Mark Driscoll

[Fundilicious]

Can we discuss him here? Is he even fundie?

My sister just introduced me to him. She is like in love with him and could only spew good things about this man. My husband and I have been listening to his new sermon series on Real Marriage. :o <-----------ya that is how I feel about it. If he's not fundie, he sure spews fundie like ideology. Wife should stay home, wife should only please the husband. Heck, he scolded his wife for cutting her hair short when she was pregnant. Instead of thinking of HIS needs, she was selfish and only thinking of her own. Because how dare she not want to deal with fixing her long hair while dealing with a newborn.

So if he is a safe topic to discuss, what do you all know about him? I would love to learn more so I could warn my sister to stay away. She is pretty level headed, so not sure what drew her to this guy to begin with.

[Witsec7]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2750&hilit=Mark+Driscol

[Guest Anonymous]

He's utterly disgusting. If you use the search function you can pull up pages and pages on him. In a nutshell - he's incredibly sexist. He claims to have visions/prophetic dreams which always have to do with sex or molestation. He wants to completely control his congregants, and he worships Fight Club Jesus.

[Fundilicious]

@ experiencedd....Excellent! and ewwwww.

[debrand]

Does your sister know that he thinks that he can get images of what sin others have done? Give me a moment and I will find a link for you.

[debrand]

teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/08/pornographic-divination.html

I found a blog discussing Mark's divination abilities.

Here's a sample of the kind of thing I was referring to: The video below features Mark Driscoll, claiming the Holy Spirit regularly gives him graphic visions showing acts of rape, fornicators in flagrante delicto, and sexual child molesters in the very act

According to Mark, he approachers a person, gets a vision and then confronts them with thier 'sin'

[hoipolloi]

The Wartburg Watch -- a blog maintained by two evangelical Christians -- has written a lot on Mark Driscoll (thewartburgwatch.com/category/mark-driscoll/) and his cult (thewartburgwatch.com/category/mars-hill-church/).

If you need more info, that's a good place to start. Also, because the bloggers are believers, there may be a chance that your sister would more accepting of the serious criticisms they raise.

[Fundilicious]

@debrand- I'm actually not sure what my sister actually knows about him. If I had to guess she is more drawn in by his personality (though I think his personality screams misogynist). I'm hoping after this thread dies down to compile all I learn and share them with her. From what I have learned he is a bit of a creeper.

I guess in her defense she's only ever listened to his podcasts. We don't live near any of his churches. I'm not sure if she googled and found his podcasts on her own or if someone suggested them to her. Either way she liked him enough to suggest him to me...

[Fundilicious]

I wanted to add...exactly what would you all brand Mark Driscoll as? Just an out there, crazy cult leader Christian? Fundie? He does let his wife wear pants.

There is a church in my hometown that reminds me a lot of Marks. It is very cult like and money hungry. They even have a "university" where you pay them to teach you how to have divine healing powers. In video clips they have church members discussing how they have touched a person and god has healed things as significant as cancer through their touch. It's a bit crazy, but the video on Driscoll saying he can touch a person and see their sin reminded me of this. I wouldn't call that particular church fundies or even fundie light. Most people just call them crazy.

[starfish]

he's obsessed with sex. He also blames any type of infidelity on the wife "letting herself go".

[Kaylee]

Driscoll isn't recognizably fundie because he doesn't push the same legalistic standards on dress and things, but he definitely has a fundamentalist worldview. In a way, I have much less problem with fundies like Jack Schaap, Doug Phillips, than with Driscoll, because they don't try to hide what they are. Driscoll tries to dress things up in a package to appeal to the greatest amount of people, but his teachings and the way his church operates share a lot with some of the worst parts of fundamentalism. They present one face to the general public then smack people own with rules and expectations once they're in and expect them to just submit to it because of their membership contract.

