19th century women had backup plans

[Lady Mondegreen]

Just came across a passage addressing a situation so often brought up here...

From the preface to "The Handbook of Dressmaking" by Mrs. M.J.Howell, 1845

It would be to the advantage of every family of moderate means to have their daughters instructed in this useful profession, for, should they even be so happily situated through life, as not to require their own talents or exertions for their support, it is a knowledge that will not be oppressive to them, nor interfere with their comfort. Or if, on the contrary, by a painful reverse of fortune they be thrown on the world without any apparent resource, they would find the benefit of having devoted a short time to a pursuit that would enable them to rise about misfortune, and give them the means on an honourable existence. It has been my pleasing task to instruct several young ladies in their day of prosperity, who have since, by painful bereavements, been placed in positions requiring their personal exertions, and have, happily, succeeded in obtaining situations of great respectability through my introduction.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gPgDAA ... &q&f=false

(Not breaking the link to Google because Google doesn't care ;) )

And that doesn't even cover the women from families not "of moderate means," who expected to work from the outset. A much larger portion of the population than most people assume, really.

Note to any fundies reading: this is not a suggestion that dressmaking is a viable backup profession now. There's only room for so many Jennie Chanceys in the world, and it took her years of support from her husband to turn her patterns into a large, viable business.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Just came across a passage addressing a situation so often brought up here...

From the preface to "The Handbook of Dressmaking" by Mrs. M.J.Howell, 1845

http://books.google.com/books?id=gPgDAA ... &q&f=false

(Not breaking the link to Google because Google doesn't care ;) )

And that doesn't even cover the women from families not "of moderate means," who expected to work from the outset. A much larger portion of the population than most people assume, really.

Note to any fundies reading: this is not a suggestion that dressmaking is a viable backup profession now. There's only room for so many Jennie Chanceys in the world, and it took her years of support from her husband to turn her patterns into a large, viable business.

Honestly, what do fundies do if their husband dies? Realistically? do they seriously expect charity to the point where mom can stay home all day? REALLY?

[lilwriter85]

Honestly, what do fundies do if their husband dies? Realistically? do they seriously expect charity to the point where mom can stay home all day? REALLY?

Some of them do, there have been a few bloggers who believe that churches should provide for widows. That isn't realistic today due to the economy and there are a few churches that I know of, that only give limited financial support. Also some fundies would probably contact Harvest the Gleen or whatever that organization is called. I have heard some fundie widows who set up home businesses.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Officially as lilwriter85 says, the church (NOT the state or country!!) is supposed to provide, according to people I've pressed on the issue in chat forums. Call me skeptical.

Otherwise the ideal situation is there's a son old enough to step in and provide for Mom. But if not...? In the modern day, I wonder if people have left fundie communities over this. VF and its ilk aside, a lot of these really strict rightwing meeting-in-somone's-house churches aren't all that well off, and the people attending them aren't all that well off. Even if they are sincere and try to provide, is it really going to be enough? Particularly if Mom already has quite a few dependent kids but none are yet working age?

It's interesting to see the google cite up there, it rings familiar as I seem to recall lots of widowed or otherwise "unfortunate women" dressmaker characters in books. Also when Laura Ingalls wants to earn some cash money, that's the way she does it as an unwed teen still living at home (she was getting paid for her work, but also training). Of course there's horror stories of families doing piecework in tenements too.

Home business would be ideal (for the same reasons as the dressmaking back then) but... you need some serious skills and even then it's hard and time-consuming work, to be able to sell ONLY from your house, too, would be hard. People say "sell over the net" but while I have relatives who do that (they make soap) that's not enough, they're constantly travelling around the country selling in person and also setting up consignments (the shops buying are small also, and they want to meet in person). It takes a lot of hard work and hustling.

Drifting off topic here surely but I remember the arguments in various online forums when certain regulations were passed for toys, there was a big rift between the people who wanted to make a few things at the kitchen table now and then, complaining they couldn't make a go of it because people wouldn't pay enough, and other home business people who had "upped their game" and invested in a room and proper tools (just dedicating a bedroom even - it was more of a mindset thing) and serious bookkeepping and they were being pretty harsh realists toward the dabblers, no one is going to buy your stuff out of pity or because you're a nice Christian Mom. Not enough people to make a living off of, anyway. You need to go "pro" enough to be able to knock out PRECISE goods on time, usually in large batches. If you want to do a home business, expect to work MORE than you would in an office or factory for someone else. My relatives would echo that sentiment too.

