Columnist advises a mother whose daughter rejects religion

[turquoise]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle ... story.html

Carolyn Hax is one of my favorite advice columnists. She has a letter from a Christian mother whose 16-year-old daughter announced she was an atheist. Mom thinks her daughter is too young to make such a decision and wonders if this could be a sign of psychological problems.

I'm surprised she even wrote to a secular columnist, but Carolyn gave her great advice. Hopefully the mom will listen.

[Jinger Jar]

Hax nailed it when she pointed out that religion as a family value is problematic. Faith is deeply personal, despite what fundamentalists of all stripes think. Parents (religious parents, that is) can pass along religious traditions, but that ain't the same thing as faith.

Let's face it, the girl's 16. What kid that age doesn't know which parental buttons to push to get the biggest reactionary payload? Maybe she announced she's atheist because she knew it would make her mom's head explode. It could be that it's the only true opportunity for rebellion the kid has.

I'm thinking mom's real concern is the effect/influence this will have on her other children. 'You'll believe exactly as I tell you to believe as long as you live under my roof' types hate it when one of their kids strays because it might encourage the younger ones to start questioning.

[marmalade]

I'm sure said mother had nothing to say when said daughter likely succumbed to peer pressure when she was 10 and "found Jeebus." That seems to be the average age for fundies to declare.

Unless you're a really speshul snowflake like David Waller and claim you can remember being saved when you were 3. :roll:

[Anxious Girl]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

This "advice columnist (sp?)" deserves an internet/two! I only hope the mother will take her advice.

[PennySycamore]

I remember when I told my parents that I didn't believe and that I did not want to go to church anymore. They weren't happy about it, but they respected my decision. I was about 16, btw.

[GeoBQn]

I'm sure said mother had nothing to say when said daughter likely succumbed to peer pressure when she was 10 and "found Jeebus." That seems to be the average age for fundies to declare.

Yes, getting "saved" at 3 is perfectly ok, but if a 16-year-old decides she's an atheist then she "does not have the maturity to make such a life-changing decision."

[DifferentGurl]

There's one line that made me think about the Duggars, Bates, etc...when the columnist said that the mother may have restricted things so much in the household that the daughter could only be "All in" or "all out"...no where in between.

[emmiedahl]

Even though I read here, it still strikes me as weird.

Isn't it normal at age 16 to start figuring out what you believe? And you cannot even take the first step in that until you reject (at least temporarily) what you have been fed your whole life.

I completely expect my children to do this; I might be weirded out if they didn't.

[VaSportsMom]

I really like Carolyn Hax and I thought she gave great advice. In our house my husband is a non-practicing Christian, my baby (12) attends church regularly, I'm atheist and my 16yo only attends church when some girl drags him there*. This has always worked for us as we agreed from the beginning to allow the boys to make religious/faith decisions for themselves.

*My teen is now involved with a girl from a fundy (lite?) family and for the first time in my life I'll put my foot down about either of my boys attending church. I won't have patriarchy preached at him, period.

[luckystone]

Nice advice. When I saw the thread title I thought it would be a religious columnist. Good to see this response.

I really like Carolyn Hax and I thought she gave great advice. In our house my husband is a non-practicing Christian, my baby (12) attends church regularly, I'm atheist and my 16yo only attends church when some girl drags him there*. This has always worked for us as we agreed from the beginning to allow the boys to make religious/faith decisions for themselves.

*My teen is now involved with a girl from a fundy (lite?) family and for the first time in my life I'll put my foot down about either of my boys attending church. I won't have patriarchy preached at him, period.

That's scary...I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation. Will you ban church or will that make it worse? Can you explain to them the wrongness of patriarchy?

[B5SnowDog]

I really like Carolyn Hax and I thought she gave great advice. In our house my husband is a non-practicing Christian, my baby (12) attends church regularly, I'm atheist and my 16yo only attends church when some girl drags him there*. This has always worked for us as we agreed from the beginning to allow the boys to make religious/faith decisions for themselves.

*My teen is now involved with a girl from a fundy (lite?) family and for the first time in my life I'll put my foot down about either of my boys attending church. I won't have patriarchy preached at him, period.

These two statements contradict each other. Either you do allow them to make religious decisions for themselves or you don't. I think you might be missing a teachable moment here. If you prevent him from attending with a girl he likes, that makes church more enticing. If you allow him to attend and then discuss why you disagree with what is taught when he comes home, you'll be giving him ammunition against patriarchal and predatory churches.

