How much money could the Maxwell guys really make?

[gustava]

I'd love to see their tax returns. I suspect that these fundies all use their ministries as a means of accruing tax free income. If Steve does have a stash of cash, he can easily make tax deductible donations to his own ministry. I also think that they manipulate the salaries of their employees so that the earnings come in below taxable levels. Once the family begins to shed tax deductions as the children age out to adulthood, these exemptions are a great tool for sheltering tax liability.

I think that if he has a ministry to which he can give money, there must be a tax record somewhere. And, they must have a business tax filing for all their businesses. Wish we could find that one.

[Witsec7]

I think that if he has a ministry to which he can give money, there must be a tax record somewhere. And, they must have a business tax filing for all their businesses. Wish we could find that one.

At one point I found a business registration for their ministry owned print shop at their home address.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

It's clear from various of their websites (including the One Ton Ramp) that Steve-O Enterprises is run as "Communication Concepts, Inc" (this is the official publisher of their books, also). If someone wanted to poke around, that's the company name to use.

[She Who Laughs]

I suspect that the hospital births are being covered in part by Medicare, as it's my understanding most hospitals are simply set up to apply for Medicare for anything beyond an uncomplicated vaginal birth if insurance is insufficient or nonexistent. I have no idea if the kids are on SCHIP or if the Maxwell clan is "trusting the Lord" aka the fact that they can't be refused care if they show up at a hospital emergency room.

That would be Medicaid, not Medicare.

[Snickerdoodle]

Do they get paid to be featured speakers at home school conventions?

[Seven Severn]

They have blogged before that Nate has consulting jobs with various small business.

This begs the question of what the hell does Nathan consult about? Is it computer stuff? Does he have any kind of legitimate credentials regardless of the topic?

[sparkles]

Well, to be fair, most of the independent/freelance IT people I know are all self-taught and without any "official" certifications or credentials. They just know their stuff. VERY well. And they're quite successful. On the other hand, when I wanted to learn web design, I took a well-known certification course that had been recommended to me that turned out to be the biggest waste of time and money. I ended up quitting halfway though.

The web stuff the Maxwells produce--the little I've seen--certainly isn't the best out there but it's not the worst either (same with Christopher's photography). And considering that it seems they will only work with like-minded fundies, who in the main don't strike me as the most technologically savvy bunch, the consulting and web design Communications Concepts provides could be just the ticket. Same with One Ton Ramp. The folks who sign up are probably very unaware of how many tutorials are out there for if you want teach yourself. At least I give the Maxwells props for launching a business that's part of this century. Because how many tree cutting or towing business can one fundie community need?

The one thing that WOULD concern me as a potential customer is what type of licensing and insurance the construction company has. I would never let anyone do work for me who wasn't fully licensed and insured, even if it wasn't required by the local authorities. Why take a chance? I don't think I've ever seen mention of either on the website, but again, maybe their target customer base doesn't care.

[Rosie]

It's clear from various of their websites (including the One Ton Ramp) that Steve-O Enterprises is run as "Communication Concepts, Inc" (this is the official publisher of their books, also). If someone wanted to poke around, that's the company name to use.

we-communicate.com/

Here's Nathan speaking on video:

itonramp.com/about/

He's kinda creepy.

[TMS]

Steve probably made pretty good money before he retired anyway - he was an electrical engineer. My dad is a retired electrical engineer and I lived pretty comfortably growing up. He also wasn't particularly thrifty like Steve though - we always had the latest models of everything (I was the first kid amongst my friends to have a personal computer - which was practically unheard of in the early 80's). My dad has a good friend, a fellow engineer he used to work with, who was much thriftier than him, and is a millionaire today just because he pinched pennies when he was young.

[TMS]

In Steve's book, Preparing Sons, on page 17 he writes a biological profile of a man he knows:

Steve has an electrical engineering degree. He spent twenty years in good corporate jobs. The last three years of his corporate work, Steve's oldest, homeschooled son, who had not gone to college, earned a significantly larger salary than his father.

Then, on page 24, he writes that "Steve" whom he had written about earlier was himself.

