Terrorist Bombing in Norway - Right Wing Fundie MERGED

[Effie]

According to the internet, Norway and the surrounding countries are very liberal when it comes too religion, gender roles, and lifestyle choices. I guess fundies hate this to the extreme. They probably see all of the Scandanavians to be absolute heathen. :snooty:

Yup, I guess we are quite liberal in contrast to the rest of the world. I know my country (Sweden) has been listed as the most equal country in the world (and well Norway is not far behind). So definitely a horror for the fundies. An example of how liberal we are when it comes to religion is that a pastor once was arrested for critical opinions on homosexuality in his sermons (but later acquitted boohoo).

Well, something I could gather from all the nonsense this man was rambling about on the document.no was that "men nowadays are feminized". He was also troubled with priests wearing jeans. Well, let's say that he seemed to be troubled with a lot of things in our society. His writings made me sick.

[GolightlyGrrl]

I would not be in the least bit surprised to see more "christian" fundamentalist types becoming more violent here in the USA. We have the Palin and Bachman types calling for "second amendment" solutions to social change in the USA. We have Lou Sheldon (Traditional Values Coalition) and Bryan Fischer (American Family Association) and other right wing religious leaders calling for armed revolts to take back America and establish a theocracy here. Eventually some of their followers (many of whom are better armed than the military or police) are going to take them literally and start the revolution.

I totally agree. That's why I can't just look at the teaparty, fundies, et al as people to snark on. They truly have me worried.

The gunman spent 1.5 hours on the island shooting.

http://news.yahoo.com/norway-gunman-fir ... 27353.html

I can't even wrap my brain around this tragedy. It's almost too huge to comprehend. I keep thinking we'll all wake up and it this will turn out to be a nightmare. This is similar to how I felt in the wake of 9/11.

[Effie]

It's remarkable that he seemed to be concerned about the young people of today in his writings:

"Ikke-muslimsk ungdom I Oslo i aldersgruppen 12-18 er i en spesielt utsatt situasjon med tanke på trakassering fra muslimsk ungdom." (Non-Muslim youth in Oslo aged 12-18 are in a particularly vulnerable situation in terms of harassment from Muslim youth.)

"Jeg tør ikke engang tenke på hvor mange norske ungdommer som har tatt selvmord pga disse opplevelsene (overgrep, ran, voldtekt, psykisk terror begått av Muslimsk ungdom). Det er trolig flere hundre de siste 15 år." (I dare not even think about how many Norwegian children who have committed suicide because of these experiences (assault, robbery, rape, psychological terror committed by Muslim youths). There are probably several hundred in the last 15 years.)

"Jeg kan huske at det var på en skole i Oslo Sentrum Øst, i en skoleklasse der det kun var EN eneste norsk gutt igjen (majoriteten var muslimer). De aller fleste andre hadde tatt barna sine ut av skolen. Moren til denne gutten var selvfølgelig en hardbarket marxist som på død og liv skulle bevise at multikulturalisme og Islam vill fungere. Hun nektet å flytte til et annet område eller ta ham ut av skolen. Sønnen hennes skulle bevise en gang for alle at islamofobene på dokument og andre kulturkonservative tok feil og at det VAR mulig. Den stakkars gutten ble trakkasert i flere år intil han en dag begynte med selvskading. Han fortalte sin marxistmor at han ønsket å dø. Først etter dette innså moren at hun hadde tatt feil. Resultatet ble at de flyttet til et annet nabolag og skiftet skole." ("I remember that it was a school in Oslo Center East, in a class where there was only a single Norwegian boy (the majority were Muslims). Most of the others had taken their children out of school. The mother of this boy was of course, a hardcore Marxist who would prove that multiculturalism and Islam could go hand in hand. She refused to move to another area or take him out of school. Her son would prove once and for all that Islamophobes and other cultural conservatives were wrong and that it WAS possible. The poor boy was harassed for several years until he one day became self-destructive. He told his marxist-mother that he wanted to die. Only after this the mother realized that she had been wrong. The result was that they moved to another neighborhood and changed to another school. ")

You know, and then he went and killed 85 children and youths....

[Clementine]

So tragic. According to the MSN homepage, the suspect is believed to be a right-wing, fundamentalist Christian.

I wouldn't make anything of the "Christian" angle - the Scandinavian media has labeled the killer "Norwegian christian" as opposed to "Norwegian muslim/any other religion". There are just a handful Christian fundies in Scandinavia (and they can't really be compared to the American fundies in the level of craziness) and the killer isn't reported to belong to any Christian church. But he is probably brought up in a culturally Christian home and environment. (Baptised as an infant, confirmated etc - most Scandinavians are, but after that we rarely go to the church at all.)

