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    • Curious

      Guest Speaker 1.26.17 @ 8pm eastern   01/22/2017

      I am pleased to announce that we have are going to have a Q&A with an ex-evangelical on Thurs, January 26, 2017 @ 8pm.  The Q&A will last for approximately 1 hour.  I will be setting up a subforum for guest speakers as I hope to be able to get some other folks come talk to us. Our guest on Thurs will be Chris Stroop.  Here is his bio: Christopher Stroop grew up a rank-and-file member of the Christian Right in an Evangelical enclave community, Stroop's childhood social milieu consisting mostly of family and people associated with church and/or Christian school. From about the age of 16, Stroop found himself dealing with an increasingly acute crisis of faith that was not addressed properly by the people he talked to about it, and he was subjected to spiritual abuse. Stroop nevertheless went on to earn a BA in history and German from Ball State University (summa cum laude) in 2003, and then a Ph.D. in modern Russian History and Interdisciplinary Studies in the Humanities from Stanford in 2012. Subsequently, Stroop spent three academic years teaching in the School of Public Policy at the Russian Presidential Academy of National Economy and Public Administration in Moscow, where he kind of sort of almost got in trouble for "teaching Pussy Riot lyrics." Currently, Stroop teaches nineteenth-century European history and Russian Studies classes as a Provost's Postdoctoral Scholar at the University of South Florida and, as a freelance writer and public speaker, speaks out against the abuses of conservative Christianity in general and the the white Evangelical subculture he comes from in particular. You can find many of his writings in this vein on Religion Dispatches. If you would like to support this work financially, please click here (for monthly support) or here (to leave a one-time gift). Stroop's more academic writings can mostly be found here, and you can follow him on Twitter - @C_Stroop.   We are going to use the Q&A forum format.  I will be setting up a special forum just for Chris.  I will open the forum about 15 minutes before the Q&A starts so you can start asking your questions.   We have a few rules.  Failure to follow these rules will get you temporarily placed in the Prayer Closet so we can preview your posts.  If you get put in the PC during the Q&A you will be released once it's over, but lets just follow the few simple rules so none of that is necessary. Rules for Q&A: 1. Be polite.  This is not an event meant for snark.  Chris is taking time out of his busy schedule to talk to us.  He is an expert in the things we discuss here, so let's give him respect, please. 2. One question per post.   Please don't bog him down with a bunch of questions in one post.  We are using the Q&A format so he can easily answer questions.  Putting a ton of questions in one post defeats the purpose.   You can continue discussion on the thread as he answers and ask another question in the same thread if you have one after he answers. 3. Please try to keep thread drift to a minimum during the Q&A.  After it's over, if you want to continue discussion on the topics  and they drift, that's fine. 4.  Be polite! These rules are subject to change as I and the helpmeets think over possible loopholes (cause there is always one person that has to push boundaries)
choralcrusader8613

Lori Alexander 13: Transformed and Still Judgey

503 posts in this topic

In a past post, Lori and/or her fangirls talked about playing dumb so that the husband could save the day, making him feel more manly for taking care of the helpless female.  I told my husband about that, and he said that he would be angry if I ever did that to him.  He works long hours, and doesn't have time for gender role bullshit.  He wants me to act like an adult and take care of things that I need to do, whether those things are traditionally female or male.  That doesn't mean that he thinks that I can do everything, but that I shouldn't play stupid and not do things in order to make more work for him.

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Lori today talking about her orthodontist son:

"He learned to deny himself worldly pleasures at a young age to receive something better later in life."

In other words, he denied worldly pleasures at a young age to receive better worldly pleasures at an older age. This is suppose to be more Christian I guess? Of course the way she makes it look is that he was just such a good, Christian boy. Its just he rather delayed his worldly pleasures. 

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Or maybe he denied himself worldly pleasures so he wouldn't miss out on eternal happiness in heaven?

(Just a WAG.)

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If she is incapable of packing and leaving during a fire, is she really capable of homeschooling?  It's a miracle that her kids made it through college.

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I don't think Lori homeschooled that much. There are stories about the kids being in public school then some private Christian school. I am a bit fuzzy on it all, but like so many other things homeschooling is something she tells other moms to do but she skipped out on (at least in part). 

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“Parental emotional availability is the main nutrient for child’s brain.” How do children receive parental emotional availability the best? Having a mother who is home full time with them and homeschooling them. 

