The heartlessness... you might cry - Lewis

[Annette]

I gathered from the Factnet thread that he was 38 and she was 23, 15 year difference.

[onlyorganic]

Off topic but I never would have guessed he's 38... I thought he was the same age as her from appearance, he's quite nice-looking actually :)

[MamaJunebug]

O. M. G. This endless ranting without an audience is disturbing.

I don't normally make an effort to stick up personally for somebody, but i make an exception for Lewis.

For one thing, he's explained that there indeed was an audience to what, indeed, looks like "endless ranting."

IIRC, The ex-fiance's male relations were responding to him somehow and for whateverreason (I really don't recallthose particulars), L chose just to publish his replies.

At first, I too thought he was carrying this on way too long, and then I read where he has begun to use his own frustrating, heartbreaking experience as a platform to denounce patriarchal abuse generally.

So, FWIW, my take on his webpresence. I think he's doing a world of good and Ihope he is blessed with real love again, before long.

[Freyacat]

In fairness to him, I read his story on his blog and while there were clues, he didn't make it super obvious. Google made it obvious, but I don't think it's necessarily anything he could have controlled.

[dcmhejbl62]

The links on this page provide another perspective. I haven't even gotten half through them yet.

[failsafe]

Just typed out a looooooong response and my computer ate it. Boo.

In any case, as Lewis reads here I'll address my response on this topic to him:

Lewis, it's so clear from your story how very, very hurt you were from all this, and it is heartbreaking. What you experienced/are experiencing sounds almost like grief, grief for the possibilities lost, what her life could have been, what yours could have been with hers in it. I don't judge how you choose to work through that - in a blog, in therapy, whatever. That working through this experience serves to highlight a movement many here consider dangerous - well, all the better. Patriarchy hurts women, but it hurts men too and your side of the story provides an important counterpoint to the idea that courtship is sunshine and rainbows that many might believe if confronted only with VF shiny smiling faces and Robotkin books. What is clear to me, through your whole story, is how unbelievably sad and angry you are, and I don't fault you for shedding light on the situation which seems to have struck you, at its core, as so fundamentally unfair.

At the same time, I cannot pretend there aren't elements of your story I don't take issue with. Several of your comments are worrying to me - your elation at getting her away from the negative influences of her family and friends, indeed, your own comments to her often come off as forceful and slightly controlling. Out of context, those read like emotional manipulation on your part. In context, I haven't quite figured out what they are. The way you discuss talking to her, it does seem like you are proscribing to her what she should be doing, actions she ought to take - we will call your parents together, you will tell your father this, etc etc. She seems to have been submitting to you, but that may not have been your fault - after all, she had been brought up to submit, I imagine it is very hard to go from that to knowing and acting on your own mind. On the flip side, your own pushes to her to do just that, make her own decisions, sometimes came off as too much for me. You seem like a forceful person who knows your own mind and takes decisive action. She seems like the opposite and as someone who is similar to that personality type, I think if I were in your ex's situation, I would feel compelled down the road to self-actualization by you, rather than reaching it on my own. I speak from experience when I say one can't force that journey, but it seems to me you were trying, and some of your actions toward her came off as controlling - forcing someone to grow up is, IMO, not much better than forcing them to stay a child. Then again, I only know this story as words on a computer screen. You lived it and it could have been entirely different, so I accept that I may have entirely misinterpreted the situation.

I also take issue with the reference through your blog to "Christian Islam" and the xenophobic comments you make conflating your ex's father with a Muslim. I'm sure you must realize that it would be as deeply offensive for an adherent of Islam to hear what your ex's father did as an equivalent of their religion as it is to you to hear his actions conflated with Christianity. What I am sure you intend to say is that "Christian fundamentalism is not dissimilar to Islamic fundamentalism because hell, patriarchy is patriarchy." However, that's not what "Christian Islam" and "We're in America, not some Islamic third world nation" (FYI, some of the most "Islamic" nations which adhere to the Qu'ran literally are not 3rd-world) imply. What you fail to recognize is your own astounding privilege in this situation. I've read your post explaining the term Christian Islam, and I was concerned that your arguments reflect only a rudimentary understanding of a millenium-old religion. I recognize that you're a Christian and you believe you have found the "right" path. That does not give you the right to denigrate others who have chosen a different one. You are contributing to the unbelievable amount of othering and Orientalism your group (Western Christians) propagates upon 1.5 billion people around the world, many of whom practice Islam differently, interpret the Qu'ran differently, many of whom are not brown, many of whom do not live in the Middle East, and many of whom would be offended to be called patriarchs.