The killer seems to have sympathized or belonged to a right-wing party - most of them were started by neo-nazists and then have gradually become more "polished", at least on the surface, and now they are elected into the parliament in several European countries. We are tragically seeing a more hostile attitude towards immigrants in many European countries now, including the Scandinavian countries.

It's a very, very tragic story and I am beyond chocked and sad over what has happened to our neighbours.

[Clementine]

I wondered how long it would take for this site to pick up on the 'christian fundamentalist' aspect of this. We talk every day about what people in this country are doing to their kids, and how they are raising a more and more conservative right winged generation. Is this what will happen one day? Violence in an attempt to fight back against all that they see as 'immoral'? Yes, there is certainly a huge element of 'he was flipping crazy' about this Norwegian man, but this isn't the first time that violence has broken out in Europe over (let's be truthful here) the influx of Muslim immigrants who are having children so much faster than Europeans. I don't think that there is a 'solution,' as they aren't going to be able to successfully have people stop reproducing, or immigrating (while the right wingers in this country are trying to out produce all the 'heathens' as well), until we fix the root of the problem. As long as the Middle East is a hotbed of war and instability people are going to try to flee. Most of my middle eastern friends would love to go back to their homeland but it isn't safe. This entire situation is just sad. There is so much hatred, prejudice and mistrust, when people just really want somewhere to live in safety.

Thoughts on the future of European multiculturalism?

The "multiculturalism" in Europe hasn't really been that successful, since so many immigrants more or less live outside the society, don't learn the language and are very unlikely to get a job and support themselves.

We can't afford to continue to accept large groups of immigrants who will live on wellfare for the rest of their lives - that's the sad truth. If the politicians won't admit this and do something about it, I fear that we will see more hatred between the immigrants and the rest of the population. I am also sick and tired of how the authorities are so scared to deal with honor killings and the honor culture because they are afraid to be called racists. I expect all the people who chose to move to my country to follow our law, or don't move here at all.

The right-wing parties are elected into the parliaments for a reason. I don't sympathize with them at all, but I do think that the way we are dealing with the immigrants is unsucessful and something has to be done about it.

[Effie]

I wouldn't make anything of the "Christian" angle - the Scandinavian media has labeled the killer "Norwegian christian".

Well, apparently his religion is important for him, so we should not ignore that. "Jeg er selv protestant og døpte/konfirmerte meg av egen fri vilje da jeg var 15.

Men dagens protestantisk kirke er en vits. Prester i jeans som marsjerer for Palestina og kirker som ser ut som minimalistiske kjøpesentre. Jeg er tilhenger av en indirekte kollektiv konvertering fra den protestantiske kirke tilbake til den katolske. I mellomtiden stemmer jeg på de mest konservative kandidatene ved kirkevalg."

In his writings you can find his concerns about Christianity. He feels that Christianity is being under attack while Islam is expanding.

This crazy dude was/is writing a book? 2083 is the title or something. I guess we should be scared because he will be a free man before 2083. "Jeg har selv laget oversikter over disse nettverkene som jeg skal lansere i boken min." and "Boken heter forresten 2083 og er på engelsk, 1100 sider."

[JesusFightClub]

Effie, please can you translate? This is very interesting.

[maybeizfundie]

I'm curious if he was a lone nut, or if he attended a church that preached violent response to opposition? Are any Christians fundy or otherwise defending or excusing him? Was he following fundamentalist and/or Christian teaching or his own ravings?

He can call himself a fundamentalist Christian, just like he could call himself a Freemason. Whether he was truly either, who knows at this point? Weird if he called himself both, too, because most fundies I know seriously object to Masonic stuff.

(Similar to the shooter at the Amish school. He wasn't following any Christian teaching nor fundy teaching that I have ever heard of, in entering that school with an apparent intent to rape the girls, and then shooting them. :( Whatever he called himself, I see no basis in fundamentalism for what he did.)

Regardless, what he did was beyond horrific and evil. Nobody deserves to be slaughtered that way. Nobody. :(

[CynicMom]

Stupid online translators! Here's my best guess:

"I'm a protestant and I was confirmed when I was 15, but today's protestant church is a joke. People show up in jeans and the presentation is minimal. I adhere to a concealed thingy that wants to make it more like the Catholic church. In the meantime [something about conservative candidates]."

