Argument about Catholics

[slh12280]

I was having a conversation with my mother about the differences between how Catholics and Protestants vote. This eventually devolved into a Catholic/Protestant debate (which I should have known was coming.) Now, I consider myself to still be a somewhat conservative Protestant but the whole thing about Catholics not really being Christians is starting to wear on me. I was brought up this way and it took me a while to come to a place where I don't exactly think like that. Anyway she basically said that Catholics are more liberals voters in general because they aren't really Christians. I think that Catholics or Protestants can be real Christians and you have to take it on a case by case basis. You can't measure someone's faith based on affiliations necessarily. I think going to a Catholic college for a year and meeting really dedicated Catholics really helped to change my mind on that. To me they were genuine Christians as any Protestants.

Just had to get this out here.

[mnb357]

Growing up where I did, for the longest time the only Christians I ever knew were Catholics. I thought they were one and the same. (I was mercifully shielded from religion by my parents until I was old enough to figure it out on my own.) In any case, the whole "Catholics aren't Christians" thing pisses me off. It seems to me the way they worship would be closer to the way the early Christians did, doesn't it?

[ilovetchotchkes]

As an ex-Catholic the whole "Catholics aren't Christians" pisses me off. The definition of Christianity as far as I understand it is that you believe that Jesus showed up, died for sins, was crucified and rose 3 days later. Right? So, Catholics , who believe that, AREN'T somehow Christian? Oh I forgot they're a bunch of idol worshipers w/ the saints *eye roll*. The way a good Catholic friend explained it to me, is that they see it as, you pray to the saint to intercede on your behalf. I don't' GET it but hey, if that's what helps you sleep at night? go for it!

If Catholics are not Christians, than who is the guy hanging out on the giant cross in the middle of my parent's church?

I LEFT the Catholic church precisely because I was NOT a Christian and knew it. Good to know I could have spared my mother a ton of heartbreak!

[slh12280]

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Do Catholics not do this? They ask forgiveness of their sins at confession.

Yes, I have theological differences with Catholics. Yes, not all professing Catholics are sincere Christians, as are not all Protestants, but you get my point.

[doggie]

I think for quit a few christians the only true christians are the ones that belong to the same church you do.

[little zoo]

My parents are German Catholics, and they are the most conservative people I know. My mom votes for candidates based on their stance on abortion, down to the county commissioner. I'm Protestant, but am very liberal.

Go figure.

[ADoyle90815]

I think for quit a few christians the only true christians are the ones that belong to the same church you do.

[Juniper]

I know a lot of Roman Catholics who vote liberal and a lot who vote conservative. I think it really depends on what state you live in. The South generally votes conservative and a lot of Catholics down there do too. I lived in the Midwest for a while and people in my state tended to vote liberal and the Catholics I knew there did too, in large part. Right now I'm in the Northeast and I know a lot that go either way. Of course the caveat is that some vote liberal in the south and conservative elsewhere but I've found it's more location based.

I'm not going to even get into the whole "Catholics aren't Christians" portion. After living in the South for a long time, I've heard every argument why I'm apparently not a Christian although I attend church weekly and all those other good things. Of course moving to *gasp* yankee land and entering a profession filled with the ebil gays hasn't really endeared me to those people much anyway. :D

[divadivine]

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Do Catholics not do this? They ask forgiveness of their sins at confession.

Yes, I have theological differences with Catholics. Yes, not all professing Catholics are sincere Christians, as are not all Protestants, but you get my point.

Well, considering the Nicene Creed states

"I believe in one God,

the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth,

of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,

the Only Begotten Son of God,

born of the Father before all ages..."

I think it's fairly safe to say Catholics are Christians. I know I consider myself a Catholic Christian.