I use my concern about your discussion of Christian Islam to illustrate a larger point - I think you are failing to acknowledge your own privilege as an adult white Christian male. I think it is important in the story of your courtship, as has been pointed out above, that you recognize that privilege and how it played into your experience and how it shapes the very lens through which you view the courtship. I believe you have gone through something very, very hard, something I don't know if I could have gone through - but I can't deny there are parts of your story that rub me the wrong way. I don't mean to be too critical of you, because I believe you're a good person and I believe at the core, you're doing a good thing here. But, like anything else in this world, there are places that I disagree with what you've done or how you've done it.

[Oddeverything]

factnet.org/vbforum/showthread.php?s=1a5917962d6136b9aa4b6efb8f394042&t=13329

Had you not posted the link to a forum subcategory within another subcategory, I would have never known the family name of the woman involved in Lewis' story. I have read Lewis' site for a while and respected his desire that people not know her name and did not investigate. I suspect a lot of his readers either had the same reaction or didn't have the necessary information to find out. Until you posted that link I didn't even know what Lewis' last name is so it would have been hard to track down the necessary information. His posts on his blog are under the name "Lewis" and the only name I have seen him post under here is "Lewis." Because of your link I now know his last name and had I the inclination, I could find out anything I wanted about the woman in question. If you think he is disturbed, making it that much easier to find out the name of the woman involved is doing no one any favors.

Moreover, a "rant" he made two years ago shortly after what would have been his first anniversary had he married is hardly a sign he is disturbed. He was speaking to a person who was sending him e-mails, responding openly in that forum to the e-mails his initial entry provoked. Had the family responded to him in the forum rather than e-mail it would hardly look like one lone man raging in the e-wilderness. In later pages, he states the family was sending him responses within minutes of reading his "rants." It was an argument we could see only one side of, and therefore isn't really a rant.

And more to the points being made by others, Lewis has every right to discuss what happened to him and he has every right to discuss it until the day he dies. He does not have to cloak it in a need to inform in order to give it sanctity, but it does inform many of the dangers of courtship and patriarchy. There are two sides to every story and his ex has every right to tell her side as well but even if we never know her point of view, he has every right to speak of this whenever and however he wants.

[Lewis]

I've discussed the other forum here before. It was a relatively private forum visited only by the people associated with the cult started by my ex's great-grandfather.

@Annette - "O. M. G. This endless ranting without an audience is disturbing."...There was an audience, and lots going on there that people who only read it from curiosity or sport wouldn't be aware of. The situation with my ex wasn't the only thing in play, although it was the vehicle used.

@Rosa - "The thing that tips it into "he's beefing with her dad when really he has no idea whether she loved him back or not" is the age difference - didn't we figure out on the yuku board that he's like 10 years older than she is?"...15 years, and if I weren't certain that she had loved me, this wouldn't have been so personally hard on me.

@onlyorganic - "Off topic but I never would have guessed he's 38... I thought he was the same age as her from appearance, he's quite nice-looking actually"...Thank you very kindly, but I actually turned 42 yesterday ;) I was 38 when all of this went down.

[Lewis]

@failsafe - "At the same time, I cannot pretend there aren't elements of your story I don't take issue with."...Perfectly understandable. I don't claim to have done everything "right". Like I've said on my blog, I'd never heard of this patriarchy BS before, and from my perspective, this was a group of adults wringing their hands over what were often very simple matters of right and wrong, whether for Christians or non-Christians. I hope, though, that my writing is conveying my desire to get her up off the sidelines of her own life and not be willing to sit back while me and her asshole of a father negotiated over her like she was property - which is what it seemed she wanted us to do.