[gustava]

WASHINGTON POST

Daughter’s turnabout on religion shakes mother’s faith

By Carolyn Hax,

Dear Carolyn: I am a stay-at-home mother of four who has tried to raise my family under the same strong Christian values that I grew up with. Therefore I was shocked when my oldest daughter, “Emily,†suddenly announced she had “given up believing in God†and decided to “come out†as an atheist. She said she was “happy†in her decision and that it just “felt right.†She no longer wishes to attend church, speak to the pastor or even to participate in family prayers.

I love my daughter dearly, but I am troubled by this turn of events. She has never seriously misbehaved or otherwise given me cause to worry before this. Emily insists she is old enough to make up her own mind, but I simply do not think a girl of 16 has the maturity to make such a life-changing decision. Our pastor cautions me that putting too much pressure on her now might cause her to become even more entrenched in her thinking.

How can I help my daughter see that she is making a serious mistake with her life if she chooses to reject her God and her faith? Can I just chalk this up to teenage rebellion, something she’s bound to outgrow, or do you suppose this a precursor to some deeper psychological problem? — God-Fearing Mom

Please tell me it’s not either-or.

And please also tell me what you would have Emily do — pretend she believes? Pseudo-pray?

This is the fundamental problem with religion as a family value instead of a personal one: Faith isn’t in the teachings or rituals of the group. It’s in the individual’s belief — with one after another after another combining to create a religion.

Parents can and should teach their beliefs and values, but when a would-be disciple stops believing, it’s not a “decision†or “choice†to “reject†church or family or tradition or virtue or whatever else has hitched a cultural ride with faith. The only choice is between living their truth by admitting non-belief, or faking it so as not to upset the folks/scare the horses/torpedo electability to national office.

So I’ll ask again, what would you have nonbelievers do? Lie? Even people who want and try to believe just . . . can’t. Or don’t. I’m living proof. (No nagging psychological problems to pin it on, either.)

This isn’t to say every case of disbelief is permanent, or even real. Your daughter may well be in a questioning phase, trying on personas, declaring age-appropriate independence from you, and she might take years to find answers that satisfy her enough to stick.

One of those answers might be that you raised her to think deeply and live honestly, and this is just where those laudable values unexpectedly brought her.

Another might be that she didn’t necessarily want to take such a big leap, but you’ve presented all your kids with such a narrow definition of goodness that their only choices are to conform fully or leave the fold entirely — and she’d come back in if you gave her a little more room to find goodness in her own way.

Another answer may be for her to discover her faith has been there all along, the long view your pastor seems to be taking. Certainly indicating you’re not afraid of Emily’s doubts will make a better case for your “Christian values†than will treating her as if she’s delinquent or mentally ill. Consider how you view adherents of other faiths, after all — particularly those who observe as their families taught them to. Imagine if the accidents of birth and geography really were the last word on who’s right about God.

If she does rekindle her faith, then her faith will arguably be stronger for her challenging it.

If instead she doesn’t return, then you’re stuck with the central question I’m pressing here: For those harboring naturally occurring doubts, how to honor the values of a religious upbringing, without perpetrating fraud?

I mean answer in a realistic way, not a wishfully thought, “I just want her to embrace God because it’s the right thing to do†way.

Skepticism is no less personal than faith. Accordingly, I speak only for myself, but I didn’t throw out what my childhood, including my church, taught me; I still apply what I believe in. I just apply it to a secular life.

To see other possibilities, please bring your values — all of them — to this riddle, plus your love for your daughter, as well as further insight from your pastor and others who can bring different perspectives.

Also, take away any obstacles to seeing your daughter’s goodness fully — including your disappointment that she isn’t turning out just as you’ve envisioned. Kids never do; at least, not when your vision is any more specific than, “Genuine, brave and kind.â€

Write to Carolyn Hax, Style, 1150 15th St. NW, Washington, D.C. 20071, or tellme@washpost.com. Subscribe at www.facebook.com/carolynhax.

© The Washington Post Company

[Ava]

My mother once sent me a snippet of an advice column with roughly the same question but a totally different response from the advice writer - all about "she's just going through a temporary phase" and "she'll come back eventually" and "she just wants to sleep in on Sundays" and "maybe she'd just like to attend a different kind of church - work with her to find one". It made me absolutely furious. Of course I was much too afraid to tell my parents I was an atheist at 16, I waited until I was 20 and (I thought) I could just leave if things turned sour.

I asked my mom some of the things the columnist asks... if I don't believe in your religion, what do you want me to do, go to church with you and pretend to worship? Apparently the answer is "yes". When I refuse to do it, I'm selfish and stubborn, and when I ask what exactly it is my mother gets out of forcing me to participate in this farce, I don't get anything more than "it just makes me happy". I've always been so jealous of people who said that they wanted to stop going to church in their teens and their parents let them - it just was. not. an. option. in my house. It's actually kind of hard for me to comprehend - that any parent would actually respect their child's religious opinions that much and not default to "you'll think what I want you to think or else!"

