Snark-Worthy Video on Modesty & effect of bikinis on men

[SimplyMe]

A Facebook friend posted this today (she's LDS) and is getting nothing but praise for posting such a wonderful and educational video. I think it's interesting that the photos had the women's heads cut off. I would think that naturally, that would depersonalize them.

Some of the comments are even better than the video.

themodestmomblog.com/2012/05/what-men-think-about-bikinis/

Thoughts?

Oops- edited to remove the www.

[SimplyMe]

I appreciate this comment:

There is something to be said about a guy learning to look at a girl in the eye no matter what she is wearing. I was apart of a homeschooling group that some would consider exrtreamly modest. Trust me my mind could wander even surrounded by girls modestly dressed.

To put on women the responsibility of men’s inner thought life is wrong. I as a guy am responsible for what I think about and let run around in my head. Learning to look a lady in the eyes no matter what she is wearing is a discipline that must be learned. I am not saying that you should not be cognisant of what you wear for your own consience.

I hope you see where I am coming from. If you walk out into the world, a guy has got to learn to handle his eyes, and also the difference between seeing beauty and lusting. I will freely admit that I have lusted over many a christain girl in a modest top and skirt. As I have gotten better, not perfect mind you, I have been able to look a girl in the eye and not even know she was wearing a “revealing†outfit if you will.

All this to say we are called to freedom, and not added bondage. So where ever the balance is I hope you can find it.

In growning up in a really strict home, with a strict program, I heard the thinking that when a girl got raped she must have been wearing something that made the guy rape her. This is the extream of the thinking which I hope makes the point. The guy was a rapist no matter what the woman was wearing. If a guy has a lust problem, no matter what woman he see’s that tempts his lust, he will lust after her. Don’t put the responsibility of our fallen natures on what a girl wears or doesn’t wear. This is also a control teaching for men to rein in their women. I know of times where this type of teaching has been used as a form of abuse. So please, know I am only trying to bring some balance to this issue of modesty.

I hope this is helpful, I look forward to some good conversation.

Allin K.

[SimplyMe]

Just going to try to bump this once- I thought it'd make for interesting discussion.

I don't personally wear bikinis anymore, though I did for many many years. At this point, a little modesty on my part is probably appreciated by others at the pool and beach. Not sure any man would be oogling over a 35+ year old, slightly overweight, slightly cellulitey woman's body.

[samithemage]

I usually wear a tankini, because I have a very long torso, so most one pieces ride up uncomfortably. I usually try to find a long tankini with boy shorts. Not that I'm concerned about teh menz lusting after me. I just feel more comfortable that way.

[SimplyMe]

I find this study interesting because it is done by a large secular university. It's not the typical fundie argument about causing me to lust- it actually indicates that a woman showing too much skin is dehumanized in the man's mind. Does anyone think there is truth to that? And if so, wouldn't you think men should be able to train themselves to not let this happen? I also wonder if the women that were dressed in modest clothing, also had their heads cut off. If not, that isn't a valid study because I would think cutting off a person's head would objectify them whether scantily clad or fully clothed.

I wish the Duggars and their ilk could read the response I posted above.

[kpmom]

The fact that they cut the pictures of the women's heads off and showed these guys bodies only makes me give no further attention at all to this "study". The conclusion drawn was the men "objectified" these women, and looked at them as less than human. Uh, yeah, they had NO HEADS! And they couldn't exactly look them in the eye, could they?

What bull

[DarkAnts]

So men relate women in bakinis to tools. I think that people who believe this are tools.

The speaker needs to go back to history class. Women were wearing bikinis back in ancient greece

[SimplyMe]

The fact that they cut the pictures of the women's heads off and showed these guys bodies only makes me give no further attention at all to this "study". The conclusion drawn was the men "objectified" these women, and looked at them as less than human. Uh, yeah, they had NO HEADS! And they couldn't exactly look them in the eye, could they?

What bull

I have to rewatch this- did it say the heads were cut off on only the women in bikinis? Because if so, yeah, it's totally a flawed study, but if the heads were cut off on the modestly dressed women too, maybe not as much. Even then, I still don't buy it entirely, but it's a more interesting argument than the whole "lust" argument that most fundies make.

[alba]

I have to rewatch this- did it say the heads were cut off on only the women in bikinis? Because if so, yeah, it's totally a flawed study, but if the heads were cut off on the modestly dressed women too, maybe not as much. Even then, I still don't buy it entirely, but it's a more interesting argument than the whole "lust" argument that most fundies make.