[Lady Mondegreen]

Some of them do, there have been a few bloggers who believe that churches should provide for widows. That isn't realistic today due to the economy and there are a few churches that I know of, that only give limited financial support. All some fundies would probably contact Harvest the Gleen or whatever that organization is called. I have heard some fundie widows who set up home businesses.

How often does this actually work out? I have a few friends/acquaintances who are doing the husband works/wife stays home, homeschools the kids, and runs a home business thing, but to my knowledge the only cases where the "stay at home mom" makes enough money she could conceivably support everyone in an emergency, it's because "work at home" means "telecommute at the job her Masters degree landed her, stashing the kids with another family once or twice a week to get to meetings at the office," and they usually have only 1-3 kids. The ones selling crafts on Etsy pretty much budget using husband's income only for actual necessities and then spend the unpredictable money they earn on extras. Or make a real, steady income by working their asses off and spending half their time on the road selling at fairs, shows, conventions, and have less time for their kids than they would at an office job. I mean, I realize some of this is that I live in an expensive city (one with a lot of well-paying technology jobs). But seriously.

(and as I type this, gardenvarietycitizen says pretty much the same thing, ha.)

[lilwriter85]

How often does this actually work out? I have a few friends/acquaintances who are doing the husband works/wife stays home, homeschools the kids, and runs a home business thing, but to my knowledge the only cases where the "stay at home mom" makes enough money she could conceivably support everyone in an emergency, it's because "work at home" means "telecommute at the job her Masters degree landed her, stashing the kids with another family once or twice a week to get to meetings at the office," and they usually have only 1-3 kids. The ones selling crafts on Etsy pretty much budget using husband's income only for actual necessities and then spend the unpredictable money they earn on extras. Or make a real, steady income by working their asses off and spending half their time on the road selling at fairs, shows, conventions, and have less time for their kids than they would at an office job. I mean, I realize some of this is that I live in an expensive city (one with a lot of well-paying technology jobs). But seriously.

(and as I type this, gardenvarietycitizen says pretty much the same thing, ha.)

I agree not all home businesses work out well for different reasons.

[lilwriter85]

Officially as lilwriter85 says, the church (NOT the state or country!!) is supposed to provide, according to people I've pressed on the issue in chat forums. Call me skeptical.

Otherwise the ideal situation is there's a son old enough to step in and provide for Mom. But if not...? In the modern day, I wonder if people have left fundie communities over this. VF and its ilk aside, a lot of these really strict rightwing meeting-in-somone's-house churches aren't all that well off, and the people attending them aren't all that well off. Even if they are sincere and try to provide, is it really going to be enough? Particularly if Mom already has quite a few dependent kids but none are yet working age?

It's interesting to see the google cite up there, it rings familiar as I seem to recall lots of widowed or otherwise "unfortunate women" dressmaker characters in books. Also when Laura Ingalls wants to earn some cash money, that's the way she does it as an unwed teen still living at home (she was getting paid for her work, but also training). Of course there's horror stories of families doing piecework in tenements too.

Home business would be ideal (for the same reasons as the dressmaking back then) but... you need some serious skills and even then it's hard and time-consuming work, to be able to sell ONLY from your house, too, would be hard. People say "sell over the net" but while I have relatives who do that (they make soap) that's not enough, they're constantly travelling around the country selling in person and also setting up consignments (the shops buying are small also, and they want to meet in person). It takes a lot of hard work and hustling.

Drifting off topic here surely but I remember the arguments in various online forums when certain regulations were passed for toys, there was a big rift between the people who wanted to make a few things at the kitchen table now and then, complaining they couldn't make a go of it because people wouldn't pay enough, and other home business people who had "upped their game" and invested in a room and proper tools (just dedicating a bedroom even - it was more of a mindset thing) and serious bookkeepping and they were being pretty harsh realists toward the dabblers, no one is going to buy your stuff out of pity or because you're a nice Christian Mom. Not enough people to make a living off of, anyway. You need to go "pro" enough to be able to knock out PRECISE goods on time, usually in large batches. If you want to do a home business, expect to work MORE than you would in an office or factory for someone else. My relatives would echo that sentiment too.