Says the woman who barely homeschooled and sent her children to their rooms for hours at a time so she had her own time. Says the woman who had nannies. Says the woman who's children feared her. 

Quote

One of my sons is an orthodontist and he had to work very hard to get there. Even when he was a young boy, he missed family vacations due to being a valuable asset to the sports’ teams he played on. 

One of these is not like the other. Rather sure sports did little to help him become an orthodontist. 

Quote

 When I homeschooled my sons through junior high, I took them to the beach to surf after they were done with their three hours of schoolwork. 

Just 3 hours? 3 hours of schoolwork a day? Really? It is seriously a miracle they made it okay in high school. Was the surfing before or after the couple hours in their rooms? 

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Lori homeschooled just enough to be able to say she homeschooled.:my_dodgy:

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, AlwaysDiscerning said:

Lori today talking about her orthodontist son:

"He learned to deny himself worldly pleasures at a young age to receive something better later in life."

In other words, he denied worldly pleasures at a young age to receive better worldly pleasures at an older age. This is suppose to be more Christian I guess? Of course the way she makes it look is that he was just such a good, Christian boy. Its just he rather delayed his worldly pleasures. 

Oh, please. He liked to play sports. Most boys do. Why is that such a godly virtue?

The fact that a teenager would rather play ball with his friends than attend a family vacation is not surprising. Not even much of a virtue. Maybe he wanted a break from having God shoved down his throat. Maybe it was more exciting to travel with his pals to a different city to play in a finals games, than it was to travel with Lori (I'm bringing my leather strap, kids!) and Ken (it's fine if the kids hear us have sex on vacation).

Steven's teenage sports accomplishments seem hugely important to both them and him. He was "successful" in sports in high school. Um, Lori, he went to a small private Christian school.. Is that the most competitive league around? He played baseball in college. Yes, but went to BIOLA. Is that a Division 1 school? (I have no idea). How many hugely talented baseball players attend a private Bible college?

If you look at the Alexander and Sons website, in Steven's section he mentions he was highly successful in school and sports. Someone needs to tell him that when you are in your thirties you stop bragging about making the cut on your high school baseball team. . .

I had a sibling who was successful in sports (at about Steven's level, I suspect). After high school, he never mentioned his high school performance (actually, he didn't even discuss it at the time). I knew about them through my mom, and even she didn't mentioned them after he'd graduated.. Sports were just something he enjoyed. Still enjoys, actually.

And Lori, you didn't homeschool your boys through middle school. They went to public elementary school. You homeschooled them IN middle school, because you were afraid the'd see porn, and you have admitted that meant making them read books and do math sheets. Heck, I could homeschool someone in another state that way, sounds like about a five minute commitment for the "teacher".

Edited by Hisey
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Yeah, adults stop bragging about school sports success when they are finished with school. They look pathetic otherwise.  Maybe Lori doesn't have many friends who are parents to know that bragging about your kids past glories is tacky! Honestly, her kids seem like they are average adults, which is perfectly fine. They were probably average, normal kids. But it is obvious that her self-esteem rests on things her husband and kids do, cause what are her own accomplishments? Nagging women over the internet? Preaching a warped version of one verse if the Bible?

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

And Lori, you didn't homeschool your boys through middle school. They went to public elementary school. You homeschooled them IN middle school, because you were afraid the'd see porn, and you have admitted that meant making them read books and do math sheets. Heck, I could homeschool someone in another state that way, sounds like about a five minute commitment for the "teacher".

Exactly.  Lori's kids went to public school (even during high school), private school, and were homeschooled for a bit.  She did not homeschool them all the way through school.  Not even close.

According to Lori, this is what "homeschool" looked like for her children:

Quote

 I homeschooled my boys for a few years in junior high and they loved it. I didn’t teach them homemaking during these years. They would read for several hours. I found good books for them to read like historical fiction, biographies of great missionaries, etc. Then they would do math for about an hour. 

So basically they read and had one hour of math.

Lori was also careful to make sure she had plenty of time for herself.

Quote

All my children had to be in their rooms for two hours a day resting or reading. Quietness is treasured by God.

But the real truth, is that quietness is treasured by Lori:

Quote

 they had to rest several hours a day...for my sanity!