"I also take issue with the reference through your blog to "Christian Islam" and the xenophobic comments you make conflating your ex's father with a Muslim. I'm sure you must realize that it would be as deeply offensive for an adherent of Islam to hear what your ex's father did as an equivalent of their religion as it is to you to hear his actions conflated with Christianity. What I am sure you intend to say is that "Christian fundamentalism is not dissimilar to Islamic fundamentalism because hell, patriarchy is patriarchy.""...To my knowledge, that's the interpretation most have taken from what I've written - the similarities between radical, rigid application of biblical law and radical, rigid application of Sharia law. Both suck for women.

"What is clear to me, through your whole story, is how unbelievably sad and angry you are, and I don't fault you for shedding light on the situation which seems to have struck you, at its core, as so fundamentally unfair."...About what happened with my ex and her family, yes, it's very sad and still makes me very angry. That sadness and anger doesn't define every second of my life, though. I have more sadness and anger these days for the stories people write to me, and I'm trying, even if unsuccessfully, to use my own experience to help those people. You'd be amazed, literally, at how often someone right in the middle of something like I went through writes to me asking me what they should expect to see next - and I can tell them...accurately. These patriarchal deals ALL go down the same way.

[Lewis]

If someone has questions about either CoM or my experience, I'll answer if I can.

To my knowledge, my ex's family knows nothing about my blog (I haven't really promoted it to them or anyone else). If they DID know about it, it wouldn't change anything there, other than maybe my stat counters going nuts. I don't name them there for practical reasons - it would serve no purpose. They've made their choices, and if they could be shamed into doing right by people, they'd have done so long ago, and done it by more people than me. It isn't a matter of the "goodness of my heart". These people have done some nasty things to me, including physically threatening me. Personally, part of me would like to beat the hell out of them, so it isn't a "goodness of my heart" thing.

Yes, I've professed the Christian faith for most of my life (even though probably closer to what most of you call a "fundie -lite", if even that - I've always been relatively open-minded), and I've been directly or indirectly involved in Christian music for most of my adult life (even though I've played on as many secular records as Christian records). On my blog I've been very open about my faith, my own struggles with it, and the changes I've seen in myself in the last three years as a result of all of this stuff. It's helped me sift through things, discover dead-weight and religious addictions of my own, and deal with those things. Trust me when I tell you that this causes no small amount of consternation in my own world - so I deal with a lot of crap from both worlds. I've been very open about the emotional/personal side of my experience as well. I haven't cloaked myself in any way, and I use my full name.

I've no control over someone's desire to google me, nor over what they want to make of me.

[failsafe]

Lewis,

Thanks for responding. You're right, you've never claimed to have done everything right (nor am I, at all, the authority on whether you have - just because I may have chosen different actions in some of your situations doesn't mean mine would have been right and yours were wrong, of course). Like I said, I think you are shedding light on a dangerous movement and the far reaching consequences it can have, even to those only tangentially connected, which I think is important (and I believe is why you're doing it in the first place).

To my knowledge, that's the interpretation most have taken from what I've written - the similarities between radical, rigid application of biblical law and radical, rigid application of Sharia law. Both suck for women.

I understand that's what you intended. But it's not what you said. Tell me, if an external observer commented on a man marrying a 12 year old in Saudi, his third bride that he planned to get pregnant right away, and called that "Islamic Christianity," would you not, as a Christian find that offensive? That's not Christianity, at least the Christianity I believe, after all, though I imagine you could find support in Judeo-Christian texts for that particular way of life (indeed, much of Islam includes a close reading of Judeo-Christian texts). If the comparison was made to, for example, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints fundamentalist movement in the western US, no, it wouldn't be as offensive, but if someone just broadly conflated the terrible actions with that man with Christianity as a whole, yeah, I'd tell them no, you're wrong, you've got what Christianity is about all backwards.

That's why I have an issue with the term "Christian Islam" implies when you use it to discuss the patriarchy. It contributes to the othering of Muslims in the West as generally a backwards people who oppress women and prohibit progress in the world. You can say "Well, this is what I intended, and I think it's all people take from the word" but the very subtle choices like this that we made, broad generalizations we'd never consider making about Us, but it's fine to paint Them with, that contribute to our overall xenophobia.