Things that make you go hmmmmm. :eusa-think:

[YPestis]

Well, to be fair, most of the independent/freelance IT people I know are all self-taught and without any "official" certifications or credentials. They just know their stuff. VERY well. And they're quite successful. On the other hand, when I wanted to learn web design, I took a well-known certification course that had been recommended to me that turned out to be the biggest waste of time and money. I ended up quitting halfway though.

Hm, I'm not sure I'd assume freelance/independent IT people, self-taught or otherwise, are more likely to be successful. Since anyone can call themselves freelance IT "consultants", that crowd also includes struggling tech people who do not have regular work. The IT friends from my techie days are Nathan's age, they are earning about $75k-$100k depending on location and are working for corporations. I use that as a baseline comparison of successful IT freelancers. I don't know if Nathan makes close to that mark. He bought his house debt-free after living and saving at home for several years. His house furniture looks donated from parents or bought from second hand shops. He uses Samaritan insurance, which indicates to me the penury state of fundies. Honestly, I think if most fundies could afford "traditional" insurance, they wouldn't do the Samaritan thing because it's such a hassle and doesn't guarantee coverage of many things. It makes me think Nathan would truly struggle if he had the typical expenses of a nonfundie family (mortgage, insurance, music lessons etc).

Nathan does have a bunch of Microsoft certifications. The family are big advocates of IT learning. They stress computer skills at a young age. I give them credence for not trying to find a 'back to nature' job like the Bates (tree cutting? how the heck do you support a mega-family with that?).

I think engineering and technology is one of the few fields that fundies truly flourish in. There's no evolution, Big Bang, age of universe issues that would make fundies screamish. Most can avoid the "Marxist" history and sociology requirements of college. It doesn't change their viewpoint of the world. Plus, those skill sets pay well. My experience has been when I hear of a smart and educated fundie, they typically trained or do something technical.

[denimjumper]

That video of Nathan speaking is completely creepy. He has a stilted way of speaking, either naturally or reading some sort of bad cue cards.

I am not sure anyone could take the part of about "humanistic secular culture" without laughing out loud.

What weirdos.

[denimjumper]

In Steve's book, Preparing Sons, on page 17 he writes a biological profile of a man he knows:

Then, on page 24, he writes that "Steve" whom he had written about earlier was himself.

Things that make you go hmmmmm. :eusa-think:

My husband is an electrical engineer. He's a very senior guy. There are also very junior level EE who are his age. The fact he did it for 20 years shouldn't be any indication of his salary. He could've been a test bench guy, he could have worked in an area outside his degree field. If Nathan is like his dad, he was probably also pretty darn creepy and never promoted.

[TMS]

My husband is an electrical engineer. He's a very senior guy. There are also very junior level EE who are his age. The fact he did it for 20 years shouldn't be any indication of his salary. He could've been a test bench guy, he could have worked in an area outside his degree field. If Nathan is like his dad, he was probably also pretty darn creepy and never promoted.

Yes, my dad was making a six-figure income when he retired in 1997, so I assumed Steve was too. Maybe not.

[Cassia]

All I can add to this topic is that the main Maxwell family makes a TON of money at their conferences.

I attended one last year ( :oops: ) and was stunned to see an endless line of women struggling to carry all the books and CDs in their arms up to the cash register. Literally, books falling out of their arms because they were holding so many...

[Sola]

Plus no cable tv, no salon hair cuts, no pricey wardrobes, no toys, no Pepsi, no entertainment, no joy.

They do, of course, have to rebuild the bus every time the drive it. I wonder how long they'll do that? Gas here is almost $4 a gallon--diesel more. When will it be cheaper to mooch a room at a church and haul sleeping bags in a normal church van instead? Plug the Crock-pot in in the Church kitchen or spare room and they're good!

$4 a gallon?

We only dream of such prices here! It's £1.40 a LITRE here, so that converts to around $11 a gallon!

[clibbyjo]

My sister runs a homeshool business and they also have a giant bus/motorhome so I have some idea why they use it. My sister's family can sleep all 8 of them and tow the trailer carrying their supplies at once so its a one bus and they are there. IF you try to get hotel rooms, they only allow a max. of 4 people per room if they are adults so the Maxwells would need at least 2 hotel rooms every time and at least 2 cars and whatever kind of trailer they would needs to tow with their supplies. With the bus ,you can cook meals as well,where eating out every meal for all those people would really turn into an expensive weekend at a homeschool show.