So you have hours of reading and resting, and one hour of math.  Who knows how much of that hour was spent with Lori actively teaching.  She makes no mention of the other subjects they should have been studying during that time.  

Also, for all of her claims that her boys were happy and thriving during this time, she never says why she sent them back to school.

Quote

How do children receive parental emotional availability the best? Having a mother who is home full time with them and homeschooling them. Of course, this takes a mother who is disciplined enough not to allow too much screen time for herself and is available for her children. Many women tell me they are addicted to screen time. 

Right.  Says the woman who allowed her 5 year old to watch soap operas.

Quote

When I was a young mother, I would watch several soap operas. I would tape them every day so I wouldn’t miss an episode. During the children’s naps, I would watch people do things that are unbiblical and far from anything resembling purity. I was so addicted, however, that I was easily able to justify it by saying to myself that I deserved to be entertained and have time for just me. When Alyssa, my oldest, was five years old and no longer took naps, she began watching them with me. 

Quote

Children need to learn to work hard for what they want just as most adults must do. (This is why the entitlement culture we are presently living is so harmful for human beings; it takes away motivation to work hard.)

All I can say, is that if one was looking for lessons in hard work, Lori would not be the person to learn from.   

As for entitlement, Lori once said:

Quote

I would definitely describe myself as a taker.

Which is evident in everything she says and does.  

A prime example?  She doesn't believe in tithing, but claims that God owns everything, and expects the church to fully support widows.  

She'd be happy to take a check from the church, but it would never cross her mind to write one out.

Quote

I believe the best environment for children is in their home with their mothers full time. 

Translation:

Quote

I believe the best environment for children is in their home with their nannies full time. 

Quote

young mothers, have to be much more vigilant in helping your children have a healthy, well-rounded childhood.

Quote

I think they were actually afraid of me, which I don't necessarily think is bad.

Quote

 My children definitely feared us growing up.

 

Edited by Koala
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Posted (edited)

Quote

“Parental emotional availability is the main nutrient for child’s brain.”

Give me a flipping break. Lori plopped her kids in front of worksheets and sent them to their rooms so that she could have quiet time. She got a nanny so that she wouldn't have to hold them. And isn't she the one who called herself "cold" and "unemotional"? Emotionally available my ass.

 

eta: http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2014/04/black-and-white-unemotional-and-not.html

Quote

When I was raising my children, we all gathered in the cul-de-sac and watched the children play while us mothers talked together

 
 

*WE* mothers, Lori, WE. Clearly, you sucked as much at homeschooling as you do at any other kind of teaching. Good thing you really didn't do it long and sent your kids on to a private school where they could get at least some kind of reasonable education. 

46 minutes ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

Yeah, adults stop bragging about school sports success when they are finished with school. They look pathetic otherwise.  Maybe Lori doesn't have many friends who are parents to know that bragging about your kids past glories is tacky! Honestly, her kids seem like they are average adults, which is perfectly fine. They were probably average, normal kids. But it is obvious that her self-esteem rests on things her husband and kids do, cause what are her own accomplishments? Nagging women over the internet? Preaching a warped version of one verse if the Bible?

 
 

Narcissists see their family members as extensions of themselves. I suspect that she takes credit for every single thing her kids do. Unless that happens to be wearing those slutty yoga pants. In which case ... she just rants about it online. 

Edited by polecat
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10 minutes ago, Koala said:

I found good books for them to read like historical fiction, biographies of great missionaries, etc.

I'm assuming the pool of "good books" in their opinion was rather limited. Probably why she was finding books for them, usually by that age in school kids are selecting some of their own reading alongside the required books.

I remember reading lots of historical fiction at that age, including books we read for school. They often dealt with difficult issues from the past in an age-appropriate manner like slavery, the Holocaust, various wars, etc. as well as everyday issues that teens might face like bullying, racism, sexism, romance, etc. Somehow I'm guessing the vast majority of them would not be fundie-approved for their content, regardless of their message or teaching value. We also read biographies about scientists, civil rights activists, feminists... all sorts of interesting, influential figures of different genders, races, and religions!

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In today's post she states:

Quote

Even when he was a young boy, he missed family vacations due to being a valuable asset to the sports’ teams he played on. 

Why wouldn't they schedule the family vacations around his sports activities, so that the family could take vacations together?  It's not a true family vacation if they don't even bother to include their children - since she was a sahm and Ken was a consultant, it probably wouldn't have been too difficult to arrange trips around the family's schedule.  It seems like they couldn't be bothered with their kids' needs.

