Weird Fundy Rules for Dressing

[freejoytoo]

The reason why it's widely sociably acceptable for children to run around naked or in little clothing is because they are still innocent, for want of a better word, to the idea of modesty because they have not developed sexual awareness yet.

Is it true that in parts of America it's not okay for toddlers to go around naked? Because here children up to the age of four or five run around on the beach naked all the time, or just in swimming trunks. It's beyond me why people design bikinis for little girls. They don't even have breasts.

[MetalLaLa]

I find the statement about modesty not being an issue, and the whole paragraph about dressing as a complete contradiction in itself. Fundie families LOVE to preach about modesty being so important and a high priority. Yet, shouldn't 'modesty' also mean 'being allowed to get dressed in total privacy with the door closed' ? Like others have said already in a similar fashion, when I was a young child, I was bathed and dressed by my mother, sometimes with my sister who is three years older than me. However, when I reached about the age of six or so, I did all that by myself, completely alone, with the door shut. The thought of having to have the door wide open while I'm wandering about in my underwear or whatever when I was a teenager just annoys me to the max.

I wonder what the person who wrote the comment in the first place would have to say if a sibling accidentally came across another sibling, opposite gender, whilst dressing? That would definitely be an interesting perspective in terms of how they would explain it away.

[holothuroidea]

The reason why it's widely sociably acceptable for children to run around naked or in little clothing is because they are still innocent, for want of a better word, to the idea of modesty because they have not developed sexual awareness yet.

Is it true that in parts of America it's not okay for toddlers to go around naked? Because here children up to the age of four or five run around on the beach naked all the time, or just in swimming trunks. It's beyond me why people design bikinis for little girls. They don't even have breasts.

I think it is a toss up in the US. I personally think it's up to the child to decide what they are comfortable wearing and if I see a nude kid getting changed or on the beach or another situation where nudity would be appropriate I don't really care, it seems normal to me.

However, we have a blame the victim culture. So a child being an object of a pervert's attention becomes the parent's responsibility. Some people get up in arms when they see a naked child, or pictures of naked children because ZOMG WHAT IF THERE WAS A PERV!?

Some little girl's two peices are nice and convenient. I remember loving a little halter-skirt two piece when I was a kid because it made it so much easier to change and go to the bathroom, but when I see string bikinis for infants I'm just like... wha???

Girls wear swim tops I think because adult women wear tops, and little girls want to be just like their moms. I don't think it has anything to do with breasts or not breasts.

[freejoytoo]

I don't mean enforcing nudity if the child isn't comfortable, but most toddlers are happy to run around naked.

I had a swimming costume as a child but I think for very small children you don't need to design a two piece. IMO it's very much a modesty thing as it's covering their chest.

I remember my English teacher saying that she felt children have got more self-aware than when she was a child, as her daughter told her off for coming to talk to her when she was getting changed for a bath when she was around eight years old.

[SealFan1963]

OMG - these people really are perverted. Is sex all they think about? The thought of sex with my brothers makes me want to throw up - ew ew ew ew and my brothers and I took bath's together when we were little and sometimes even slept in the same bed.

My kids (boy and girl) took baths together and sometimes slept in the same bed when they were little. They even have rooms right next door to each other and sometimes they are upstairs ALONE!!!

There has even been an occasion when a BOY was in my 13 year old daughter's room (with the door open and other friends in there too).

Didn't people in Biblical times just basically walk around in sheets? No undies, no bras, just a sheet and some rope? Yet there was no yelling 'nike', no defrauding, and everyone pretty much slept in the same room in the same bed.

What about fundies who cosleep with their kids? If they have a toddler girl and then a baby boy, does the toddler girl get kicked out?

[holothuroidea]

I don't mean enforcing nudity if the child isn't comfortable, but most toddlers are happy to run around naked.

I had a swimming costume as a child but I think for very small children you don't need to design a two piece. IMO it's very much a modesty thing as it's covering their chest.

I remember my English teacher saying that she felt children have got more self-aware than when she was a child, as her daughter told her off for coming to talk to her when she was getting changed for a bath when she was around eight years old.

Wow, the word modesty has really lost all meaning, hasn't it? Sheesh. :lol:

I really think that parents who dress their little girls in baby bikinis do it for the same reason they dress little boys in baby tuxedos, because miniature people are super cute and mini grown-up clothes make people go "squee!"

I personally think it's a really bad idea, but I don't think it has to do with modesty.