In addition to the websites already mentioned, these 2 are good resources on Mars Hall & Driscoll:

Mars Hill Refuge - http://marshillrefuge.blogspot.com/

A Collection of Links about Driscoll & Mars Hill - http://skjaere.livejournal.com/706665.html

[Shirley MacLaine]

Driscoll isn't recognizably fundie because he doesn't push the same legalistic standards on dress and things, but he definitely has a fundamentalist worldview. In a way, I have much less problem with fundies like Jack Schaap, Doug Phillips, than with Driscoll, because they don't try to hide what they are. Driscoll tries to dress things up in a package to appeal to the greatest amount of people, but his teachings and the way his church operates share a lot with some of the worst parts of fundamentalism.

Agreed, agreed, agreed. Sure, you can wear pants and watch whatever movies you want, but his theology is as regressive and disgusting as anyone we discuss here.

I read one of his booklets that is available for free download from theresurgence.com, witness:

Because I am speaking to fellow men, my tone may not be well suited for some women and, therefore, I would request that they not read this booklet, unless they are a wife whose husband has read it first and he can discuss its contents with her in love.

[Witsec6]

Driscoll isn't recognizably fundie because he doesn't push the same legalistic standards on dress and things, but he definitely has a fundamentalist worldview. In a way, I have much less problem with fundies like Jack Schaap, Doug Phillips, than with Driscoll, because they don't try to hide what they are. Driscoll tries to dress things up in a package to appeal to the greatest amount of people, but his teachings and the way his church operates share a lot with some of the worst parts of fundamentalism. They present one face to the general public then smack people own with rules and expectations once they're in and expect them to just submit to it because of their membership contract.

In addition to the websites already mentioned, these 2 are good resources on Mars Hall & Driscoll:

Mars Hill Refuge - http://marshillrefuge.blogspot.com/

A Collection of Links about Driscoll & Mars Hill - http://skjaere.livejournal.com/706665.html

I agree.

Whenever I talk about Mark Driscoll, I describe him as a dangerous jerk.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Relevant!

http://joyfulexiles.com/

Personal story of a couple who have left Mars Hill Church.

ETA: Got that a bit wrong. Story of Joanna and Paul Petry. Paul Petry was a pastor at Mars Hill and was fired in... 2007? I think.

[Austin]

I read a lot of the SGM documents some months ago and I am struck by how much the Mars Hill documents are similar to the SGM documents regarding CJ Mahaney's fall trip from grace.

I think any time your pastor tells you not to discuss something to do with church polity, that should throw up a huge red flag. I was an evangelical for the first 40+plus years of my life and if any pastor had tried to tell me or my husband what we could or couldn't talk about, I can't imagine we'd just say, "Okay" :shock: . Even when sipping the kool-aid, we would have been like, "Hey, we're adults and we'll discuss whatever we think we should". And then we would have started making for the door.

It seems that people who fail to maintain their intellectual independence, no matter how smart they may be, get into huge sorts of issues with these sorts of churches and while I sympathize with them to a degree, I feel like they have to be accountable for abdicating their own responsibility to themselves and their families, not to mention those who they, in turn, victimize. The Petrys were part and parcel of the dubious workings of Driscoll's church, but when he turned on them and bit them in the butt, then they didn't like it so much. Jonna Petry ends up admitting as much, but it seems like they weren't too concerned about the lives they were devastating while they were complicit in it.

[Witsec1]

Austin, I'd be interested in the Reader's Digest version of the SGM story, if you feel like starting a new thread. Isn't Kendull in an SGM church?

[Black Aliss]

Also viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8127&hilit=mark+driscoll

[tabbytiger]

I agree completely - Driscoll and mars hill are more dangerous than traditional fundies because they portray this cool, laid back image that sucks people in. One of my friends from university was a very ambitious over achiever - we are talking top of the class at one of the most elite schools in the country. She had high career aspirations. Since moving to Seattle, she has done an about face. Never worked a day, had some kids right away and plans for many more, plans to homeschool, blog that rhapsodizes about what a strong spiritual leader her husband is, etc. it's like she's a completely different person. I think it's almost completely because of mars hill. They knew no one when they moved to town and immediately got sucked in with tons of social activities. Mars hill people are basically the only people they associate with. And yet they're all organic, wine loving, indie rock listeners. You don't realize what they really are, so they suck you in.