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She quotes a a guy who says "If you don't embrace modesty, you don't love your neighbor". 

That is just extreme, come on!

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10 minutes ago, crawfishgirl said:

In today's post she states:

Why wouldn't they schedule the family vacations around his sports activities, so that the family could take vacations together?  It's not a true family vacation if they don't even bother to include their children - since she was a sahm and Ken was a consultant, it probably wouldn't have been too difficult to arrange trips around the family's schedule.  It seems like they couldn't be bothered with their kids' needs.

My question is where did her superstar MVP son stay while the family went on vacation and he stayed home to save the day for his team?  Lori has written many times that they didn't allow sleepovers. Did he stay with grandparents? An aunt and uncle?  Or did he, like my son would have, drag his gear and a backpack to a teammate's house and go to and from the games with another family. Looks like a sleepover to me. 

And this "denying oneself worldly pleasures" thing - would that be like...say...a husband and father giving up basketball to be home with his children and ill wife?

Lori and Ken did not model sacrifice to their kids because Lori and Ken do not know how to sacrifice. 

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Tami says:

January 9, 2017 at 10:03 am

Hi Bev,
FYI…I am 51 years old, have been married for 31 years, and have a 10 year old son who has accepted Christ and has been baptized. God has called me to speak, write, and to teach. My husband has always supported me in all I do.

Wishing you a wonderful day. 
God Bless.

Reply

Lori Alexander says:

January 9, 2017 at 10:07 am

God never calls us to do something that is contrary to His clearly stated Word, Tami. I’m afraid you’ve been deceived in believing what you do.

Reply

Tami says:

January 9, 2017 at 11:13 am

Hi Lori,
I completely agree 100% with you that God never changes. I simply, with the utmost respect, disagree with you that I’ve been deceived. While God never changes, human being’s understanding and interpretation of Scripture differs and/or changes. You and I just disagree on the interpretation of Scripture. In the end, we’re each responsible and accountable to God for own walk with Him. I truly believe we’re all doing the best we can as we follow him. <3 *heart*

As always with respect and love,
Tami

 

This same Tami also shares this about her past:

Quote

 

My husband and I have been married for 31 years and we've always mutually submitted to one another. We make all decisions together. When we've been faced with a major decision and we come to an impasse, we table it for the time being, pray some more about it seeking God's direction and then come back together to discuss. We've always managed to make every decision together. When both partners have each others' best interest at heart it's easy to make decisions. Scripturarlly speaking, we're all to have an heart attitude of submission toward one another (Eph. 5:21). Yes, wives submit to husbands, husbands also submit to wives (Eph. 5:21 and vs. 25). Husbands are called to sacrifice (Eph. 5:25) for their wives which is essentially the same thing as submission. Submission and sacrifice involve the same heart attitude – love – which is setting aside our wants for the good of another.

*You said, "Submission doesn’t cause abuse. This is a modern day fallacy. Evil men abuse or men that have a problem with anger. God has told us in 1 Peter 3:1-6 that wives being in subjection to their husbands with godly behavior win their husbands without a word. Why would a husband want to begin abusing a wife who begins being cheerful with him, learns to please him, loves serving him and meeting his needs? No, it does the opposite. It draws husbands to their wives."

Speaking as an abuse survivor myself (emotional, verbal, spiritual, sexual) and one who works with and advocates for abuse victims/survivors the church needs to educate itself and understand the dynamics between an abuser and the victim. The abuser is never satisfied, they will always find something wrong with their victim. So no amount of continuing to quietly and cheerfully submit (we abuse victims are already masters at submitting so telling us to just submit more doesn't help), making sure he's happy will change anything. It actually causes the abuse to continue. The man/husband gets exactly what he wants – total control over the woman (abuse is always about power and control). If the woman keeps silent and doesn't speak up, the cycle of abuse continues. She must speak up, both for herself and the abuser. The abuser must be confronted and held accountable if there is to be hope for any real change on his part. Telling the woman to keep trying to please the abuser only further wounds and damages her, carrying on the cycle of abuse, causing her to believe the lie that somehow it's her fault so it's up to her to "fix" the man so he'll stop abusing her. The only way to stop any abuse is to speak up.