I love how fundies and other people who don't take the time to actually learn something about the Catholic faith automatically assume we don't believe in Jesus and we worship saints. One of my sorority sisters (also Catholic) was singing "Jesus Loves Me" one day around the house (long story...) one of the other girls (hardcore Baptist) was shocked the Catholic sister knew "Jesus Loves Me". It took hours to explain to her that Catholics do believe in Jesus and to answer all the questions she had because she had always been told Catholics were heathens, not true Christians and basically horrible people. She almost flipped out when the Catholic sister explained that Catholics believe the Catholic Church is the one true Church..... Where do all the other denominations think they evolved from??

I would like the Fundies to chew on this one....

Catholics believe that theirs is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, firstly, because theirs is the only Christian Church that goes back in history to the time of Christ; secondly, because theirs is the only Christian Church which possesses the invincible unity, the intrinsic holiness, the continual universality and the indisputable apostolicity which Christ said would distinguish His true Church; and thirdly, because the Apostles and primitive Church Fathers, who certainly were members of Christ's true Church, all professed membership in this same Catholic Church (See Apostles' Creed and the Primitive Christian letters). Wrote Ignatius of Antioch, illustrious Church Father of the first century: ``Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church.'' Our Lord said: ``There shall be one fold and one shepherd, yet it is well known that the various Christian denominations cannot agree on what Christ actually taught. Since Christ roundly condemned interdenominationalism (``And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.'' Mark 3:25), Catholics cannot believe that He would ever sanction it in His Church.

[Conuly]

Where do all the other denominations think they evolved from?

Well, in the case of the Eastern Orthodox churches... the Great Schism, perhaps?

Anyway she basically said that Catholics are more liberals voters in general because they aren't really Christians.

Wait, am I the first one to notice that she basically said that there are no issues in which a Christian will take a more liberal political approach?

[slh12280]

Well, in the case of the Eastern Orthodox churches... the Great Schism, perhaps?

Wait, am I the first one to notice that she basically said that there are no issues in which a Christian will take a more liberal political approach?

I think she was just starting to get annoyed with me. I think she meant that Christians should vote socially conservative, which was confusing because I always thought Catholics were pretty socially conservative (pro-life, not for gay marriage). Note: I am referring to the official stances of the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe the social justice issue is what makes them liberal?

I just gotta tell this story too. I used to go to a conservative baptist church, and my best friend is Catholic. She used to come with me, as her parents were okay with her being exposed to other viewpoints. Our pastor told her flat out that Catholics were wrong and she needed to become a Christian. Needless to say she didn't want to come back and still has a negative view of baptists :x

[SunnyCrisp]

I grew up in Germany, and the first time I ever heard anyone say that Catholics aren't actually Christians was when I went to school in the States. I didn't even understand what they meant, I thought it was the language barrier. lol

[dianapavelovna]

I don't claim a religious affiliation anymore, but Catholic was the only one I ever did, and the idea that Catholics aren't Christians probably chaps my ass more than almost anything else. Maybe it's all the church history I sat through in Catholic school, but it bugs that people don't realize how Protestantism evolved...it's right there in the world - "protest."

Catholics pray to Mary (they don't "worship" her) because the best way to get what you want from a guy is to get his mother on your side.

Catholics pray to saints (don't "worship" them, either!) so they'll trot on over to Jesus's office in heaven and ask for a favor.

I could go on...

[anniebgood]

Lutheran's use the Nicene as well as the Apostle's creed and both have the Holy catholic church. We take it as the catholic church meaning universal church.

Martin Luther was a Catholic monk and his wife Katerina was nun. One of the main schisms between him and the church was the selling of indulgences.

If I believed Catholics were not Christians, why did I spend all that money on those in my family who are? My brother was a Catholic convert and he was a much better Catholic than his wife.

[keen23]

I grew up in Massachusetts, in a town that was probably 80% Catholic. There are Catholics of all political persuasion- from super conservative to super liberal and everything in between.

[PennySycamore]

Wait, am I the first one to notice that she basically said that there are no issues in which a Christian will take a more liberal political approach?

