Maxwell's managers of their homes

[doggie]

what is terry's job if it is not to protect her children? be steve's toby I guess.

[Elaine]

My experience with almost all the "big name" fundies I've ever met at homeschool conference has been one of coolness and aloof distraction at best and outright rudeness at the worst. My huisband and I were never fundies like the Maxwells, but we did attend an IFB church and I wore dresses (denim jumpers!!!) for over 10 years. My girls had hair to their butts...all the things we were supposed to do. Still, these big know-it-alls don't appreciate their "followers" enough to be kind to them in passing.

Met the Maxwells, maybe 2003. Steve was a rude ass. Terri was sweet and "meek." She sat and talked with me for quite a while. The girls were polite, but overworked (this was at a state homeschool conference).

Met Ken Ham, 2003. Very abrupt, as if he had no time to be bothered. On the other hand, I met Jonathan Sarfati (another creation guy) just recently. He was genuinely funny and very helpful.

Met Doug Phillips (and Beall), maybe 2001. Don't get me started. Bad business practices. Made my husband particularly angry, and he usually is hard to tick-off. Beall, although she was huge and wearing a blue maternity gunny-sack, was likewise irritating (we passed it off as pregnant and at a hs conference, though). We have actually seen him several times (he's a big deal on the state conference circuit). His speeches are totally canned--exactly the same every time. Likewise with Ken Ham.

Met the Duggars this year in Cincinnati. My husband lost any respect he ever had for them (wasn't much) when the announcement came over the loudspeaker in the exhibit hall: "The Duggars are now available for pictures and autographs. For the sake of time, they will only be signing copies of their book. If you don't have one, there are a limited number of them for sale near their table." Really??? It takes MORE TIME to sign something besides their own book?? It's just too time consuming to sign a paper? Oh, and Grandma Dugger was selling the books. Oh, again, you couldn't take any pictures unless you stood in line. None. And Josh and Anna hung out at the ATI booth for about an hour. I totally understand why you all call him Smugger. She was a little flaky, but, boy, do they all know who pays the rent, so to speak. They gave my kids ATI pamphlets and turned every comment into a sales pitch.

I'm sure they are different with people they consider "friends," but I think it's more telling that they are rude or arrogant to strangers--especially ones who made a special trip to see them or buy their materials.

Looking back over what I just wrote, I guess it's not too hard to see how we became disillusioned with the whole thing.

[persuaded]

These are the assholes who mourn abortions and fallen service members together, right? Fuckups.

A former church friend used their scheduling system for a few months but said it wasn't anything special. It didn't look all too different from their first schedule system, honestly, and that was handmade.

I don't know why fundies seem to think scheduling is rocket science, just get some construction paper and a marker, seriously. If you need to spend large amounts of time and/or money on scheduling system for your kids and home, you're probably not doing it right. Maybe ask those evil heathen public school teachers for help, the ones that schedule 25+ kids everyday without martyring themselves over it or buying special kits.

With all due respect Kelya... and you know I do respect you♥... public school teachers don't have to buy special scheduling kits because they have been trained in classroom management. When I was in college we actually spent more time learning how to run a classroom than on educational theory or methods. While scheduling isn't rocket science and it does come naturally to some folks, some of the rest of us appreciate a bit of help. Our family functions best on a schedule, but getting one put together that actually works in real life was more than I was able to manage on my own. I'm kinda organizationally challenged.... I secretly suspect I may have undiagnosed ADD... or something. :?

edited to correct a really irritating (at least to me) grammatical error

[Justme]

I agree with you here. Steve and Teri have never been anything but polite to me and my family. Steve has shaken hands with me and he has hugged my mother. I do email back and forth with Teri and consider us friends. I have challenged Steve a time or two, one time I remember was before Uriah entered the picture. They were traveling to a funeral, in another city, where Steve was speaking and the family singing. The boys, Christopher, Joesph and John, suggested they take two cars, but Steve wanted them to all go in the mini van for this 4 hour drive. They could not all fit in the van and everyone have a seatbelt. I challenged Steve on this decision and Teri too for allowing him to place their children in danger. Steve responded to me that God directed his decision. Teri reponded that it is not her role to question Steve, as Steve takes all direction from God. While I disagree, I didn't argue it further with them. They are who they are. I am a friend of the family, but that does translate to meaning I am just like them.

I remember when they were recording their CD in the middle of winter. On more than one occasion, they posted they had to drive to/from the recording studio in the middle of a blizzard/storm and they were asking for "safe driving" prayers. Most people would have rescheduled. Not only did they put their own lives in danger, they put that of the recording person(s) who also had to drive to the studio.

