent, and that's why I think she's so defensive of her life and so determined to prove to everyone that she's happy happy happy, and this is the best and the only way to live, to validate her decisions. She's so committed, in her husband's country with seven kids all very close together, questioning their beliefs would lead to having to make some very scary decisions, so she insists that she loves her life and defends it in every way as the only right way to live.

I agree, lilith. Unless directly provoked, content people rarely feel the need to defend their lifestyle choices. She has an entire blog devoted to defending the number of children she has.

[Beb]

Personal life experiences form our perspectives, but to conclude that Zsu is a self righteous bitch because of her life choices based upon personal perspective is off-base. It's just as possible that Zsu's inherent bitch is what motivated her to make those choices. It's just as possible that she is not trying to justfy herself but that she is, indeed, a self righteous, judgmental bitch who feels superior.

So.......what came first--the influence of her choices or the inherent bitch?

I think the latter.

[OkToBeTakei]

Personal life experiences form our perspectives, but to conclude that Zsu is a self righteous bitch because of her life choices based upon personal perspective is off-base. It's just as possible that Zsu's inherent bitch is what motivated her to make those choices. It's just as possible that she is not trying to justfy herself but that she is, indeed, a self righteous, judgmental bitch who feels superior.

So.......what came first--the influence of her choices or the inherent bitch?

I think the latter.

Hard to know, but a very good point Beb.. Apart from obviously loving her kids, which i think she does. There is no excuse. She despite loving them is willing to bring them up in the hatred she easily displays.

It is a form of abuse that she would never accept if we were to point it out. But abuse it is.

[asinglevoice]

I think the inherent bitchiness was always there, but it's also important to remember that Zsu has noted, in one of her older "FAQ" posts, that the PP was much less conservative when they married than he is now. So in a sense, I'm not really sure she *did* know exactly what she was getting herself into. Not that that makes her any less horrid, but I think it's an interesting factoid.

[Jessica]

As far as birth control, oh jeez, that woman has no idea how many women are on it for medical reasons, for one thing. For another, I think birth control prevents abortions. More birth control=less unwanted babies, less unwanted babies=less abortions. Ugh, don't these fundies ever THINK about these connections? That forcing everyone to abstain from BC would skyrocket the abortion rate (something they don't even want happening?)

According to her, BC causes even more problems than it was supposed to help, oh, and it causes breast cancer...

[Beammeup]

Why is Zsu a female criticizing a male? Isn't that breaking the chain of command and putting her over a man?

Also, she's full of crap. I'd really like a number of dates on how long is too long to be separated.

[Beb]

I think the inherent bitchiness was always there, but it's also important to remember that Zsu has noted, in one of her older "FAQ" posts, that the PP was much less conservative when they married than he is now. So in a sense, I'm not really sure she *did* know exactly what she was getting herself into. Not that that makes her any less horrid, but I think it's an interesting factoid.

Apparently, Zsu was also much less conservative then, so it would seem they have traveled the independent baptist, fundy road together.

From Zsu's writing and from what I've seen if her on youtube, she does not appear to be the retiring, submissive little woman like many of her counterparts. In fact, she seems to have a good bit of control in that marriage.

[lilith]

It's worth considering that when they met the PP had a bookshelf full of bibles (all King James) so that when they came to burn him they would have fuel

to do so with. That is literal fuel, not metaphorical.

He was studying at a very fundie bible college (Hyles Anderson of recent sex scandal fame), who he soon parted ways with cause they weren't fundie enough.

And he met her in Munich when he was street preaching.

So yeah, he was already pretty damn conservative and fundie. Especially compared to a teenage German anthropology major.

[latraviata]

It's worth considering that when they met the PP had a bookshelf full of bibles (all King James) so that when they came to burn him they would have fuel

to do so with. That is literal fuel, not metaphorical.

He was studying at a very fundie bible college (Hyles Anderson of recent sex scandal fame), who he soon parted ways with cause they weren't fundie enough.

And he met her in Munich when he was street preaching.

So yeah, he was already pretty damn conservative and fundie. Especially compared to a teenage German anthropology major.

This

[JesusFightClub]

That doesn't make any sense (but it's the PP so why am I surprised). If you were going to burn someone you wouldn't expect them to provide the fuel.

A little story for those with strong stomachs:

The Cheka (Bolshevik secret police) during the Russian Civil War. There was once a female Chekist who thought it would be a good idea to send opponents on a ship. Then down the ship. Any who survived and got to land were then set on fire.

I do not remember that anyone was required to provide their own fuel though. This seems a bit strange. You would obviously lay in your own stocks beforehand if you were going to burn people alive.

[asinglevoice]

So yeah, he was already pretty damn conservative and fundie. Especially compared to a teenage German anthropology major.

I'm not saying he wasn't already conservative - but to know that he got even more conservative throughout the course of their marriage is interesting to me. And Zsu is no victim in this situation, but when your options are to either a.) get out with several kids, no money or resources, in a country where you have no family or friends to speak of, or b.) suck it up and stay - well, it's obvious which option she chose, and she's paying for it dearly now. She's a miserable old hag who looks 15 years older than she actually is, crammed into a tiny house with more kids than she can manage and whose only happiness derives from cutting down others.

From Zsu's writing and from what I've seen if her on youtube, she does not appear to be the retiring, submissive little woman like many of her counterparts. In fact, she seems to have a good bit of control in that marriage.

If the PP is gay, as many have speculated (and I would be very surprised if he wasn't!), Zsu certainly knows about it and I think she uses that knowledge to her advantage.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Caveat: Not religious here. I merely lurk on religious blogs.

But! Aside from the laws of niddah which other people mentioned already (when you can and cannot have sex in any one month, due to period issues) there's also some scriptures (I can't tell you anything about where/what but someone else probably will recognize it) that supposedly allow for roughly 2 years of birth control between kids because in the scriptures it was at the time "natural" for breastfeeding and whatnot to naturally space the kids out 2 years.

So, there are some Orthodox Jewish people who rely on that to say that they will permit BC (with a rabbi's advice) for up to two years but if you go further than that it's a problem.

Separately from that, back to the niddah thing again, there's people who argue over whether it's "okay" to delay going to the mikvah (the ritual bath that changes you back from forbidden to touch, to touchable). Some people will delay it (so they have more "non-touching" days than required) and sometimes this has implications for fertility, sometimes desired by both parties, usually not spoken of directly.

So it's possible this refers to either of those, at least in a Jewish context, I have no idea if there's similar in the Christian context but the scripture they'd be referring to is probably shared?

Dunno.

Explicit reference to using birth control to ensure at least 2 years between pregnancies is found in the Talmud, but Zsu wouldn't follow that.

There is some reference to long nursing times in the Bible itself (like the story of Hannah and her son Samuel, who was taken to be raised by the priest after he was weaned) where it is clear that weaning did not take place until the child was at least a toddler.