Why cut the heads off at all? It presents a false situation, because men don't encounter women walking around with their heads cut off in everyday life. Wouldn't a more accurate study have pictures of the same women in bikinis and modest clothing, faces included?

[samithemage]

Why cut the heads off at all? It presents a false situation, because men don't encounter women walking around with their heads cut off in everyday life. Wouldn't a more accurate study have pictures of the same women in bikinis and modest clothing, faces included?

I did wonder about that. Women in bikinis with their heads cut off seems as though it primes men to think of these pictures not as women, but as objects. It seems like a flawed study

[ADoyle90815]

So men relate women in bakinis to tools. I think that people who believe this are tools.

The speaker needs to go back to history class. Women were wearing bikinis back in ancient greece

My guess is that they would blame the bikini as one of the reasons ancient Greece and Rome both fell.

[samithemage]

What with all those scantily clad pictures (probably produced by men) the proper manly men of Greece and Rome lost all ability to control themselves and set off raping women across the land, and it totally wasn't their fault. It was those scantily clad women's fault. Men couldn't possibly control themselves, what with seeing such scantily clad women. It's well known that even though men are supposed to be the headship over women, that the tiniest bit of womanly flesh sends them into a lust filled frenzy, but they should be responsible for women's modesty...somehow...in a way that doesn't make sense at all. Or we could just hold men responsible for their actions...but that's crazy talk.

[B5SnowDog]

I usually wear a tankini, because I have a very long torso, so most one pieces ride up uncomfortably. I usually try to find a long tankini with boy shorts. Not that I'm concerned about teh menz lusting after me. I just feel more comfortable that way.

I wear a rashguard and men's board shorts. I burn very easily, so I like the extra coverage.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I find this study interesting because it is done by a large secular university. It's not the typical fundie argument about causing me to lust- it actually indicates that a woman showing too much skin is dehumanized in the man's mind. Does anyone think there is truth to that?[ And if so, wouldn't you think men should be able to train themselves to not let this happen? I also wonder if the women that were dressed in modest clothing, also had their heads cut off. If not, that isn't a valid study because I would think cutting off a person's head would objectify them whether scantily clad or fully clothed.

I think there could be a grain of truth to it... it's been shown that many, many types of conditioning affect the way the brain functions (exposure to violence for example). Anecdotally I've known women who seemed to think of men as exclusively sexual objects, too, though in far fewer numbers, which I believe has a cultural cause.

None of that excuses the behavior that results from one feeling lust, though.

[reckoner]

I find this study interesting because it is done by a large secular university. It's not the typical fundie argument about causing me to lust- it actually indicates that a woman showing too much skin is dehumanized in the man's mind. Does anyone think there is truth to that? And if so, wouldn't you think men should be able to train themselves to not let this happen? I also wonder if the women that were dressed in modest clothing, also had their heads cut off. If not, that isn't a valid study because I would think cutting off a person's head would objectify them whether scantily clad or fully clothed.

I think there's probably some truth to that and it probably has to do with the way men (and women) are socialized. Men see music videos, movies, advertisements and tv shows that depict scantily clad women as objects (and some men - the fundies - are explicitly taught that immodestly dressed women are less than), and so men (consciously or not) make that connection in their brain (or rather, their brain makes that connection for them). Also, having the heads cropped off probably doesn't help, as others have mentioned. I do think that most men don't consciously think that way though and are easily able to overcome it.

[jaynie]

I think there's probably some truth to that and it probably has to do with the way men (and women) are socialized. Men see music videos, movies, advertisements and tv shows that depict scantily clad women as objects (and some men - the fundies - are explicitly taught that immodestly dressed women are less than), and so men (consciously or not) make that connection in their brain (or rather, their brain makes that connection for them).

Yeah, this is basically what I was thinking. If it were some inherent property of female flesh that it makes men think of women as objects, I think we'd see more objectification in cultures that bare more flesh (like many tribes around the world, and like in countries that are totally cool with nudism), and less in cultures that cover up more (usually deeply religious cultures I think, though I suppose less religious people from very cold places would probably be included as well). That doesn't really seem to be the case, though.

[rachelsmith1989]

I think the big issue with the study was the images shown to (let me emphasize quickly college aged) male subjects (from the same university conducting the research, which is suspiciously narrow in scope of subjects, interestingly enough) had their heads cut off, much like when news broadcasts omit heads of people who are obese. Could their be some correlation between the apathy of the obesity epidemic ("it's not me, it's the random person without their head walking along the street") and the supposed carelessness of men when shown images of women in bikinins? There might not be, but there's a huge difference in the "humaness" taken out of a body when a person's head isn't attached.