[freejoytoo]

Sheesh? I'm not being hyper-aware about the word. I just don't think you really need two piece swimming costumes for small girls. I'm not trying to say that parents are buying them so that their daughters look modest, but that the reasoning behind its design is that girls should cover their chests and that boys don't need to.

[holothuroidea]

Sheesh? I'm not being hyper-aware about the word. I just don't think you really need two piece swimming costumes for small girls. I'm not trying to say that parents are buying them so that their daughters look modest, but that the reasoning behind its design is that girls should cover their chests and that boys don't need to.

My sheesh was directed at the universe. I read about "modesty" a lot, especially around fundiedom, and very rarely see it used in the right context. Not your fault.

When you say "two-piece" that could mean a lot of things. A swim shirt that covers the shoulder and then also shorts is really convenient for diaper changes and avoiding sunburn. String bikini's though? Don't get me started on that. "Stupid" doesn't even cover it.

It's not that little girl's chests need to be covered and boy's don't, though. It's that women cover their chests and men don't, and little girls will be encouraged to emulate women.

[Hane]

In total agreement with everyone who says these fundies are sexualizing things that aren't even sexual, and opening the doors to dysfunction, kink, and abuse.

Their problem is that they have no concept of subtlety-- things are either black or white. This woman is imposing the same kinds of "modesty" rules on very young sisters and brothers that most people would consider more appropriate to male/female adults who are total strangers.

Many of them have rigid rules for discipline/punishment--following what someone like Gothard or the Pearls tell them to do, and to the letter--disregarding the fact that children are individuals, and what works on one might be detrimental to another, or completely ineffective. And if the prescribed rules don't work, these parents are told, "Well, you must be doing it wrong."

[Conuly]

Is it true that in parts of America it's not okay for toddlers to go around naked? Because here children up to the age of four or five run around on the beach naked all the time, or just in swimming trunks. It's beyond me why people design bikinis for little girls. They don't even have breasts.

I would be very surprised to see a toddler running around naked in a public area. First, people would probably be concerned about potty accidents, and second you'd get a string of people warning you about pedophiles which, as we all know, lurk behind all the bushes :roll: (I think the whole stranger danger thing is well overblown, and quite honestly I think that anybody who pervs out over the sight of a naked toddler probably pervs out just the same if they're clothed.)

It's not that unusual to change a diaper in a visible or semi-visible area (much to the annoyance of everybody else, but if it must be done it must be done) or to quickly get them into or out of their clothes (though lots of people use towels for them to change behind if, say, they have to put on a bathing suit to go in the sprinklers). And toplessness in toddler girls, while uncommon, isn't generally held to be nakedness. (Legally speaking, in my state, women can go around topless just fine anyway. But women generally *don't*. There's this one woman who walks around NYC topless just to prove that she can, which is her own business, but most people who have heard her reasoning are just baffled by it because this isn't a city where men go around topless either. This is a city where people are reluctant to wear *shorts*, and let me tell you, in the middle of summer I sometimes find my ingrained idea that shorts are for children and tourists to be quite frustrating! But that's beside the point.) Frankly, I think a bikini top is much less "modest" than simple toplessness. What you hide is as important as what you reveal, and hiding non-existent breasts just... I don't know, I don't like it myself.

But yeah, they don't go around naked just for the heck of it in public places, not even parks and beaches.

And sometimes it can be ridiculous! Last year, my younger niece was in the 3 - 5 swimming class at the Y. She changed in the girl's locker room. Not the women's locker room, the tiny girl's locker room that's restricted to, well, children. Every week she'd take off her clothes and stand around naked while putting on her bathing suit, and afterwards walk around naked to dry her suit and all that. Every week the other grown-ups would not only insist on helping their same-aged children change outfits (something I flatly refuse to do) but do this whole rigamarole where they carefully did the whole "hide behind a towel" thing for their children to change.

For preschoolers! In the girl's locker room! Even if the child in question didn't care or realize why the towel was there! I thought that was the height of absurdity. This wasn't like they were anywhere near public. Under the influence of this BOTH nieces went through a stage of wanting to change in a very private way, until they moved themselves to the women's locker room and reverted to dancing around naked for two minutes until I tell them to get a move on. *sigh*

[CrazyCatLady]

my question in regard to raising children with this hyper-awareness of their sex differences at such a young age and making a big bloody deal about it with a million stupid rules (no closing doors, no privacy, having special changing areas, etc) is how the child would/will respond if they did happen to see an opposite sex sibling naked. Would they freak out? Would they feel ashamed? Impure? Would they be afraid that their parent(s) would find out? I can see children who are raised like this feeling very confused. I can also see parents going nuts if their children break the rules (intentionally or accidentally). it worries me that they are teaching their children that if you see an opposite sex person (relative or not) naked you will suddenly be unclean and/or become a sex crazed maniac unable to control yourself.

this also reminds me of my religious schooling while in high school art class the classic statue of David had his penis COVERED up on a slide show of classic art pieces. because seeing his tiny marble dick was gonna defraud us all!!!