[Guest Anonymous]

As discussed here: http://freejinger.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12678

[ExCatholic]

This is such great advice. I'm considering clipping this article for when Mr. ExCatholic and I start creating little blessings and our mothers kick the religious pressure up a notch.

Bit of a derail, does anyone know any good online support forums for former Catholics? We've been hearing "you WILL baptize my grandbaby" since before we were even engaged and would love some advice from those who have been there.

Edited for spelling

[ILoveJellybeans]

16 is definetly not too young to decide not to believe in God-I think she gave good advice.

I was 7 when I first decided that I didnt believe. I think 7-10 sounds about right to be able to properly decide when it comes to religion as its when a lot of kids stopped believing in Santa, and are starting to seperate real from fake. Any younger and theyre just parroting what their parents tell them, because they see how happy their parents are when they say that they believe in God and love Jesus and stuff like that. Fundies dont notice that though, they think a 16 year old who decides not to follow her familys religion is too young to know and just going through a rebellious phase, but a 5 year old who talks about being Christian is old enough to know for sure, even though if their parents told them that rain is caused by angels crying they would believe that too.

[lilah]

My husband and I have a mixed marriage (Reform Jewish, Protestant Christian and a little Buddhism thrown in there for good measure) and all our conversations about what religious identity we want to impart on our future unborn kids make me realize how you can't force a faith on a person it is something they have to chose for themselves.

[AnnieC 305]

This reminds me of the discussion I had with my mother when I was 15 and decided I was Pagan, not Catholic. She said I could believe what I wanted, she just wanted me to go through Confirmation so I could get married in the Catholic Church someday, because it was probably a phase and I'd probably change my mind.

In confession I told the school priest (Catholic school) that I really didn't consider myself Catholic anymore, that I was just going through the motions to make my mother happy, and he was okay with that. I was doing it to honor my mother and there was a chance I would come back. He didn't offer absolution, but he didn't say anything about my going through Confirmation either. They really were happy with me just going through the motions, with the image and not the substance.

Twelve years later, and twelve years ago today I stood in the back of a military chapel while a Pagan celebrant got everything ready and reminded my mother about the whole Confirmation.Catholic wedding thing. As a result the last words my mother said to me before I got married were "Shut up and get your ass down that aisle." In our family that passed for love. :lol:

Since then I've become an Atheist and am no longer really speaking with my mother. But every year the husband goes on a Catholic retreat with his dad. And he tells the priest in confession that he's only there to make his dad happy. But I have since drawn the line at Catholic, too many scandals, too much politics. If we're going to do anything with the future kidlets we're going Episcopalian.

[ilovetchotchkes]

My husband and I have a mixed marriage (Reform Jewish, Protestant Christian and a little Buddhism thrown in there for good measure) and all our conversations about what religious identity we want to impart on our future unborn kids make me realize how you can't force a faith on a person it is something they have to chose for themselves.

And if you try the kid rebels. Although my family is convinced that I'd still be Catholic if ONLY they had indoctrinated me more!

My mother once sent me a snippet of an advice column with roughly the same question but a totally different response from the advice writer - all about "she's just going through a temporary phase" and "she'll come back eventually" and "she just wants to sleep in on Sundays" and "maybe she'd just like to attend a different kind of church - work with her to find one". It made me absolutely furious. Of course I was much too afraid to tell my parents I was an atheist at 16, I waited until I was 20 and (I thought) I could just leave if things turned sour.

I asked my mom some of the things the columnist asks... if I don't believe in your religion, what do you want me to do, go to church with you and pretend to worship? Apparently the answer is "yes". When I refuse to do it, I'm selfish and stubborn, and when I ask what exactly it is my mother gets out of forcing me to participate in this farce, I don't get anything more than "it just makes me happy". I've always been so jealous of people who said that they wanted to stop going to church in their teens and their parents let them - it just was. not. an. option. in my house. It's actually kind of hard for me to comprehend - that any parent would actually respect their child's religious opinions that much and not default to "you'll think what I want you to think or else!"

My parents had much the same attitude. Do it "for the family". Until I had formally converted to Judaism, they were still nagging me to take communion. Even though I didn't believe in it. Did they think that upon consuming the cracker and wine, that I'd have like, this epiphany? When it had failed to happen the previous 700 or so times in my lifetime that I had taken communion?

My family is STILL giving me the "its a phase" bit, I was told recently that I was not Jewish, I was merely estranged from the Catholic church and I could come "home" at any time. And my grandmother has asked multiple times when my children are getting baptized (answer: if they decide to convert to Christianity!)