This couple was highly educated and intelligent. Mars hill is a freakin cult and it scares the shit out of me.

[Austin]

Austin, I'd be interested in the Reader's Digest version of the SGM story, if you feel like starting a new thread. Isn't Kendull in an SGM church?

I started following this last summer, as I've been a lurker on both the SGM Refuge and SGM Survivor blogs for a long time.

The situations are similar. In SGM's case, an insider, Brent Detweiler (pastor at SGM) got himself on the wrong side of CJ Mahaney and found himself put out of the circle. He then, at a later point, released, wikileaks-style, documents that basically brought to light years of the manipulative, coercive, heavy-handed, spiritually-abusive leadership of CJ Mahaney et al. There was evidence of Mahaney perpetrating blackmail and all sorts of bad behavior. In the case of SGM, Mahaney stepped down last summer for a period of "self examination". Actually, just like Driscoll, he would have denied all of it if Detweiler didn't have the goods on him. Manahey has since been reinstated.

The documents, documents are interestesting (if lengthy) reading.

The Wartburg Watch, along with SGM Refuge and SGM Survivors all chronicle the tale quite well with lots of insight from former members in the latter two.

The Reformed Big Dogs™, who include John Piper, Al Mohler, CJ Mahaney, Mark Driscoll and others seem to all share serious power issues, and probably are all narcissists. They believe they are above church law and Christian ethics, and even when they are caught pretty much red-handed, as in Mahaney's case, they've so charmed their supporters for so many years that they are able to, by the sheer force of their supporters' numbers, sweep it all under the rug.

Josh Harris is a CJ Mahaney protege, btw.

There seem to be some very common characteristics between SGM and Mars Hill. The pastors rule wield a great deal of power in these authoritarian structures because they do not allow dissent. Dissent is "divisive" and "back-biting". Dissent is gossip. In fact, pretty much any even slightly critical discussion of the church, its pastor, or its polity is gossip. Gossip is sold as a very serious sin in these communities, so essentially, they are able to create a situation where the people in the community literally do not speak to each other about anything bad going on, even if it's happening right in front of their eyes. SGM pretty much succeeded in sweeping child rape under the rug. It really is a horrifying incident.

When I read the Petry situation, I was struck by the commonality between the two churches. Both Detweiler and Petry were very happy to be part of Mahaney's and Driscoll's (respectively) inner circles until they were turned upon. While I do applaud them for speaking out, as all of the secrecy is a huge part of the problems with these churches, I am rubbed the wrong way because these men knew what these pastors were doing for years before the fit hit the shan, and they were completely complicit in a lot of it. They both leave their own wakes of damaged lives.

People's lives are destroyed by these so-called churches. When first involved, everyone reaches out to them and is so kind and loving. They are brought along, love-bombed all the way, and are encouraged to get more and more involved until their former friends, and even their extended families sometimes, are distant memories. When it all falls apart, they have nobody and they are actively shunned. It's horrible.

[Justvisiting]

I just read the joyful exiles post.

I'm glad all this stuff is coming out about Mars Hill.

I agree that it's even scarier because it's a cult packaged in "normal" clothes. It's all the same authoritarian garbage but coated with hipster style and sex-talk. And his newest book on marriage is stomach-turning.

[Justvisiting]

Never worked a day, had some kids right away and plans for many more, plans to homeschool, blog that rhapsodizes about what a strong spiritual leader her husband is, etc. it's like she's a completely different person. I think it's almost completely because of mars hill. They knew no one when they moved to town and immediately got sucked in with tons of social activities. Mars hill people are basically the only people they associate with. And yet they're all organic, wine loving, indie rock listeners. You don't realize what they really are, so they suck you in.

This couple was highly educated and intelligent. Mars hill is a freakin cult and it scares the shit out of me.

YES! It's the same fundamentalist stuff in better packaging. I live in Seattle and it's a little Stepford wives to encounter MH women. Very sad all the damage that has been done.

Edited to add link to The View interviewing MD on his newest book. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JDPjDlD9O4

[gustava]

Another article on Driscoll:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/fait ... case_.html