[candycanehead]

ive never understood the weird focus on stuff like that...i have 6 boys and 1 girl, who shares a room with her brother, and i mean..its not big deal. i dont even think ive brought up anything about dressing/undressing..they grab their clothes in the morning, toss them on and thats about it. its not even an issue to really worry about.

i almost wonder if they like to micromanage every little tiny detail in their kids lives.

:?:

[freejoytoo]

Toddlers don't run around naked in parks or on the street here, but they often do on the beach or in someone's back garden. I often see toddler girls in just the swimming bottoms rather than the top as well - I think a paedophile is going to go after a child whether they're clothed or not (ugh) and them being more comfortable in the sun isn't going to change that. Obviously sun protection is another issue. On hot days my mother would make me wear a T-shirt over my swimming costume to make sure I didn't burn my back but not because she thought I needed covering up.

[alba]

And sometimes it can be ridiculous! Last year, my younger niece was in the 3 - 5 swimming class at the Y. She changed in the girl's locker room. Not the women's locker room, the tiny girl's locker room that's restricted to, well, children. Every week she'd take off her clothes and stand around naked while putting on her bathing suit, and afterwards walk around naked to dry her suit and all that. Every week the other grown-ups would not only insist on helping their same-aged children change outfits (something I flatly refuse to do) but do this whole rigamarole where they carefully did the whole "hide behind a towel" thing for their children to change.

For preschoolers! In the girl's locker room! Even if the child in question didn't care or realize why the towel was there! I thought that was the height of absurdity. This wasn't like they were anywhere near public. Under the influence of this BOTH nieces went through a stage of wanting to change in a very private way, until they moved themselves to the women's locker room and reverted to dancing around naked for two minutes until I tell them to get a move on. *sigh*

I've never understood why people do this to their kids. IMO it just fosters insecurity about one's body, and heaven knows there's enough of that without people expecting their preschool-aged girls to be covered at all times.

I'm so glad my mum never did this; how would I manage in the curtainless showers at the gym if she had? :P

[Soldevi]

From Scandinavian point of view - generally speaking - the way Americans deal with nudity is somewhat fascinating. Especially when it comes to children. I am always amazed when I read American blogs (some are fundies, others not) and some of them say that fathers are not allowed to have a shower with their children, especially so if a child is a girl. Some even reach it to diaper changing. Yes, paedophilia is a horrible phenomenon but assuming that everyone with XY (fathers and brothers especially) is a potential predator is awful. It is just...idk. I don't want to teach my possible children to be extremely aware of others and themselves or deny innocent nakedness.

These people would have a heart attack if I told them that Finns have a sauna together as a family - stark naked and some have a sauna together with their parents already when they are adults themselves. Very rare wears a towel in sauna and for example in swimming halls wearing swimming garments in sauna is strictly forbidden (chlorine vaporises + shower/sauna is mandatory before entering in the pool area). I swim a lot and tourists and change students are easily spotted in changing room. They are the ones who awkwardly change clothes behind a towel. And no, I don't think we have a very good self esteem. I don't, but I don't feel I should be ashamed to be naked in front of other naked people of my own gender. I don't know...for me it is normal to see naked toddlers in backyards or beaches or family members seeing others naked after shower and such. I don't remember we had rules where and when to change clothes or that we should leave doors open in our house.

This is a clear cultural difference. Finns are not anymore nudist types than any other nationalities (heck, 9 months out of the year we have snow somewhere in our country, being naked would mean having a thick skin, lol). This is just not something that is seen sexual in Finland. Sauna is an asexual place. If I generalise, kids start to have a sauna on their own when they are preteens and they start to feel the changes in their body. My brothers and I stopped having a sauna together or being naked in front of each others when we were 10-12 years old. It just felt natural and this was something we decided, not our parents. My husband never stopped having a sauna with his parents but then again, he was the only child. Hard for me to express but there are situations when being naked is normal and it is considered somewhat stupid if this norm is somehow broken, ie. not flashing a skin in a changing room but then wearing tiny-tiny bikinis in a pool...