Something about a book with more than 1100 pages.

[Effie]

Effie, please can you translate? This is very interesting.

"I myself am a Protestant and I was baptized/confirmed by my own free will when I was 15.

But today's Protestant church is a joke. Priests in jeans who march for Palestine, and churches that look like the minimalistic shopping malls. I am a supporter of an indirect collective conversion of the Protestant church back to the Catholic. In the meantime, I vote for the most conservative candidates in church elections. "

About his book he says: "I have made lists of these networks, which I will write about in my book." and "By the way, the book is called 2083 and is in English, 1100 pages." -> I don’t know which networks he is referring to, but his comment is a reply to another post (this post http://www.document.no/2009/12/hva_hvis/ which is about Mahmoud Rabea, a young criminal member of Nørrebro-bandene).

[JesusFightClub]

My experience has been different from Clementine's. I lived in a Muslim immigrant majority area (couple of streets!) and the vast majority held down jobs.

The thing that was most jarring was that some of the women wore niqab. In fact although the area is not where I live any more I went back to meet a friend and the first thing I see, a woman in niqab! She was talking, gesturing and laughing and not with a husband policing her, she was with a pal in hijab. I learnt (including from FJ) to shed my assumptions on the matter.

There's a language issue. Wee kids translate for Mummy or Granny which can be a difficulty. The dads usually have better English.

I tried not to be an arsehole about it but I found "it's good to talk." Like the guy in the shop who pores over a book between customers. "I'm memorising the Qu'ran." Or the girl I saw every day who talked about her decision to not wear the hijab any more. We need dialogue from both sides, even at the risk of sounding like an idiot (which I do many times), people like to talk about their interests and beliefs, let's do that and get to understand each other better. It'll not solve all problems but it's a start.

[JesusFightClub]

While I'm sounding like a fucking woolly liberal :lol: there's another thing which probably would split the board if we did a questionnaire. Palestine.

In my experience very hostile Muslim immigrants or citizens are surprised to hear people express views which are not pro Israeli. They assume from the media we all think the Palestinians are scum and by extension all Muslims are too.

This is a subject I don't discuss much online. But thought it may be interesting.

[Artemis]

William has less hair!

[Cassandra]

Exactly. The Tea Party and the Republicans have had an influx of people who are more and more right wing and a lot of them have ties to Christian nationalist groups. I'm reading, The Kingdom Coming right now and I have to say the more I read about the web of this extremely vocal minority, the more unnerved I feel about them.

I mean Palin's already gone around and put gun eyesights on political enemies.

[leena_noor]

JesusFightClub---I was Muslim while in college (story on my blog if you want to know) and have friends that wear hijab and/or niqab. These women are just like you and me. They are articulate, smart (some of the most educated women I've ever met) kind women. They hate that society worships women's sexuality, rather than God and think that by covering completely they are forcing people to judge them for the contents of their mind. Sadly...now people just judge them for what they wear and don't bother to get to know the contents on their mind. These women aren't backwards, culturally stuck, forced by their husbands...any of those stereotypes. Most niqabi's I know are unmarried, well educated 20 sometimes, some converts. It's sad that there isn't more dialogue. I feel fortunate to have met these women and consider them friends.

I do politely disagree with lack of belief in evolution (b/c of Qur'an speaks of Adam and Eve being created), among other things but really...they aren't any different than us. Promise:)

[Maul the Koala]

Thoughts on the future of European multiculturalism?

What European multi-culturalism? :| I say this with all seriousness after living in two European countries. The map of continental Europe was basically set up after World War I with the idea of self-determination and some tweaking was done in-between WWI and the end of WWII. So we have all these little countries that pop up after the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that are one group ethnically (generally, exceptions include Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the time). Even so you have Yugoslavia breaking up into their own countries by ethnic boundaries in the 90s and Czechoslovakia in 1993 becoming the Czech Republic and Slovakia. I could go on and on all day, but I won't. ;) A lot of the cultures do feel threatened by the immigrants coming in, especially Muslim immigrants whose own cultures and values are firmly entrenched. For places where the culture has been in place for decades this is a shock to the system. I have to admit it's fascinating to watch. I'm Canadian by birth and I was raised in what is considered a multi-cultural society so to see that is vastly different than what I grew up with.

I also got to hear a lot of grumblings about the open borders concept in the EU where there's freedom to move around and work. I think the younger generation is warming up to it and liking it but a lot of the older generations really don't like it.