[DamnPrecious]

Had you not posted the link to a forum subcategory within another subcategory, I would have never known the family name of the woman involved in Lewis' story. I have read Lewis' site for a while and respected his desire that people not know her name and did not investigate. I suspect a lot of his readers either had the same reaction or didn't have the necessary information to find out. Until you posted that link I didn't even know what Lewis' last name is so it would have been hard to track down the necessary information. His posts on his blog are under the name "Lewis" and the only name I have seen him post under here is "Lewis." Because of your link I now know his last name and had I the inclination, I could find out anything I wanted about the woman in question. If you think he is disturbed, making it that much easier to find out the name of the woman involved is doing no one any favors.

Moreover, a "rant" he made two years ago shortly after what would have been his first anniversary had he married is hardly a sign he is disturbed. He was speaking to a person who was sending him e-mails, responding openly in that forum to the e-mails his initial entry provoked. Had the family responded to him in the forum rather than e-mail it would hardly look like one lone man raging in the e-wilderness. In later pages, he states the family was sending him responses within minutes of reading his "rants." It was an argument we could see only one side of, and therefore isn't really a rant.

And more to the points being made by others, Lewis has every right to discuss what happened to him and he has every right to discuss it until the day he dies. He does not have to cloak it in a need to inform in order to give it sanctity, but it does inform many of the dangers of courtship and patriarchy. There are two sides to every story and his ex has every right to tell her side as well but even if we never know her point of view, he has every right to speak of this whenever and however he wants.

You know I how I found his last name? On his CoM Blog, it said it plain as day. It only took me 2 google searches.

[Lewis]

I see your point, failsafe. Truth is, I don't give Christianity a free pass on my blog. I'm not a big fan of it.

[apple1]

I pretty much agree with what Mama Junebug said.

My comment to Lewis: I truly hope that you are able to move forward, and not dwell too long on the past (of course, with the understanding that past experiences shape who we are now). And while I agree that you have the right to post and publicize, I am not sure that you will want to allow this to define you for a long time in the future. There ARE times that the internet's forever existence capabilities do not serve us well.

[Lewis]

damnprecious...When and if, out of nothing more than nosiness or a sporting desire, I decide to do a google search on you, I'll take your conclusions about me as being "disturbed" with a bit more of a straight face.

When people have asked in the past, I've always been VERY clear that my ex's family wasn't anyone they'd know. I've had no intention of making them sporting fodder, and I'm not morally responsible for google searches into something that, until a few months ago, was buried page upon page upon page deep in google.

[debrand]

I think that Lewis' blog serves an important function. Courtship has become a fad among quite a few Christians. My daughter was a guest at a friend's AWANA meeting. The leader asked the girls how old they thought someone should be when they dated. Not knowing anything about the group's idealogy, my daughter rose her hand and said, "My parents say 16," That is our rule for both our sons and daughters. The teacher told my daughter that she was wrong and should practice courtship. What? Forget teaching kids to honor their parents. Courtship trumps the ten commandments.

Courtship is being presented to Christians as the perfect way to protect your children from hurt and ensure that they have a long lasting marriage. THe problem is that A. Parents should not be protecting adult children from life. Being hurt and making mistakes is a part of life. B. Many of these parents sound as if they don't understand boundaries. Adults, no matter their relationship to each other, deserve privacy and the right to make their own decisions. Some of the fathers in the courtship stories sound down right creepy. C. courtship turns adults into children still under their parents control. Sorry. If a young woman or man isn't mature enough to decide who to marry then they aren't old enough to marry.

More Christians should be aware that courtship is far from perfect and might hurt their children emotionally.

Lastly, I don't know of any other way to convince parents that courtship is a flawed device. Yes, some people might have successful courtships, but many people don't. Reading through the comments on his blog is eye opening.

[Rosa]

Lewis - I do believe you are/were convinced she loved you. I just, from personal experience with less drastic situations and from reading a lot of ex-patrio daughters stories, wonder if it is even possible for you to really know. There's no transparency on the other side at all.

And I'm with Debrand on the good work you're doing with the blog; I just think the only part of your story you can really be clear about is how you felt, you can't know what was going on with your ex in private/in her heart, from the role of the suitor, which is a pretty oppressive role in the whole courtship drama.

[fundiefan]

You know I how I found his last name? On his CoM Blog, it said it plain as day. It only took me 2 google searches.