[freejoytoo]

There were topless women all over the beach in France. I thought about going topless too but then I chickened out because I'm too much of a prude. Next time!

An American I met on holiday told me no one kisses in public in the states (French kissing, I assume). That surprised me. We're not as open as the French but you see people kissing in public.

[holothuroidea]

From Scandinavian point of view - generally speaking - the way Americans deal with nudity is somewhat fascinating. Especially when it comes to children. I am always amazed when I read American blogs (some are fundies, others not) and some of them say that fathers are not allowed to have a shower with their children, especially so if a child is a girl. Some even reach it to diaper changing. Yes, paedophilia is a horrible phenomenon but assuming that everyone with XY (fathers and brothers especially) is a potential predator is awful. It is just...idk. I don't want to teach my possible children to be extremely aware of others and themselves or deny innocent nakedness.

These people would have a heart attack if I told them that Finns have a sauna together as a family - stark naked and some have a sauna together with their parents already when they are adults themselves. Very rare wears a towel in sauna and for example in swimming halls wearing swimming garments in sauna is strictly forbidden (chlorine vaporises + shower/sauna is mandatory before entering in the pool area). I swim a lot and tourists and change students are easily spotted in changing room. They are the ones who awkwardly change clothes behind a towel. And no, I don't think we have a very good self esteem. I don't, but I don't feel I should be ashamed to be naked in front of other naked people of my own gender. I don't know...for me it is normal to see naked toddlers in backyards or beaches or family members seeing others naked after shower and such. I don't remember we had rules where and when to change clothes or that we should leave doors open in our house.

This is a clear cultural difference. Finns are not anymore nudist types than any other nationalities (heck, 9 months out of the year we have snow somewhere in our country, being naked would mean having a thick skin, lol). This is just not something that is seen sexual in Finland. Sauna is an asexual place. If I generalise, kids start to have a sauna on their own when they are preteens and they start to feel the changes in their body. My brothers and I stopped having a sauna together or being naked in front of each others when we were 10-12 years old. It just felt natural and this was something we decided, not our parents. My husband never stopped having a sauna with his parents but then again, he was the only child. Hard for me to express but there are situations when being naked is normal and it is considered somewhat stupid if this norm is somehow broken, ie. not flashing a skin in a changing room but then wearing tiny-tiny bikinis in a pool...

I hope you don't think all Americans are like that. I think most would not be okay with mixed-gender bathing, but most also don't have ridiculous rules for changing and avoiding nudity at all costs. I also think things are getting better.

I really wish we didn't sexualize nudity so much, and I do really hope that a generation from now people will be reasonable about it.

And I really want to go to a sauna, now. I haven't been since I was a kid in Minnesota (where, actually, there were quite a lot of Finns).

[freejoytoo]

There is more of an insinuation, I've found, that in the states nudity= sexuality even in a non-sexual context.

[holothuroidea]

There is more of an insinuation, I've found, that in the states nudity= sexuality even in a non-sexual context.

Yeah, and it really needs to stop. What's worse is the sexualization/fetishization of breasts.

Sexuality in America is a minefield of leftover puritanism and patriarchy, and fundies romanticize those bygone "values," and take them to an extreme.

[Esther]

From Scandinavian point of view - generally speaking - the way Americans deal with nudity is somewhat fascinating. Especially when it comes to children. I am always amazed when I read American blogs (some are fundies, others not) and some of them say that fathers are not allowed to have a shower with their children, especially so if a child is a girl. Some even reach it to diaper changing. Yes, paedophilia is a horrible phenomenon but assuming that everyone with XY (fathers and brothers especially) is a potential predator is awful. It is just...idk. I don't want to teach my possible children to be extremely aware of others and themselves or deny innocent nakedness.

These people would have a heart attack if I told them that Finns have a sauna together as a family - stark naked and some have a sauna together with their parents already when they are adults themselves. Very rare wears a towel in sauna and for example in swimming halls wearing swimming garments in sauna is strictly forbidden (chlorine vaporises + shower/sauna is mandatory before entering in the pool area). I swim a lot and tourists and change students are easily spotted in changing room. They are the ones who awkwardly change clothes behind a towel. And no, I don't think we have a very good self esteem. I don't, but I don't feel I should be ashamed to be naked in front of other naked people of my own gender. I don't know...for me it is normal to see naked toddlers in backyards or beaches or family members seeing others naked after shower and such. I don't remember we had rules where and when to change clothes or that we should leave doors open in our house.