There is some progress being made. You have Philipp Rosler, Vice Chancellor of Germany who is of Vietnamese origin. His parents were German and adopted him as a baby. He identifies as German but still. Some progress there (to my Canadian eye anyway). But I don't think I'll ever see what I understand as multi-culturalism happening in some European countries any time soon. It's going to take the OMG MUSLIMS!!!eleventy1111!!! sentiment to die down and in some places a complete adjustment on both the country and its immigrants. It makes me absolutely shudder when we get the right wing nutjobs preaching on the radio that we here in Canada need to treat immigrants exactly like they do in Europe. Yes, because that's working out so well for them.

I could go on but this is a teal deer already.

[Witsec1]

PZ Myers has what purports to be excerpts from his manifesto here:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011 ... ged_mi.php

Apparently he thought of himself as a modern-day Knight Templar

[fundifugee]

How about a terrorist watch list and no-fly list for fundamentalist christians as well?

[luckylibrarian]

Not trying to derail the thread, but I wanted to say thanks to Effie for translating and helping us non-Norwegians understand this tragedy.

Is it true that the most he can get is 21 years in prison? That seems insane. I'm anti-death penalty, but I'd hope he would get life in prison.

[Annette]

Can he not be tried for murder in addition to the terrorism charge? None of the articles I've read have mentioned it. The idea of a person like this getting out in 21 years is terrifying.

[Cassandra]

Can he not be tried for murder in addition to the terrorism charge? None of the articles I've read have mentioned it. The idea of a person like this getting out in 21 years is terrifying.

With this kind of crazy 21 years in prison will just lead to 21 years of uninterrupted plotting.

[mirele]

I downloaded the 1500+ page plus "manifesto" and perused it. *shudder* For me, the worst part was the last ~50 pages or so, where he goes through his thinking about making bombs, then wrote a diary about his 80 days preparation for his bombing campaign. At the end he says that if he had known it would really only take 30 days...but he's putting it out there for "followers," of which I am sure there will be a crazy few.

I can't even imagine what kind of mental contortions he had to put himself through to get from "Jesus, Prince of Peace" and "thou shalt not kill" to casually mowing down youths and children on an island and blowing up downtown Oslo. I don't believe in hell, but "hell is not hot enough yet" for this b*st*rd.

[JesusFightClub]

Not trying to derail the thread, but I wanted to say thanks to Effie for translating and helping us non-Norwegians understand this tragedy.

Yes, many thanks to Effie for that! That was very kind and very helpful.

[JesusFightClub]

JesusFightClub---I was Muslim while in college (story on my blog if you want to know) and have friends that wear hijab and/or niqab. These women are just like you and me. They are articulate, smart (some of the most educated women I've ever met) kind women. They hate that society worships women's sexuality, rather than God and think that by covering completely they are forcing people to judge them for the contents of their mind. Sadly...now people just judge them for what they wear and don't bother to get to know the contents on their mind. These women aren't backwards, culturally stuck, forced by their husbands...any of those stereotypes. Most niqabi's I know are unmarried, well educated 20 sometimes, some converts. It's sad that there isn't more dialogue. I feel fortunate to have met these women and consider them friends.

I do politely disagree with lack of belief in evolution (b/c of Qur'an speaks of Adam and Eve being created), among other things but really...they aren't any different than us. Promise:)

Leena, where is your blog? I would be very interested to read that.

There were two things which helped me understand the beliefs of the women who wear niqab somewhat, one was a book called something like "Sisters" and one was a girl who posted on FJ about it. Now I don't feel against it in the way I did before. I've marched next to them on demos but never spoken. I always still feel like they wouldn't want to talk to a non Muslim so while I've had no problems to speak to anyone else I am shy with folk in niqab. Still trying to understand Islam better, sounds like your blog would really help.

[debrand]

I downloaded the 1500+ page plus "manifesto" and perused it. *shudder* For me, the worst part was the last ~50 pages or so, where he goes through his thinking about making bombs, then wrote a diary about his 80 days preparation for his bombing campaign. At the end he says that if he had known it would really only take 30 days...but he's putting it out there for "followers," of which I am sure there will be a crazy few.

I can't even imagine what kind of mental contortions he had to put himself through to get from "Jesus, Prince of Peace" and "thou shalt not kill" to casually mowing down youths and children on an island and blowing up downtown Oslo. I don't believe in hell, but "hell is not hot enough yet" for this b*st*rd.

I think that in order to have such hatred, he had to dehumanize the victims in his brain. That way, in his thinking, Jesus' words wouldn't apply to them.