Its gotten so bad that I've informed them, that I will go to Catholic Mass only 3 more times in my future, for my parents funerals and for grandma's and that's IT.

Since both my husband and I are Jewish, we are raising the kids as such, but if they go off and be something else? (or nothing at all!) I won't be thrilled but they're 2 people with their own minds. And if they get the same joy out of it that I get out of Judaism, who am I to question or criticize.

Edited multiple times because I have the dumb today. ;P Riffles galore.

[Jana814]

Yes, getting "saved" at 3 is perfectly ok, but if a 16-year-old decides she's an atheist then she "does not have the maturity to make such a life-changing decision."

That just does not make any sence to me. A 3 year old says what an older sibling might say, or what a parent/grandparent might say. But someone who is almost an adult can't make their own decisions when it comes to religion!

[kb2]

My favorite part is when the mother refers to de-conversion as "making a serious mistake with her life," despite the fact that the mother herself admits she sees no signs of poor decision making otherwise. She's obviously either afraid of her daughter going to hell or belongs to one of those churches that teaches you can never, ever make good decisions without praying first and therefore her life is destined to fall apart in the future. I find that aspect of religion annoying. People go from feeling superior to everyone outside their religion because they're not faced with someone they care about being hell bound, to being distraught when someone close to them deconverts...and not because anything actually bad happens to them!

[thekate]

This reminds me of the discussion I had with my mother when I was 15 and decided I was Pagan, not Catholic. She said I could believe what I wanted, she just wanted me to go through Confirmation so I could get married in the Catholic Church someday, because it was probably a phase and I'd probably change my mind.

Unless things changed recently, she was just guilt-tripping you. I was never confirmed and still had a Catholic wedding.

Since then I've become an Atheist and am no longer really speaking with my mother. But every year the husband goes on a Catholic retreat with his dad. And he tells the priest in confession that he's only there to make his dad happy. But I have since drawn the line at Catholic, too many scandals, too much politics. If we're going to do anything with the future kidlets we're going Episcopalian.

Have you checked out a Unitarian-Universalist congregation? They also have a great sex-ed program.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Unless things changed recently, she was just guilt-tripping you. I was never confirmed and still had a Catholic wedding.

Have you checked out a Unitarian-Universalist congregation? They also have a great sex-ed program.

^^ This. They're incredibly inclusive, of ANYTHING- the one I went to for a while in college had a staunch atheist as the president of the congregation and his wife was a lapsed Catholic.

[valsa]

These two statements contradict each other. Either you do allow them to make religious decisions for themselves or you don't. I think you might be missing a teachable moment here. If you prevent him from attending with a girl he likes, that makes church more enticing. If you allow him to attend and then discuss why you disagree with what is taught when he comes home, you'll be giving him ammunition against patriarchal and predatory churches.

I think you can support your children making their own decisions and still draw a line in the sand at some things. I plan on allowing my children to make their own decisions on what they believe in life but I'd still put my foot down in my 16 year old wanted to go to, say, a KKK rally.

[VaSportsMom]

These two statements contradict each other. Either you do allow them to make religious decisions for themselves or you don't. I think you might be missing a teachable moment here. If you prevent him from attending with a girl he likes, that makes church more enticing. If you allow him to attend and then discuss why you disagree with what is taught when he comes home, you'll be giving him ammunition against patriarchal and predatory churches.

Nice advice. When I saw the thread title I thought it would be a religious columnist. Good to see this response.

That's scary...I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation. Will you ban church or will that make it worse? Can you explain to them the wrongness of patriarchy?

I hope I got these quotes right. If not I apoligize in advance. B5SnowDog, I realize how those quotes contradict each other and I'm struggling with it terribly. I had always planned to give my children complete freedom to explore different religions and choose whatever felt right to them but I won't allow patriarchy to be an option. My 16 year old is a pretty boy, jock that half thinks he is God's gift to females anyway. I can almost see patriarchy appealing to him in an "Ah, I knew I was right" sort of way. It is something he would bore of quickly but I won't have him walking around thinking he really is above women for even one moment.

Luckystone, I won't "ban" church but I won't allow him to be in a position where he can go to church with this girl. They've been allowed to go to the movies in a group a few times and yesterday her parents allowed her to spend a couple hours here but I won't let my son visit her at home.

They clearly aren't hardcore Fundy. The gf is 1 off 11 (she is a part of the only set of twins). She dresses modestly but rather fashionably (in jeans) while the Mom was in a denim skirt and had her hair up in a bun yesterday so it would seem they allow their children more freedom to choose as well as come and go than I would have expected. She is homeschooled but the kids met on Facebook. I am going to talk to my son about Fundamentalism and possibly have him read Razing Ruth. I'm thinking on my feet on this one and trying to protect my child while not demean another child.