I have also encountered the people who believe churches should provide for widows and their kids. Some of the bloggers we discuss here have suggested that. Crazy Latisha did a Q&A post once, and someone asked her if a woman whose husband died should enter the workforce. Latisha said the woman should either remarry or seek support from a church. I remember laughing when I read that because as I mentioned before there are churches that limit how much financial support they can give to people. I know of one church that a friend of mine attends, that has a 3 month limit for people seeking financial support and after that the church will refer the people in need to non-profit organizations or government agencies.

[Wolfie]

Drifting off topic here surely but I remember the arguments in various online forums when certain regulations were passed for toys, there was a big rift between the people who wanted to make a few things at the kitchen table now and then, complaining they couldn't make a go of it because people wouldn't pay enough, and other home business people who had "upped their game" and invested in a room and proper tools (just dedicating a bedroom even - it was more of a mindset thing) and serious bookkeepping and they were being pretty harsh realists toward the dabblers, no one is going to buy your stuff out of pity or because you're a nice Christian Mom. Not enough people to make a living off of, anyway. You need to go "pro" enough to be able to knock out PRECISE goods on time, usually in large batches. If you want to do a home business, expect to work MORE than you would in an office or factory for someone else. My relatives would echo that sentiment too.

I actually still see the issues with this, as I lurk on diaper making forums. It isn't just the small timers with issues with the kids stuff now because the rules are vague and they keep changing.

But I do have to disagree with you that when you make stuff it has to be a full time job. I make and sell stuff on the side, and treat it like a part time job- but that also means that I expect a part time income from it.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

But I do have to disagree with you that when you make stuff it has to be a full time job. I make and sell stuff on the side, and treat it like a part time job- but that also means that I expect a part time income from it.

I only mean to say, if you want to make your entire living off it, it will end up being same as any other job. On the side, sure, people do stuff on the side for extra income. And you also do treat it like a job.

But people thinking that having a home business is going to be an "easier" way to make enough income to raise a family with a bunch of kids on when there is no other person in the household working, are in for a harsh awakening I think.

[bbfreethinker]

This post is making me curious about the family whose father was killed in the Alabama tornado, was it the Lee's? Is Vision Forum or their church supporting them?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

This post is making me curious about the family whose father was killed in the Alabama tornado, was it the Lee's? Is Vision Forum or their church supporting them?

Not sure (I'm curious too!) but I thought at least one of their kids is a working-age boy. I remember thinking at the time that I felt sorry for that kid, because he's going to be expected to quit whatever starts at his own independent life and take on his birth family as dependents already so young.

But, I might be confusing them with another family.

[lilwriter85]

This post is making me curious about the family whose father was killed in the Alabama tornado, was it the Lee's? Is Vision Forum or their church supporting them?

I think that family did receive support from VF, their church and a couple of other fundie organizations. Kelly at GC wrote about them a few times.

[YPestis]

I had a college friend, progressive/liberal leaning and aspiring doc who had a small conservative streak that turned into into full blown right wing in her twenties (long, sad story regarding that change). She always wanted to be a SAHM, but after her fundie turn, she began writing on the evils of two income homes. When asked about the dangers of being divorced, widowed etc, she replied welfare could be wholly supported by churches and private charity. Gov't need not apply.

Fast forward a year later, her husband gets laid off. She immediately starts asking around about job options for herself. Having never had a career, and out of the work force for a small amount of time, she found finding one difficult in a recession. My friend ended up depending on husband's unemployment benefits which became a form of welfare as it was constantly extended. She also went back to school for classes which eventually got her a full time job and became the breadwinner. Her husband is still languishing in unemployment hell. Of course, now she's a full supporter of working parents, of the importance of having marketable skills etc. .

I often wonder how many fundie women would walk out on fundi-dom when their lifestyle forces their family to starve. What if they found out that having no income doesn't mean the small church will support their large family indefinitely? Or that being a divorced mom doesn't mean food will magically arrive to feed a family of 10 every day? Sometimes, the cold economic reality can turn a person to the moderate center more easily than any article or study will ever do.

[lilwriter85]

I had a college friend, progressive/liberal leaning and aspiring doc who had a small conservative streak that turned into into full blown right wing in her twenties (long, sad story regarding that change). She always wanted to be a SAHM, but after her fundie turn, she began writing on the evils of two income homes. When asked about the dangers of being divorced, widowed etc, she replied welfare could be wholly supported by churches and private charity. Gov't need not apply.

Fast forward a year later, her husband gets laid off. She immediately starts asking around about job options for herself. Having never had a career, and out of the work force for a small amount of time, she found finding one difficult in a recession. My friend ended up depending on husband's unemployment benefits which became a form of welfare as it was constantly extended. She also went back to school for classes which eventually got her a full time job and became the breadwinner. Her husband is still languishing in unemployment hell. Of course, now she's a full supporter of working parents, of the importance of having marketable skills etc. .