 

No response yet. 

But imagine that, Lori tells this woman she has been deceived because her beliefs don't match up exactly to Lori's. This woman is very respectful and seem very level headed, but alas.....

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6 hours ago, Free Jana Duggar said:

 

That said, I don't mind the man being the leader (I want a man to be a man and not a wuss), but a woman should at least know how to care for herself and make decisions in case she had to in an emergency.

My college roommate went on and on about how important it was for the man to "be the leader". Please explain what the hell that means because I listened to it from her mouth for years and never figured it out. Her requirements for it were rather vague. And how is a man not a man if he doesn't do whatever that means? And how is the man having to "lead" not just a slightly different way of advocating female submission? 

Over the holiday, my husband wanted to get a new computer. He planned to order a Mac Mini from Apple and pick it up at the nearest Apple Store. We weren't planning to be in the city until New Year's Eve, though, and our dinner reservation was long after the store closed that day. I suggested that we order it and pick it up the Thursday before since he had a short work day. I also suggested that we eat at a restaurant after where I wanted to get a gift card for my nephew's b-day. So that's when we ordered and picked up the computer. So...was I overstepping the bounds? Was I "leading"? Am I not allowed to problem solve for lack of penis? I know the people at Christian school would have been appalled by that since he should make all the plans. 

Seriously, please explain. 

 

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3 hours ago, Hisey said:

Oh, please. He liked to play sports. Most boys do. Why is that such a godly virtue?

The fact that a teenager would rather play ball with his friends than attend a family vacation is not surprising. Not even much of a virtue. Maybe he wanted a break from having God shoved down his throat. Maybe it was more exciting to travel with his pals to a different city to play in a finals games, than it was to travel with Lori (I'm bringing my leather strap, kids!) and Ken (it's fine if the kids hear us have sex on vacation).

Steven's teenage sports accomplishments seem hugely important to both them and him. He was "successful" in sports in high school. Um, Lori, he went to a small private Christian school.. Is that the most competitive league around? He played baseball in college. Yes, but went to BIOLA. Is that a Division 1 school? (I have no idea). How many hugely talented baseball players attend a private Bible college?

If you look at the Alexander and Sons website, in Steven's section he mentions he was highly successful in school and sports. Someone needs to tell him that when you are in your thirties you stop bragging about making the cut on your high school baseball team. . .

I had a sibling who was successful in sports (at about Steven's level, I suspect). After high school, he never mentioned his high school performance (actually, he didn't even discuss it at the time). I knew about them through my mom, and even she didn't mentioned them after he'd graduated.. Sports were just something he enjoyed. Still enjoys, actually.

And Lori, you didn't homeschool your boys through middle school. They went to public elementary school. You homeschooled them IN middle school, because you were afraid the'd see porn, and you have admitted that meant making them read books and do math sheets. Heck, I could homeschool someone in another state that way, sounds like about a five minute commitment for the "teacher".

I wondered about Biola and googled. It's listed as DI in NAIA, but the school's program was approved for provisional membership in NCAA DII last year and it looks the move will happen this year.  When Lori's son played for Biola, the conference was basically Christian colleges in Southern California. So it was probably competitive among those schools, but there probably wasn't any national attention for those schools.

I know a few people who played sports at DII and DIIi schools and they don't make a big deal out of it and I doubt they would put their sports history on a business website.

4 hours ago, dairyfreelife said:

Says the woman who barely homeschooled and sent her children to their rooms for hours at a time so she had her own time. Says the woman who had nannies. Says the woman who's children feared her. 

One of these is not like the other. Rather sure sports did little to help him become an orthodontist. 

Just 3 hours? 3 hours of schoolwork a day? Really? It is seriously a miracle they made it okay in high school. Was the surfing before or after the couple hours in their rooms? 

I'm guessing the surfing was after Lori's nap times. I have heard of other homeschoolers saying their days are 3-5 hours. The family who lived near my family had an 8 am to 2:30 pm schedule most days and the wife in the family said they had a lunch break.

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Yeah, but their sports experience wasn't like the average sports experience.  Ken used it to prepare them for war.  

Of course neither of them have spent as much as a day serving their country, but anyway...