Now that 4 of my sisters kids are adults, she is selling the bus. She will sometimes send the oldest girls(yes, fundie SAHD's who drive alone gasp) to shows together in other states while she/her dh go to the bigger ones with the younger kids.

[Deleted03]

$4 a gallon?

We only dream of such prices here! It's £1.40 a LITRE here, so that converts to around $11 a gallon!

Sola a gallon in US = 3,78L so a gallon in UK =5,29pounds so about 8$ (still the double but not as much, and yes I thought it would be less but did not notice at first you were talking in pounds).

[SisiL78]

I'm going to throw out a few ideas:

1. I wonder if they don't convince some of the "the Elderly" to donate to them or leave them money in their wills. I've volunteered in nursing homes, people often abandon their older relations, and the Maxwells are there every week giving these folks time with babies and children. I wouldn't blame the elderly for being ready and willing to leave what they have left to the nice people who visit rather than the kids that abandoned them.

2. Are the Maxwell boys legally married to their wives? Could the Maxwell wimmen folk be getting welfare, WIC, or foodstamps by posing as unmarried mothers?

3. Could Steve be buying the houses, fixing them up and getting his sons to apply for HUD rent assistance? A co-worker of mine was getting 800 a month to rent his house through Section 8 assistance. I will admit I have no idea how the program works but he's getting 800 a month for the house he grew up in even though selling it (the neighborhood went downhill big time) would get him 10k-20k max.

I'm just throwing out a few ideas of how they make it. CHristopher's photography can't bring in more than a couple grand a year. He only does a few weddings a year. And, these fundies are pretty cheap. They aren't going to hire a pricey photographer.

I also think that they don't report a lot of their income. It must be pretty easy to not report the personal checks and cash they earn at conferences. They can also generate a lot of expenses like pretending to pay Sarah a salary that she doesn't actually earn. They could "pay" her just enough to avoid taxes, but not enough for her to generate income taxes on her side. Perhaps she'll pay social security so she can collect when she's older.

I have zero doubt that they are doing a few things that we would never do because they are shady.

[TMS]

Well, I am skimming through Steve's book (Preparing Sons) and he has a chapter called "Appetites" - which he says grow out of desire. So by starving "appetites" for certain things, you no longer want or need them in your life. This is one obvious way the Maxwells save a lot of money. If it's not serving God, or has no "eternal value," then they just don't do it, period.

The things he lists in this chapter that he says can "stir bad appetites" are:

- Entertainment

- Recreation

- Movies

- Television

- Spectator Sports

- Team Sports

- Hunting & Fishing

- Recreational Vehicles

- Eating*

- Vice (namely, pornography, alcohol, and cigarettes)

*OK, here's something interesting he has to say about eating:

Ouch. this one really hits close to home. My appetite for food was cultivated when my parents were divorcing, and I turned to food for comfort.

Then he goes on to say:

My excessive appetite has reproduced itself in several of my children, and all of them will likely struggle with it. The appetites of the parents will affect their children.

Think about all the ways an excessive appetite for eating will negatively affect your children as they grow. It will cause them to want to spend money on worthless treats that will harm their teeth. It will result in poorer health and, over the years, will increase medical spending. Spending will also rise because of eating out more often. Then there is the need to keep "growing" one's wardrobe. There are more consequences, but even these few examples make it clear that an excessive appetite for food will affect a father's ability to provide for his family.

So there you have it - why he seems to be so controlling of their food.

[Guest Anonymous]

Excellent spot, TMS, though it's also another sad way that Steve fucks over his offspring.

[lilwriter85]

Well, I am skimming through Steve's book (Preparing Sons) and he has a chapter called "Appetites" - which he says grow out of desire. So by starving "appetites" for certain things, you no longer want or need them in your life. This is one obvious way the Maxwells save a lot of money. If it's not serving God, or has no "eternal value," then they just don't do it, period.