[gracegrace]

Met the Duggars this year in Cincinnati. My husband lost any respect he ever had for them (wasn't much) when the announcement came over the loudspeaker in the exhibit hall: "The Duggars are now available for pictures and autographs. For the sake of time, they will only be signing copies of their book. If you don't have one, there are a limited number of them for sale near their table." Really??? It takes MORE TIME to sign something besides their own book?? It's just too time consuming to sign a paper?

I can't believe I'm starting the week off by defending the Duggernaut. But it's not uncommon in my experience (all non-fundy) for an author signing to be limited to the author's books. I have two friends who are successful enough to have lines at their book signings. First of all, in their world the publisher and the bookstore pay their travel expenses for signings, so of course those businesses want to sell books. Second, it really *does* save time because otherwise some people come in with huge stacks of things and ask for personalizations to half the people they know.

That said, I do think that a big issue for all these folks is the link between their faith, their kids, and their business. How on earth can you let your children grow into independent souls when your business plan depends on them following the Family Vision? So Sarah Maxwell climbs onto Uriah for another trip, Anna Sophia works on her book, Jana Duggar smiles for the camera, and Liberty Phillips is stuck on another tour bus. And the same thing for their brothers. They're all shilling for their parents.

[sableduck]

So I was talking to my mother a little about this book, since she has it, and it turns out that she and Teri were friends back in the day. My family was large and homeschooled, but my parents were firm believers in extra curricular activities, college, friends outside the family, and not wearing dresses unless we wanted to. Teri and Steve knew all this and remained friends anyway. my mom did say though that she saw a change in Steve over the years from a genuinly nice guy to a rigid legalist, and that is probably why her friendship with Teri died down. She believes there is a form of mental illness in that family, not just depression, but something that turned Steve into an isolationist. She says that Teri is a sweetheart and is genuinly mellow, and Steve's personality will just run right over her. It sounds like Teri has some misguided ideas about submission a well(full discliamer: my husband is a fundie and for the sake of our marriage and his understanding of Scripture him. But not when it's wrong and/or putting my life or our chidlren's lives in danger. And he always knows my opinion.)

[kpmom]

This is such an interesting discussion to me, as the Maxwells were my "gateway fundies", so I'm always interested in what they are up to, and how people who know them think about them.

Someone on the other board posted a link to their Corners from the late 90's. Reading them, and reading recent Corners, you can see how they've become more and more isolated throughout the years. Maybe some FJers who think Steve is a good guy knew them back then(?). Whereas the "Steve is a jackass" crowd know him more recently?

And I gotta say, that story about allowing some of his kids to ride w/o seatbelts because "God directed" him is downright scarey. And frankly, yes, does sound like something a mental patient would say. How long before God tells him something even more dangerous?

And shame on Teri for not speaking up. And Christopher, who was an adult , for not speaking up.

I wonder if he realizes that, had they had an accident, and the minor children were hurt, or worse, he could have been prosecuted?

So much for a man who goes to such great lengths to "protect" his family.

[emmiedahl]

About scheduling: someone mentioned that elementary school teachers are great at it so what's the big deal, but teachers have the advantage of scheduling one age group and not having to fit cleaning and baby care in there. I really think a lot of homeschooling moms have a lot on their plate and need some sort of scheduling help to get through their day teaching four different age groups/sets of curriculum, cleaning house, caring for young children, managing a long list of social activities, working from home, etc.

I don't have the Maxwells book, and while I will snark away, if I came across it ( esp with the extra materials!) in a thrift store I would totes buy it and give it a try.

[skankbiscuit]

About scheduling: someone mentioned that elementary school teachers are great at it so what's the big deal, but teachers have the advantage of scheduling one age group and not having to fit cleaning and baby care in there. I really think a lot of homeschooling moms have a lot on their plate and need some sort of scheduling help to get through their day teaching four different age groups/sets of curriculum, cleaning house, caring for young children, managing a long list of social activities, working from home, etc.

I don't have the Maxwells book, and while I will snark away, if I came across it ( esp with the extra materials!) in a thrift store I would totes buy it and give it a try.

Ok I am getting my masters in education right now to teach special ed - and I have been a SAHM for the last 8 years. I am not a fundy, I am a liberal Christian on a good day. I must say that organization is so important when you are at home with children. If I am on top of my organization game, it trickles down to the rest of my family...if I am slacking then I have found my family will be "off" as well. I can see where the Maxwell's book could be helpful if mom is running a sinking ship...like the previous poster said some people need help with this.