True. His full name is on his blog. If you Google his name, the facnet forum thread is one of the first things that comes up. No, no one can control who will Google or why. But, often, if you are writing a blog or telling a particular story in other ways online, people will Google your name to see if there is anything about you that either offers credibility or refutes you. I do. Maybe I am a cynic but if I'm going to take the time to form an opinion on what someone is saying I'm going to find out what I can about that person in the first place.

Lewis took reasonable measures on his blog not to name anyone. What more could he do? A few years ago he discussed the situation elsewhere and more information was used in those discussions. We all know nothing on the Internet ever really goes away. That doesn't mean he is doing wrong now. He is telling his story, from his perspective, and whatever that story is it is helpful to others. It highlights the really fucked up world that is patriarchy and extreme religious/biblical beliefs that hurt people.

Lewis, I hope this serves to help you heal and recover and do some good for others and all else you need and want to accomplish. Everyone deserves to cope in the way that works for them and if helping others is part of that process, more power to you.

[Brainsample]

I was probably one of the first people to encourage Lewis to blog because of his unique perspective, having nothing to do with the folk religion of patriarchy and just happening to figure out just what had sent his life reeling from the experience of getting dumped by the daddy of his bride intended. He had much to offer and communicated well. So he might be the evil spawn of Hillary McFarland and me! You can blame the two of us!

I think that what's cool about Lewis is the fact that you can trace the progress that he's made in his own healing over the course of a couple of years. He really did love this girl so deeply and didn't understand the mindset of the family. Then the wedding is stopped by the father, pretty much in the eleventh hour, and that's not good enough. FIL has to chase him down and retaliate (for loving his daughter), just out of spite. It was like a triple whammy.

If you think of it as a timeline of personal healing, he's come a long way from that fact net post which I once scanned very briefly when it was discussed on the pre-rapture FJ at Yuku. As he works through his pain and wraps his mind around the patriarchy stuff, though he lost his love and wishes nothing but happiness and freedom for her, he is still on a journey. I read a recent post over there and my husband and I laughed as I read some of Lewis' quips to him, because they sounded so much like the things we said privately to one another (and things that I once said on line quite often). I'm now in a place where I'm laughing, but I was once right there where Lewis is, in full blown polemic mode.

So I look at his writings in terms of the healing that has taken place in his life over time. I'm proud to be one of the first to encourage him to write, and he has added much to the discussion with brutal honesty, particularly concerning some of the personal details.

Lewis has been one of the bright moments for me in the whole process of protesting these aberrant religious movements, and I couldn't be more proud of him. And if he keeps on keeping on, I look forward to another year or two from now when he will demonstrate even more personal growth as evidenced in his writings. And maybe we'll read a bit more blogging about a new love in his life and about the success of his dating adventure with a new love. (That's what I'm hoping for anyway.)

[onlyorganic]

sigh...edited because I'm letting my personal biases get in the way...

[MerryHappy]

Lewis,

Im proud of you.

I was a kid raised in Gothardism. I nearly killed myself several times over it...feeling it was the only form of control I had left in my life.

Thank you for blogging what you do.

The patriarchal crowd won't listen to us...those who's lives they have destroyed. They label us 'bitter fruit' and throw us away as if our lives have no value. As if the families fractured by these controlling teachings are merely human flotsam.

They are listening to you, though, even if it is to throw temper tantrums on your blog.

Keep on, my friend. You are doing a good thing and if I had one wish concerning your blog, it would only be that I wished it were around when I made the exit from my hellish, fundie home life.

[LynnKaboom]

I go back and forth about this guy and his blog. On the one hand, he is someone who was deeply hurt by patriarchy, it seems like his grief and pain are quite sincere. Also, it's great that he has a blog that discusses these issues and gives a platform for others to tell their stories. I believe several FJers have guest posted there about their experiences with the patriarchy.

However, I wish he would stop and examine his own privilege a little, because the detailed rehashing of his broken engagement strikes me as a power play cloaked as a morality tale. Lewis himself was brought up as a conservative Christian and makes a living (I think still) as a "Christian" musician. He is also male, so he pretty much wins in that little world by default. I have never read anything that he has written which acknowledges the position of greater power and privilege he held over his ex simply by being an older male in that culture. The girl is married to someone else and has been out of his life for several years. Obviously she was terribly hurt by what happened, and is still trapped in that life. She lost, and badly, so why not let her keep a little privacy?