The things he lists in this chapter that he says can "stir bad appetites" are:

- Entertainment

- Recreation

- Movies

- Television

- Spectator Sports

- Team Sports

- Hunting & Fishing

- Recreational Vehicles

- Eating*

- Vice (namely, pornography, alcohol, and cigarettes)

*OK, here's something interesting he has to say about eating:

Then he goes on to say:

So there you have it - why he seems to be so controlling of their food.

I've always been curious about the Preparing Sons book. Maybe I'll buy it used someday. The list of the "bad appetites" are things I've seen in other finance/money saving books and blogs. There was a mainstream Christian financial blog that I stumbled onto sometime back, the blogger did a whole list of things on "things that kids don't need". It was a lot like Steve's list, he listed team sports, music lessons, movies, etc on his list and several people commented about how they don't have their kids in sports, music lessons, etc. I don't think kids should be spoiled, but I do think kids should be given opportunities once in awhile to explore their interests or talents. It is easy to see why the Maxwells are doing ok money wise, but I feel sorry for the reversal kids because they haven't had opportunities to have hobbies, play sports, etc. I remember reading that Nathan and Christopher played sports and that Steve ran marathons before they became hardcore. Joseph, John, and Jesse probably believe sports is evil. Wasn't it mentioned that Anna or Mary likes to sew and do crafts? Poor girls could have taken some low priced arts and crafts classes over the years. You can find ways to have hobbies or activities that aren't extremely expensive.

[terranova]

Maybe Nathan is a stripper at night while the wife and kids are asleep.

Or a gigalo? I hear they make good dosh.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Not all "entertainment" needs to be expensive, either. The public library has a full selection of books, and these days movies as well. All that is 100% FREE (well, other than your property taxes you already pay). Ditto public pools and playgrounds. Like to play informal ball? A good-quality soccer ball or basketball isn't so expensive and lasts pretty much forever. Nets/hoops can be found at most parks, again. Hell, even the Beast that is TV is 100% FREE if you're just getting what's available over the air like we do, and considering that one thing they obviously DO spend $$$ on is a pretty good internet connection (because they need it for their webinars - I wouldn't be too surprised to find they shell out for business class cable internet or similar) they can find all kinds of documentaries to watch for FREE on YouTube same as I do. Plus they have iPhones, and the monthly charge for those isn't chump change (I know because I also have one - no hating from me). As for the RV, well, now they have Uriah, which is pretty much the same thing (though I agree it makes SENSE for them to have it, considering their business).

I can see how they do save money by not taking lessons or having cable TV or joining sports leagues.

But I think his "appetites" business is more than just that. They touch on "appetites in the "Hearts" book too, and it seems to be a moral thing, to not do anything that's going to take time away from religious studies/devotion. TV might be free, but it's filling your head with waste and it's unwholesome. Same goes for books - if they're not explicitly religious books or completely bland books that don't show anything outside of the officially approved Maxwell lifestyle (remember, this is the family that thinks mention of OTHER families having a birthday spanking or some kids sticking their tongues out is beyond the pale for their children, and who had a moral panic over a scene in a documentary that showed a FOREIGN guy going to his temple before making a dangerous climb) they're forbidden, period, doesn't matter if they're free from the library. Walking and pushups are encouraged for health, but heaven forbid you play pickup ball because you might waste time on it.

It's all very Puritan.

Add to that, one of their major underlying themes seems to be they don't trust anyone to be able to do anything at all in moderation or to set any sort of limits for themselves. (Just think of Teri with the Pepsi.) If you read books, you're going to run to porn and waste your life on it, if you eat tasty food, you're going to turn into a glutton who insists on eating out at the best restaurants every night, if you watch TV, you're going to find yourself spending hours every day following the most unwholesome dreck.

No, the only way to safeguard yourself is to not even take step one down that path because it has to be teetotaling or nothing. You can't let your kid have a treat now and then and tell them NO when they ask for a second one. It's just not even remotely a possibility in the World According to Steve-O.

As for the money, I suspect the major business is still the book sales (they sell a lot over the internet, apparently, even without so many of the seminars). That plus the One Ton Ramp are all included in Communication Concepts Inc. That'd be the business listing to look for.

[SisiL78]

Edited out b/c I thought I had posted to a different forum!