This is a clear cultural difference. Finns are not anymore nudist types than any other nationalities (heck, 9 months out of the year we have snow somewhere in our country, being naked would mean having a thick skin, lol). This is just not something that is seen sexual in Finland. Sauna is an asexual place. If I generalise, kids start to have a sauna on their own when they are preteens and they start to feel the changes in their body. My brothers and I stopped having a sauna together or being naked in front of each others when we were 10-12 years old. It just felt natural and this was something we decided, not our parents. My husband never stopped having a sauna with his parents but then again, he was the only child. Hard for me to express but there are situations when being naked is normal and it is considered somewhat stupid if this norm is somehow broken, ie. not flashing a skin in a changing room but then wearing tiny-tiny bikinis in a pool...

I agree. I'm from Belgium, and it really baffles me that anyone would think it wrong for a four or five-year old girl to take a shower with her dad. I took showers or baths with either of my parents all the time until I was six or seven, and with my brother and younger cousins (all male) until I was ten or so, and nothing inappropriate ever happened. It was just more convenient that way and we didn't think about it in a sexualized way.

Actually, now I think about it, when I was 12, I went on a summer camp and to save time and hot water, the camp counselors made us shower in groups of three or four. Oh no, four naked 12-year old girls in a big shower together! SEEING EACH OTHERS' BODY PARTS! PERVERSION!

... Yeah, I'm not traumatized. :)

[freejoytoo]

I remember starting to be aware of my body when I was about 12, I don't think I would have wanted to shower with other people because I'd have felt embarrassed. I remember we had a communal changing room and we had this strange way of changing which ensured that NO ONE saw your bra!

I bathed with my mother as a child but not my dad, I think.

[maybeizfundie]

You wouldn't know to look at me, but I also find these kinds of rules weird. It's not that hard to teach kids propriety. And it is so not a big deal. Makes me wonder if people who have these stringent rules experienced or observed some kind of nasty abuse stuff in their own family, and are fearful of it recurring?

In my family of origin, we are all very private, but it wasn't a rule. We all just retreated and shut the door when changing. :) With my own kids, they've bathed together, and change in their room together, door open or closed, whatever they want. I've noticed the older two moving on their own to more modesty, so they will go in a corner to change, or kick their brothers out of the room for a minute, or just tell them "Don't look, I'm changing!" But mostly it's me they don't want looking, lol.

[Soldevi]

I hope you don't think all Americans are like that. I think most would not be okay with mixed-gender bathing, but most also don't have ridiculous rules for changing and avoiding nudity at all costs. I also think things are getting better.

I really wish we didn't sexualize nudity so much, and I do really hope that a generation from now people will be reasonable about it.

And I really want to go to a sauna, now. I haven't been since I was a kid in Minnesota (where, actually, there were quite a lot of Finns).

Nope. It would be so easy to to generalise that Americans are all alike. The image we get from media, TV, movies, Internet and tourists is always a little twisted. I still hate those twats in the British museum where tourists speaking with wide American accent let their children climb on sculptures or in fountain in Nuremberg but luckily I have met really nice Americans in backpackers' places :)

And let's not forget, this forum is a place of reason! I have learned much of your culture and everyday life in here.

We just don't understand some phenomenons like it is totally ok to see violence from early on but showing bare skin like boobs puts film/TV show higher in rating system whereas here seeing a naked person in non-sexual context is normal. Only very openly or continual erotic scenes or acts raise age limit. The worst experience was with The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe where there were horrible violence but because blood was not seen, it was rated PG...

I love having a sauna. I would love to be able to be go daily but in this apartment we don't have our own sauna (our housing company has two and I can use them twice a week) and my sensitive skin doesn't like daily sauna visits :(

[freejoytoo]

I second this. I find it crazy that so many Americans advocate gun control and are perfectly okay with violent cartoons but act like a glimpse of breasts is a perversion. I would MUCH rather my child saw a sex scene than someone getting their head blown off.

[CynicMom]

Is it true that in parts of America it's not okay for toddlers to go around naked?

True. The park workers at a local childrens playground told me off a few months ago for letting my two-year-old run around naked. They cited hygiene but the truth was she was just making them uncomfortable. I let them go naked at the beach but only if no one else is around. It's considered highly abnormal behavior (southern US).