Yeah, when I am doing student teaching I focus on teaching, I have 3 paraprofessionals doing the cleaning up, walking the kids to and fro, taking them to the bathroom, dealing with their hygiene and changing their diapers if needed. I have to deal with ALL of that when I am home, so yeah it's much different when I am in the classroom.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Yeah. I don't know them either, I'm just some random person on the Internet who became enthralled with their blog because they are SO amazingly alien to my own background. But once I found them, I read everything I could find, including all posts existing on their blog (though apparently they post-edit, so it's not certain I've seen everything that ever was) and various commentary elsewhere (not on any Maxwell-run pages) about either them or their products, not all favorable.

Point being, just reading their blog and particularly the corners, you definitely can see the changes. As I posted elsewhere on the wedding threads, I wonder if the the death-obsession kicked in at some point and much of the hyper-religiosity and legalism actually followed from THAT, and not the other way around. The whole prohibition of fun thing, it's as if someone (well, Papa Maxwell) is taking the idea of "wasting (religious) study time" to an extreme, time is limited and they must use every possible moment in only running full speed toward that finish line, hoping desperately that they've done enough. If you're daydreaming, you're wasting time you could be obsessing about God, unless you can turn that daydreaming into some sort of ministry to spread the word.

I mean, it almost makes me wonder just what the crisis was. A near-death experience? Mental crisis? The usual sort of mid-life crisis, but amped up? Or did he just fall for the Ray Comfort tract with the "where will you go when you die" particularly hard, for some reason? (I know that's the one they're particularly enamored of now.)

They have a post up today showing them packaging materials for sale. I've done similar work stuffing envelopes or making signs for various political campaigns and the like, and it can be quite pleasant. But I can't help but wonder, what sort of small talk were they making while doing the work? Most people, well, interesting stuff happened to them that the others don't know about, while they were away from each other, and so there's stuff to talk about, there's news. But if you're together 24/7 AND not reading or listening to any outside stuff (so no "How about that guy on the radio this morning..." or "Can you believe what Congress is doing..."), what topics of conversation can there be?

As for scheduling I'm a lists and schedule oriented person myself, so can't snark too hard on the concept (though the copyright stuff is just lolwut???). But I make my own schedule, and you better believe that "going out to hang with the neighbors over beer" is a recurring item.

[VodouDoll]

she saw a change in Steve over the years from a genuinly nice guy to a rigid legalist, and that is probably why her friendship with Teri died down. She believes there is a form of mental illness in that family, not just depression, but something that turned Steve into an isolationist.

To me, this is the real and fascinating puzzle of the Maxwells. I could speculate on it all day long. What on earth happened to this guy? What mental illness does he have or what incredible trauma did he go through to make him act this way? And how did he manage to so completely brainwash the rest of them, even his wife, in-laws, and his older kids who knew a different way of life and could've pushed back?

[VodouDoll]

I can't help but wonder, what sort of small talk were they making while doing the work? Most people, well, interesting stuff happened to them that the others don't know about, while they were away from each other, and so there's stuff to talk about, there's news. But if you're together 24/7 AND not reading or listening to any outside stuff (so no "How about that guy on the radio this morning..." or "Can you believe what Congress is doing..."), what topics of conversation can there be?

I've wondered this for years! What on earth could they possibly have to talk about when they don't ever do anything or think anything or read anything that the others aren't already 100% aware of? I imagine that eavesdropping on their family conversations must be a little like listening to Christian talk radio 24/7, but with all of the show hosts agreeing with each other instead of debating issues. You can hardly believe anyone could find that much to say about Christianity, but those radio stations manage to fill 8,700 hours per year talking about it without much trouble.

[Guest Anonymous]

To me, this is the real and fascinating puzzle of the Maxwells. I could speculate on it all day long. What on earth happened to this guy? What mental illness does he have or what incredible trauma did he go through to make him act this way? And how did he manage to so completely brainwash the rest of them, even his wife, in-laws, and his older kids who knew a different way of life and could've pushed back?

Well we know Terri has a history of chronic depression so surely her reasoning for following him stems from that. This Mom's corner is very, very sad: http://www.titus2.com/corners/1-08-m.htm

She says:

When a wife disagrees with her husband, either she is right or he is right. Let's first assume that she is discerning Scripture correctly, and her husband it the one not obeying the Word. Then I believe 1 Peter 3:1 would apply. The verse says she is not to say a word.