It's interesting the the speaker in the youtube clip would compare bikini wearing to underwear usage. You don't expect guys to get covered up in half of their body is exposed, yet underwear and trunks are similar in design. Of course people are going to assume the same design applies to women, with notes made earlier regarding the cut and shape of a swimsuit. It's the time and place that makes a huge difference. Naturally people are going to want to cool down by the beach and swim wearing swimsuits, but he makes it sound as if women can flaunt bikiniwear, then they can do it anywhere, which is ridiculous.

Why would he turn the tables on women (aside from "modesty")? Lord knows, there are plenty of guys who fantasize about what underwear women are wearing fully clothed....

I do like the first comment on here which was directed more at mens' responsibility rather than blaming women. We don't hear enough of that in sermons today...

[SisiL78]

I've heard men refer to women in really dehumanizing ways so I believe it. I work with mostly men and while I now work with mature adults I used to spend all day in a shared office with 20 something year old d-bags. They'd talk about women (as if us chicks couldn't hear them over our cube walls) as if women were objects. Honestly, I started dressing even more modestly than normal because I felt judged by these guys. But, the thing is that they talked at length about women in the other offices too. And I saw these women wearing mostly cardigans and pants or below knee skirts. One of their "objects" wore thick tights and long sleeves even in summer... but that didn't hide her generous bosom and shapley figure.

But, the fact is that these guys have been trying to get women out of bathing suits for years. And not just bikinis but even the more modest and practical swimsuits too. I suspect that they'd want women off of beaches altogether ala certain Arab countries. I'm not sure how LDS go to the beach at all considering that they have to wear clothing to cover up their special sacred undies. I'd think that would be a tough one for men and women alike (can someone enlighten me on this? The interwebs has conflicting information).

Anyhoo, I wonder how the study would turn out in a place like Holland. There women walk around half naked and women can sunbathe topless. But, my friends there (many of whom are 20 something men) don't objectify women at all (at least not that I've seen). I think that the only example of women being objectified that I saw there was in the dwindling red light district, but prostitution is commodifying women and I've been told that they see more tourist customers than they do Dutch customers.

Doesn't objectification just boil down to society and how it teaches men and women to treat each other? If these men are taught from birth that women are there to please them then they'll objectify them. But, if they are taught that women deserve respect and we all make different choices in our dress and clothing does not indicate our worthiness or lack thereof then they'd grow up to not objectify women in bikinis?

Sorry for the rant... I'm all riled up today.

[geniebelle6901]

LOL!! For a minute there I pictured men in bikinis before I actually read the thread! :lol:

[genericJname]

I'm wondering if my flabby stretch marks would diminish the cortex-numbing effects of me in bikini. :?

[Anise]

I've been in a mixed (fundie and nonfundie) group discussing this video before. Oh how they love it.

My problem with it is mainly how the speaker uses the study. Instead of concluding that the society has problems if women are so dehumanized, and thus Christians should seek to show the same kind of respect and kindness to everyone no matter what he/she is wearing, the speaker concludes that men just can't biologically help it and that it's the fault of women if they are being dehumanized.

[emmiedahl]

This comment is atrocious and really begging for someone to call her out. I cannot believe none of these good Christian women have not done it themselves, because it is that bad.

I like that video. What he says makes a lot of sense! Great reminder to all women…if you want to be treated well, act the part and *dress* the part! Modesty is a blessing for us, too.

And this commenter is actually teaching her son to feel butt-hurt over how strangers dress.

We were watching a show on TV and a commercial came on with a woman wearing a bikini in it…my 6 year old son said in an alarmed, aghast tone “mommy, that girl is wearing her underwear!†We then got into the conversation of modesty. In the end he was frustrated that some woman wear bathing suits that look like under clothing.

And last:

Dress how you want other women to dress around your husband.

Fine, that means I can dress however I want. I trust my husband to be loyal if a naked woman came up to him at the grocery store and started giving him a lap dance. *He* is the one responsible for his eyes and his actions.

[BlondeAgent007]

funny, wasn't there quite a bit of homosexuality going on in greek culture? Lots of their art portrays it. I would think with such scantily clad women there would be virtually no homosexuality.

Parts of me thinks that clothing and limp hands aren't at work here.

As to the subject.... no heads, not fair game. They should do a study of just head shots, to see if a guy can tell if a girl is a harlot or not based on her looks. that would show real countenance.

[BlondeAgent007]

my bad.... wouldn't that be a beauty contest?