Ken Alexander:

Quote

My being tougher on the boys had little to do with discipline of behavior and everything to do with teaching the boys about being tough, especially when it comes to pain. I coached my boys in many sports and when they got injured, I would put them right back into the game, sprained ankle's and all. Why? Well for a number of reasons, but the main reason was to grow them up to understand how to play through pain in life. If they could not continue I could easily see it and pull them from the game, but to not try was not being very manly. Sports was as close a training ground for a future world war as they might ever have, or for a job where they have to lecture all day with a splitting headache or stomach ache. 

Let that sink in for a moment. :pb_confused:

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13 minutes ago, Koala said:

Yeah, but their sports experience wasn't like the average sports experience.  Ken used it to prepare them for war.  

 

And that sort of "play through the pain" logic is exactly how "manly men" wind up in the hospital with a serious illness or injury, because they were so afraid of being labeled a "sissy" that they only seek help when an issue becomes unbearably painful and/or life-threatening. It's a terrible yet perfect example of why misogyny and sexism are harmful to men, too.

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56 minutes ago, Koala said:

Of course neither of them have spent as much as a day serving their country, but anyway...

Come now, @Koala, at least one is creating pretty smiles for Jesus and America! That's exactly the same thing as fighting for freedom and/or our national interests here and abroad.

Totally the same thing.

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I get that homeschoolers can have a shorter day than public schoolers, but reading books about historical figures and then an hour of math is not really homeschooling. Sure, you might be learning about historical figures, but that's not really a history lesson. 

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1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

 

Over the holiday, my husband wanted to get a new computer. He planned to order a Mac Mini from Apple and pick it up at the nearest Apple Store. We weren't planning to be in the city until New Year's Eve, though, and our dinner reservation was long after the store closed that day. I suggested that we order it and pick it up the Thursday before since he had a short work day. I also suggested that we eat at a restaurant after where I wanted to get a gift card for my nephew's b-day. So that's when we ordered and picked up the computer. So...was I overstepping the bounds? Was I "leading"? Am I not allowed to problem solve for lack of penis? I know the people at Christian school would have been appalled by that since he should make all the plans. 

Seriously, please explain. 

 

Submission doesn't mean you don't offer input and come up with a plan together. You had a very efficient plan.  

We are looking for a new house right now.  We both agreed we need a bigger place, yet we waited until he decided the time was right financially.  

We both needed work on our cars, but they were both still running. Yet I asked him which he thought was priority and followed his request to go ahead and have my car fixed since he said his could wait a little longer. 

I also follow simple requests such as setting his computer on sleep instead of shutting it all the way off or buy a certain brand of food etc.

It really is no major deal. I am free to speak my opinion, and he is respectful of my preferences as well.  Also, I could make decisions on my own if he were away or I'll.  

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22 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

I get that homeschoolers can have a shorter day than public schoolers, but reading books about historical figures and then an hour of math is not really homeschooling. Sure, you might be learning about historical figures, but that's not really a history lesson. 

If Lori was discussing the books with her sons, I might give her break. From what she has posted about homeschooling, she sounds like she was lazy about the whole homeschooling plan. Many homeschoolers include subjects like foreign languages, music, home ec/cooking, Bible or other religious study, and art. We know Lori would have been against her sons doing cooking lessons. If she is such a "wise Christian woman", why wasn't Bible study a part of her homeschooling program?

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More:

Quote

 

Tami says:

January 9, 2017 at 12:20 pm

Hi Lori,
I understand that verse (1 Tim. 2:12) to be a response from Paul to a specific church and specific situation at that time and not something that is meant for all women for all time. I see too many examples of Paul supporting women in leadership positions (leading, teaching, preaching, starting home churches) not to mention how God sees, treats, and works through women.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree – and that’s okay. I love you as a fellow sister in Christ and wish you well in all you do. <3 *heart*

Tami

Reply

Lori Alexander says:

January 9, 2017 at 1:39 pm

Paul made it very clear that the gift of teaching and preaching in the churches are given to men since the elder and deacons (those who teach and are in authority in the church) are to be the HUSBAND of one wife and no, all these instructions to the Church are not for one church only as you said. That would be ridiculous if Paul spoke this for only one church: to have women be silent and not teach nor be in authority over men in one church. Why? Did this church have super rebellious women that no other church has? You are manipulating Scripture, as many women today do, to fit your own likes and what you want to do instead of obey the clear teachings of the Bible.

 

Lori gives no love back to this woman, just nastiness!

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