I often wonder how many fundie women would walk out on fundi-dom when their lifestyle forces their family to starve. What if they found out that having no income doesn't mean the small church will support their large family indefinitely? Or that being a divorced mom doesn't mean food will magically arrive to feed a family of 10 every day? Sometimes, the cold economic reality can turn a person to the moderate center more easily than any article or study will ever do.

I wonder the same thing too. I give your friend credit for going out and get the skills. I think some fundie women would learn pretty quickly that a small church can not support them indefinitely. In a previous post I mentioned my friend's church, which only gives support for three months. This church isn't a fundie church, but there was an incident in which a widow with a teenage daughter had the attitude that church was supposed to provide for them in various ways. The mom lied about finding jobs. She told people that a grocery store chain refused to hire her, but it turned out she never applied. The church members found a lot of fishy things about her and my friend always got bad vibes about her. Things got ugly when the woman went to other churches claiming that my friend's church refused to help her and her daughter. After that woman left the church, the council and pastor decided to come up a policy about financial help. I know of other churches who have similar policies and there is one church that encourages people who receive financial help to read a Dave Ramsey book as a way of helping them manage money better in the future.

[bananacat]

Women have always worked, even the married ones. Even the women of high status had diplomatic stuff to take care of to keep their husbands' positions. Hosting parties to meet with very specific etiquette requirements was surely better than spending 12 hours a day in a factory or on a farm, but it was still work with a lot of responsibility. I don't believe that there has ever been a society in human history where half the population could just afford to not work beyond caring for their own children. Yes, childcare is hard work but women have always had to work even harder than that. The difference is that in the past, they didn't get the recognition they deserved, and they didn't get fair pay or the chance to move up the company ladder. Feminism isn't about wrenching mothers away from their kids to go to work; it's about letting women do what they've always done but get paid fairly for it.

[Wolfie]

I only mean to say, if you want to make your entire living off it, it will end up being same as any other job. On the side, sure, people do stuff on the side for extra income. And you also do treat it like a job.

But people thinking that having a home business is going to be an "easier" way to make enough income to raise a family with a bunch of kids on when there is no other person in the household working, are in for a harsh awakening I think.

True. The two small side businesses take up a lot of my time. But at least I enjoy them.

[jenny_islander]

Feminism isn't about wrenching mothers away from their kids to go to work; it's about letting women do what they've always done but get paid fairly for it.

I wish more people understood this!

[liltwinstar]

Victorian novels are *filled* with women who have to take on paid work in order to survive. I think a majority of the Bronte novels are about women who are either governesses or who are training to be governesses in order to survive themselves or to help out widowed mothers. I'm reading Nicholas Nickelby right now, and Miss Nickelby has to get a job in a dressmaking shop to help her family. Esther Summerson in Bleak House works (sort of unofficially, since she's not paid in cash) as a companion to a wealthier woman. Even the elderly Miss Mattie in Cranford has to open a tea shop to make her ends meet, much to the chagrin of her "genteel" neighbors.

Money and the procurement of it has always been a vital issue for women/families...and for VF and other types to think that money will rain down from the sky because of "obedience" to God is just ridiculous.

[Justme]

Remember too, that hundred's of years ago, a majority were Catholic. Unmarried women (either they couldn't find a husband, had an "indescression", ;) or their families couldn't afford a dowery) became Nuns. Many chose to become Nuns, but a lot were placed there when there was no other place for them.

[mirele]

Remember too, that hundred's of years ago, a majority were Catholic. Unmarried women (either they couldn't find a husband, had an "indescression", ;) or their families couldn't afford a dowery) became Nuns. Many chose to become Nuns, but a lot were placed there when there was no other place for them.

I remember years ago reading a book by the late, great Mexican poet and writer, Octavio Paz, about Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, one of the early poets/playwriters of Mexico (It's called Sor Juana, or the Traps of Faith http://www.amazon.com/Sor-Juana-Traps-O ... 0674821068.) Sor Juana was in an uncomfortable position in society--she was a mixed-race bastard child of a high-ranking Spanish captain who was not part of her life. However, she was apparently very pretty, very well-spoken and very interested in wanting to further her education. (At one point she asked her mother if she could disguise herself as a boy to attend the university--her mother said no.) She received a number of marriage proposals but chose to enter the convent.