Often it is a wife's words that get her into trouble. She sees something she thinks isn't right. She expresses her concern, unhappiness, or dissatisfaction. Nothing changes. She brings it up again, in another way. Nothing changes. Over the course of the years, this becomes a continual pattern for her. She has tried repeatedly with her words to win her husband to her way of thinking. Rather than being successful, she has grown the wedge between them. Perhaps the reason she hasn't been successful has to do with the teaching in these verses.

While I believe strongly in the truth 1 Peter 3:1 teaches for a wife in how to handle a disagreement with her husband, I am not saying it is easy. I have been trying to learn to be obedient to this verse for over thirty years (in the Loving Your Husband session, I share practical examples). There has certainly been improvement in my life, but I have further to go. However, it is my heart's desire to keep praying and asking the Lord for His grace in this area. I also ask Steve's forgiveness when I fail, and I try to choose the path of obedience when a conflict rages in my heart over wanting to say something versus being quiet.

She repeatedly stays silent when she believes Steve to be wrong, and on the rare occasions she challenges him she asks for his forgiveness....

[doggie]

She repeatedly stays silent when she believes Steve to be wrong, and on the rare occasions she challenges him she asks for his forgiveness....

Yes letting a monster run rampant really makes her happy.

[Guest Anonymous]

And Steve's first corner is about his anger problem...: http://www.titus2.com/corners/4-00-d.htm

We have worked hard to teach our children proper table etiquette, but that had become a real source of frustration and anger for me. This may sound stupid to you, but it is true. I had one child in particular that would not chew with his lips together and others that would either eat with their elbows on the table or not sit up nicely. I would remind them and remind them, and eventually I would get angry. You can imagine that did not make for pleasant meals. God is so gracious though. When we desire to please Him and if we cry out for wisdom, He is faithful in answering our prayers.

I asked the Lord to help me train them without getting angry. The idea came that if a child is demonstrating poor manners I will catch their attention and then raise my pointer finger indicating the first mark. If I see another problem, I will raise two fingers indicating two marks. If I see a third occurrence, they are excused from the meal. I have found this very freeing. I have a way of communicating the problem without getting angry and there are consequences that the children will work hard to avoid. Seldom has anyone had to be excused from the table, and I now have children who are striving to demonstrate proper manners. The best part of it is I don't get angry any longer over training the children at the table.

So when they were being 'heart-trained' he managed his anger by signalling to them that they would have to leave the table and await 'consequences'.

Nice dad.

[Guest Anonymous]

OK so I seem to be reading through Steve's corners in chronological order and every one is ringing alarm bells.

In the second part on Anger, he backtracks a bit on what he said in part one and downgrades his anger to 'irritation' which he seems to blame on his childhood experience: http://www.titus2.com/corners/5-00-d.htm

How I hated that tone. I had heard it for most of my childhood years, and now as a parent, I had the same irritated tone. If something displeased me, I would have an edge on my voice that my family knew all too well.

[VodouDoll]

Have you gotten to the one yet where he accidentally looks at a female family friend and then almost bursts into tears because he's so anxious that she might mistakenly think he was sneaking a peek at her boobs? The man was (still is?) an emotional wreck. I can't imagine him writing nowadays about wanting to cry, except in the context of New Years Eve.

[Guest Anonymous]

In this one he confesses to being a selfish shit... http://www.titus2.com/corners/10-00-d.htm

I don't know about you but I struggle greatly with selfishness. It is so easy for me to focus on my needs and myself. As long as my needs are being met, I can be very satisfied with how things are going at home. Something tells me that this true for most dads. We will go on our merry way while our wives struggle under the burden of keeping house, homeschooling, and being wife and mother (all the while feeling unappreciated and maybe defeated). I think that if we had as "full a plate" as our wives we would often feel like quitting. Most men I know leave a job long before it gets that bad.

However, when I lavish my love on Teri, both verbally and by my actions, she is better able to face the challenges each day brings, knowing how much I love her and appreciate all she does.

[Guest Anonymous]

Have you gotten to the one yet where he accidentally looks at a female family friend and then almost bursts into tears because he's so anxious that she might mistakenly think he was sneaking a peek at her boobs? The man was (still is?) an emotional wreck. I can't imagine him writing nowadays about wanting to cry, except in the context of New Years Eve.

I read that one before... I think it is the one where he finished by being angry with her husband for allowing her to dress in a way that defrauded him..... :naughty:

[kpmom]

I can't help but feel a little sorry (just a little) for Steve, though. It must be hell going through life feeling guilty (and wary) constantly.