Oh please. So someone who's been hurt is supposed to just sit down, shut the fuck up and deal with it because the other person who had been hurt was considered to be part of a "less priveliged" group? If someone stabs you in the back it's going to hurt whether you're male or female, and he has every right to be angry. I've read the story he's posted so far- he seems to be nothing but respectful of his ex and instead focusing his vitriol on her lunatic family.

It's stupid to try to make emotional pain into a hierarchy of privilege, and it really grates on me that people try to do so. I have survived some very traumatic experiences, but I've had people tell me that because the people who harmed me were female it wasn't as bad as it would have been if the people who harmed me were male. Oh really? I think it would have been just as painful either way.

I'm not trying to go off at you specifically, I've just seen this attitude a lot recently and it makes me feel rather ill, to be perfectly honest. Trying to categorize trauma in such a way is offensive and pointless.

[DamnPrecious]

What my major beef is what would a 38 year old with someone so young. Yeah she was chronologically 23, but with the women we have seen that usually makes them emotionally mature as 15 year old. An easily manipulated young women without a thought in her head that a man didn't tell her to think. People are up in arms about concern for Meredith that someone from the outside only wants to marry her for nefarious reasons. How is this any different?

My sympathy goes to her. The whole story reads as two dogs fighting over a bone.

Flame away.

ETA: btw, if you can find anything on through google searches let me know. I can't find anything.

[erunerune]

Though I was no sheltered fundie girl by any stretch of the imagination, mr. erunerune just happens to be 15 years older than me (I'm 35 now, I was 24 when we married so do the math).

Generally speaking, there are WAY more issues that far surpass "X years age difference" when it comes to starting/sustaining a life-time, committed relationship, and those are the issues that stand out most starkly to me when I have read Lewis' story. I totally agree (based only on my observations as an utter outsider) that young women who come of age in fundie households are not given the opportunity to explore their emotions/independence/autonomy, and this is an obvious disservice to them as they enter adulthood and lack the inner compass/emotional tools to navigate human relationships in a healthy, challenging, or personally satisfying manner. /sweeping generalization

There's just not necessarily anything inherently wrong with a 23 yo and a 38 yo getting together, ppl! :dance:

Editing to add that mr. erunerune is not a perv, either. Not at 37, not at 40, and not at 50. Uh, at least not in any way that should matter to anyone on this board. Heh. :naughty:

[Oddeverything]

What my major beef is what would a 38 year old with someone so young. Yeah she was chronologically 23, but with the women we have seen that usually makes them emotionally mature as 15 year old. An easily manipulated young women without a thought in her head that a man didn't tell her to think. People are up in arms about concern for Meredith that someone from the outside only wants to marry her for nefarious reasons. How is this any different?

My sympathy goes to her. The whole story reads as two dogs fighting over a bone.

Flame away.

ETA: btw, if you can find anything on through google searches let me know. I can't find anything.

Not flaming you but age gaps are common. My mother is 17 years older than her husband. Age gaps happen.

Her chronological age versus her developmental age became clearer and clearer to Lewis as he dealt with her and her family. It was not until he became immersed in patriarchy and that family's bizarre manner of dealing with life that he started to understand how limited she was. But entering into it, he was not familiar with patriarchy and could not have known the impact on her psyche until well after he was in love with her. At that point, what was he to do? Abandon her in the interest of not seeming like he was influencing her in a "nefarious" manner? Had he done so I can only imagine how little you would think of him for not trying harder to save this young woman from a life wherein she would continue to have no life but the one the men said she could have.

What on earth leads you to think Lewis wanted to marry this young woman for nefarious reasons? You are comparing his courtship with her to a family accepting a known and convicted child molester for their daughter's husband. I don't even begin to understand your motives and making such an accusation veers into character assassination. Older people marry younger people and people become romantically involved with broken people before they understand the depth of the person's mental misery. Neither of those come close to being nefarious reasons.

ETA: I wanted to double check but I can't find any of the threads about the girl who is engaged to the known pedophile because I think those were the ones that got deleted by Yuku. If that is not what you were referring to, I fully expect and deserve to be schooled, but that was the first nefarious thing that came to mind.