What I got from reading Paz's book was that this decision was taken not so much because de la Cruz had a religious motivation, but was a very calculated decision on her part. She'd apparently sat down and thought about it and decided she didn't have too many choices--either to marry (and she would have been able to marry fairly high in colonial society) or to become a nun. If she married, she would have been expected to run a household and have children and take the risk of dying in childbirth, but if she went into the monastery, she'd have to devote herself to religious tasks part of the time, but she'd also be able to have a servant (!) and could write. She chose the monastery. This worked out very well for her until she crossed the Church and the Inquisition. Most of her works were destroyed and she was forced into a life of penitence. She died nursing her other sisters during an epidemic.

Another thing I remember from the book was a description of the penitential practices the nuns (not so much the nuns of her order, but in general, in Mexico, at the time) would do in response to epidemics--licking the ground of the monastery's internal plaza was one of the things that stood out. YIKES.

(Tempted to send this book to the Botkin sisters--ladies, there are more choices than what you have in your world.)

[Peas n carrots]

Women certainly worked outside the home, especially working class women. Actually, everyone in the family who was able bodied worked in most cases. The women who lived on farms worked their asses off too. Even my grandma, 1950's housewife worked a few evenings a week at a bowling alley. Many of her friends had part time jobs to bring in a little extra cash.

I second that if you want to make a decent living with selling stuff, you better have the equipment and advanced skills to do so, as well as the ability to market yourself.

[2xx1xy1JD]

My grandmother was widowed in the 1950s, with two kids, and my diabetic grandfather hadn't qualified for life insurance. She worked as a secretary and real estate agent, and also started buying rental property. I remember her showing me the notebooks she kept, showing the list of tenants and rent collection. She was very much a "lady", but knew damn well the importance of being economically self-sufficient.

I've known women with home dressmaking/alterations businesses or home-based stores. My mom always used them. We only had a few items made for us (including my bridesmaid dresses), but frequently had items altered. It would be hard to compete today with cheap mass-produced clothes unless you had special niche, but decent alterations are still needed. I also prefer the service in my favorite basement store - I get items that aren't available elsewhere, and the owner knows me and lets me know right away what items may work for me or my kids (and she's honest enough to tell me what doesn't work too). She runs it as a serious business, that just happens to be located in her basement.

[lilwriter85]

Women certainly worked outside the home, especially working class women. Actually, everyone in the family who was able bodied worked in most cases. The women who lived on farms worked their asses off too. Even my grandma, 1950's housewife worked a few evenings a week at a bowling alley. Many of her friends had part time jobs to bring in a little extra cash.

I second that if you want to make a decent living with selling stuff, you better have the equipment and advanced skills to do so, as well as the ability to market yourself.

My paternal grandmother also worked part time or seasonal jobs outside the house for 20 years (50's-70's). She and another friend use to commute to near by ski resort town to clean hotel rooms. The cleaning job she had was usually a morning job. After work, she would head back home and do some chores and cooking.

[AnnoDomini]

Or if, on the contrary, by a painful reverse of fortune they be thrown on the world without any apparent resource, they would find the benefit of having devoted a short time to a pursuit that would enable them to rise about misfortune

Oh man, I read the OP in a hurry and saw this and thought 'they're teaching their daughters that prostitution* is a good fallback plan?'

*Not judging prostitution, by the way.

[Phyllis Stein]

My grandmother, working class and born in the late 1800s, worked at a factory. When the factories closed she found work as a domestic.

She insisted that my mother stay in school and obtain her HS diploma, an opportunity she did not have.

My mother, born in the late 20s, was a secretary. When she married my father they had a small business together. After more babies came she was a sahm until the youngest (me) was 12. She went back to work as a secretary.

My mother insisted that I take a typing class in school so that I would always have a fallback skill no matter what happened or what choices I made. She also encouraged me to obtain a college degree, and opporunity she didn't have.

The difference between the families of yesteryear and the fundies of today is that the families of yesteryear dealt with reality instead of trying to engineer a fantasy-based unsustainable society. Reality was that everyone had to eat and have shelter, and everyone in the family had to pitch in. More skills meant more ability to stay afloat. The more a family could offer their children in terms of skills and education, the better.

Of course women back in the day had many fewer choices because many occupations were not open to them. The fundies would like to see this again but even more so, and with women so sheltered and uneducated that they would have even less to work with should they need to find paying work.