Nope, you're not the only one. There are many Christians who believe that liberal/progressive political stands are more consistent with the Gospel.

[ladypuglover]

Maybe because I had a forward thinking mother who would never let anyone bad talk another religion no more than she would allow negative talk about another race or political leanings....

Maybe because I grew up in a town with 90% Catholics....

Maybe I got to know the nuns and preists who came to visit me everyday in the hospital and made me feel loved and cherished even though I wasn't of their faith...

...That I never thought that Catholics were anything other than Christian.

Without the Catholic Church we wouldn't have the other denominations, right?

Without Catholics we wouldn't have had a lot of things.

[Maul the Koala]

Where do all the other denominations think they evolved from??

I'm Henry VIII I am...

I was baptized Anglican and knew the history of The Church of England from the time I was very small. It was important to my mom that I knew the history. So much for knowing the Bible and all that, pfffft... The history was more important. I'm atheist now but I'm always amused by the hate on for Catholics by other denominations. I can understand the history of the Catholic church isn't one of the best ones to look at (but damn, it's interesting!). I often think a lot of people who think Catholicism is strange would drop dead at the sight of an Eastern Orthodox service. ;)

Speaking of which, are there any Orthodox fundies out there?

[darareaksmey]

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Do Catholics not do this? They ask forgiveness of their sins at confession.

Yes, I have theological differences with Catholics. Yes, not all professing Catholics are sincere Christians, as are not all Protestants, but you get my point.[/quote]

There you have it. I disagree with Catholics on many, many points, but I would never call the whole lot of them non-Christian.

[clarinetpower]

Luther didn't leave the Catholic church. He attempted to reform it to bring the practices back to what was in the Scripture. Catholicism has a lot of things that are tradition-based, not from the Bible. He didn't want out, he wanted to fix it. They got mad and kicked him out. In this definition, "The One True Church" is of all believers in Christ, not those who have priests who don't marry (not in the Bible), pray to Mary and Saints (not in scripture), believe Mary was born without sin and remained a Virgin her whole life (not in Scripture), or believe there's a difference between believers and saints (not in scripture--Jesus didn't invent canonization.) The protestant denominations split off because of a desire to worship in different ways (Methodists have certain methods, Presbyterians was more concerned with church governance, Anglicans were headed by the King), but all believe in Christ ultimately, which is His Church.

Ultimately, each and every one of us (referring to Christians) are responsible for our own walk with Jesus. Whether or not someone is a True Christian--not my job to judge. It's Jesus's. (That's what He said. In Scripture.)

[clarinetpower]

And note, Luther was upset about the term "Lutheran". He just thought he was reforming THE church, not creating a new one.

[Nothing2CHere]

I often think a lot of people who think Catholicism is strange would drop dead at the sight of an Eastern Orthodox service. ;)

Or a Byzantine Catholic service, because it looks an awful lot like an Eastern Orthodox church and liturgy, but what do you mean you follow the pope???

[stabbycat]

My cousin went to Romania to convert Eastern Orthodox Christians to whatever evangelist denomination she follows. I wasn't aware they needed to be converted, but she went on in her blog post about how the churches had big scary symbols (I don't know what she was referring to here). She also went to Zambia and burned good luck charms. Her mother was raised Catholic, so I would hope she considers them Christians, but probably not.

[JesusFightClub]

In Scotland there's still a fair bit of sectarianism and history and politics get all mixed up in it. So much so I can't really separate them all out in my head.

I was told in school Catholicism was a false religion and though "Catholics are sincere" they were Doing It Wrong. In discussing it with my mum on the back of this thread, I remember "adding to the Bible" and "praying to humans" and "praying for the dead" as issues, the first being the worst. I just thought they were people who did strange things like supporting Celtic ;) but as I never paid that much attention to what the minister said, I didn't think the less of them that I recall.

[1004srs]

Well, I am Catholic and consider myself Christian. We aren't all cut out of the same mold. So, we don't all vote the same way.