[VodouDoll]

I read that one before... I think it is the one where he finished by being angry with her husband for allowing her to dress in a way that defrauded him..... :naughty:

Oh! That's right! Good memory, anniec!

Wow, Steve Maxwell has problems.

At least he's aware that he's angry and selfish and wants to do better? Maybe one of his problems is that he has no idea of how to improve himself beyond trying to control every aspect of his environment so that nothing will give him cause to be upset in the first place.

I'm still wondering how all of this got started, though. A reasonable person would have realized long ago (or been told by his family or friends) that he's behaving totally irrationally and brainwashing his children. That never happened with Steve. Or if it did (like from the brother he doesn't talk to anymore, or maybe from the friends he doesn't have anymore because they're fun to be around and a distraction from Jesus) then he was able to ignore them and cut them out of his life. All of them. Why didn't Teri ever say anything? Why didn't her parents? Why didn't Nathan? Steve's Air Force friends? Anyone?

[ladypuglover]

In this one he confesses to being a selfish shit... http://www.titus2.com/corners/10-00-d.htm

I don't know about you but I struggle greatly with selfishness. It is so easy for me to focus on my needs and myself. As long as my needs are being met, I can be very satisfied with how things are going at home. Something tells me that this true for most dads. We will go on our merry way while our wives struggle under the burden of keeping house, homeschooling, and being wife and mother (all the while feeling unappreciated and maybe defeated). I think that if we had as "full a plate" as our wives we would often feel like quitting. Most men I know leave a job long before it gets that bad.

However, when I lavish my love on Teri, both verbally and by my actions, she is better able to face the challenges each day brings, knowing how much I love her and appreciate all she does.

I bet most people enjoy hearing loving words from their partners but most people would also like a helping hand in the chores. So Steve tell your wife you love her and then show her how much you mean it by helping her with her work load.

[doggie]

I bet most people enjoy hearing loving words from their partners but most people would also like a helping hand in the chores. So Steve tell your wife you love her and then show her how much you mean it by helping her with her work load.

his idea of love is total control. Wonder if he will end up going postal?

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Steve seems to have skipped this verse:

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?"

Matthew 6:25-27 New International Version

[FireIsCatching89]

And Steve's first corner is about his anger problem...: http://www.titus2.com/corners/4-00-d.htm

We have worked hard to teach our children proper table etiquette, but that had become a real source of frustration and anger for me. This may sound stupid to you, but it is true. I had one child in particular that would not chew with his lips together and others that would either eat with their elbows on the table or not sit up nicely. I would remind them and remind them, and eventually I would get angry. You can imagine that did not make for pleasant meals. God is so gracious though. When we desire to please Him and if we cry out for wisdom, He is faithful in answering our prayers.

I asked the Lord to help me train them without getting angry. The idea came that if a child is demonstrating poor manners I will catch their attention and then raise my pointer finger indicating the first mark. If I see another problem, I will raise two fingers indicating two marks. If I see a third occurrence, they are excused from the meal. I have found this very freeing. I have a way of communicating the problem without getting angry and there are consequences that the children will work hard to avoid. Seldom has anyone had to be excused from the table, and I now have children who are striving to demonstrate proper manners. The best part of it is I don't get angry any longer over training the children at the table.

So when they were being 'heart-trained' he managed his anger by signalling to them that they would have to leave the table and await 'consequences'.

Nice dad.

I sort of understand this frustration, since I am a camp counselor and am required to eat lunch with my six and seven year old campers every day. They aren't the politest, and they do need a lot of reminders about table manners. HOWEVER, I just remind them to use their napkins or sit up with a "please" because they're not really causing trouble, are still learning, and it's not worth getting pissy over a minor annoyance and disciplining them. Steves's a control freak, though, so a minor annoyance is cause for a major meltdown. Frankly, my parents were just happy if my brother and I managed to get through the meal without major spills. Also, Steve's open-mouth-chewing child may simply lack a bit of coordination. Lord knows, I didn't really get the whole "chew with your mouth closed" thing until I was about six-ish.

I kinda wonder if he's like ZsuZsu in that his children aren't allowed to dislike any foods and must clean their plates. Using food as punishment or rewards or making strict rules (i.e. always clean your plate, even if you overeat) is a great way to give kids food issues. Children naturally know when to start and stop with food, and if presented with a variety of healthy choices at each meal and then given control over what is or isn't eaten, generally will eat a fairly balanced diet over the course of a week, even if they may spend a day or two only eating bread or yogurt or whatever.