Introduction and comments about the Lindvalls

[Almost Quiverfull]

I've been lurking here for a while and while doing so I thought of so many comments I wanted to make - I just had to go ahead and register.

I call myself "Almost Quiverfull" because I almost got sucked into the quiverfull lifestyle. Fortunately for me my husband despises Gothard and so we would never get caught dead at a seminar. However, in '92 he informed me that we would be homeschooling. We were in Kansas at the time (not too terribly far from Leavenworth where the Max family is) and we were attending a very homeschool friendly church and so it seemed like the right thing to do. In '94 I had my 4th child and we moved to a different state. I had my 5th and 6th in '96 and '98. I never enjoyed homeschooling, especially with toddlers hugging my knees all day. I knew also that the 6th child would be the last. My husband wanted homeschooling because he saw how mature and smart other homeschooling kids were, but he didn't give a damn about all that patriarchy stuff. My youngest three have been in public school for several years and it was such a relief to stop homeschooling.

Anyway, I wanted to raise some questions about the Lindvalls. I found Lindvall's website a few years back and read that gag inducing article that Bethany wrote in '98. Does anyone know how that family is doing. The last thing I read was that Jonathan was teaching in public school (now that was a shocker). I've always felt sorry for Bethany. Jonathan's dil had a blog for a while and had posted some pictures of the family. They actually seem like pretty normal people and Bethany and her mom were wearing jeans and capris. Bethany seemed like a pretty homely little thing for a while, but in some of the pictures she was actually quite pretty and has a nice figure. Isn't she like 31 now. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that she's in the same trap that Sarah Maxwell is in (I've followed the Maxwell's blog for a while). I found Bethany's FB page and she has tons of friends, so why isn't that girl in a courtship???? Just wondering.

[Bookworm]

I don't know why she has not been able to marry yet either, but my best guess is that the way she was a poster child discouraged people from applying to her father. I do know she is now in college and seems to be enjoying it. Her younger brother is engaged now, BTW. I really hope she finds some great guy who sweeps her off her feet.

ETA: I also meant to say "welcome," and glad you escaped some of the crazyiness that is out there.

[Almost Quiverfull]

I did not know that Bethany was in college. I'm glad to hear it. I just looked over at the Bold Christian Living website and noticed that Jonathan had posted an article. Things have been quiet on that website for a long time, so I was wondering what was going on esp. since the Lindvall dil discontinued her blog a long time ago. Anyway, Jonathan was not rehired in his teaching job and is looking to go back to selling a book about the principles he's espoused over the years. Ugh! I sure hope that doesn't spell the end to Bethany's new found freedom. I really would like to see her break away from that whole cultish family thing they've had going. With all that said, when I was lurking on the dil's blog I really felt like there was hope for the Lindvalls. They seem like really genuine good down to earth people. When I saw the mom in a pair of jeans I was like, "Yeah, you go girl!"

[Almost Quiverfull]

Oh, I meant to say thanks to Bookworm for the welcome. As I read Phillips, Lindvall, Lancaster (who seems to have disappeared from the limelight), Brown, et. al. I am also glad that I didn't get sucked into it any further than I did.

I also did not know that one of the other Lindvall boys is engaged. I hope it's not a betrotal a la the Chapmans. One of my first introductions into the wacky world of courtship was the article by Lindvall about Matthew and Maranatha. I couldn't believe that the girl couldn't even plan her own wedding. Some Gothardite friends of ours were encouraging us to start thinking about courtship early and so I started searching out the idea and ran into that article. That was enough to make me steer clear of the whole concept.

I'm glad to say that I have two children married and they chose their own spouses without any interference from their dad or me.

[alisonwhit]

I've been fascinated with the Lindvalls for years - I guess the were one of my gateway fundies. Do you have the link to the dil's blog? I've been hard pressed to dig up info on them since their website's been so quiet and they don't seem to mingle with other fundie families I follow although many of the families cite Lindvall as a teaching source. I hope Bethany's driving now - wasn't it Lindvall who said that her husband would decide whether or not she would drive? I may be getting her confused with another SAHD.

[browngrl]

Welcome to FJ!

I have not heard of the Lindvalls. I googled them but did not find out much. Do you have a link or what is their story?

Thanks.

[Almost Quiverfull]

Try googling Bold Christian Living. It's the website of Jonathan Lindvall, one of the heavy hitters in the courtship/betrothal movement. He has quite a few articles on his website which should keep you in stitches for a while. Be sure to read "A True Romantic Betrothal Example." It's the story of the betrothal of Matthew Chapman and Maranatha Owens which was entirely directed by her father. Maranatha was instructed to dress in her wedding dress every evening for several days because her dad wanted it to picture the coming of Jesus. I'll let you read all the rest of the weirdness for yourself. Matthew and Maranatha have a website so I'll look for the link to that. Robin Phillips is a man who grew up with Lindvalls teaching. Robin's parents were also heavy hitters in the courtship movement and he knew Lindvall personally. He's written a book called "The Way of a Man with a Maid" which can be downloaded directly off the internet. I can look for the link.

I've also wondered if Bethany was ever able to get her license. One time Lindvall said that Bethany was not allowed to go anywhere ever without a family member and if her parents die she will be under the authority and protection of one of her brothers. Poor girl.

[Almost Quiverfull]

Here is the link to the blog of Lindvalls dau-in-law, it seems to be a continuation of the one that at one time was defunct. I guess she just took a break for a while.

http://blog.thelindvalls.com/

Oh, alisonwhit, you are correct. Bethany Lindvall is the one who was not allowed to drive because her mom told her dad that she regretted the freedom that she had when she was a young girl and got a license and so she appealed to him not to let Bethany drive. I wonder if it was really his idea, but wanted to blame his wife.

[pixydust]

Welcome A-Q!

I don't don't know who the Lindvalls are (I will google them when I get home), but I know all about the Chapmans...you know their daighter got "married" at 15, right? She is 17 or 18 with 2 kids! (I used " " because, IIRC, she was too young to get married legally, so they had a church wedding then when she was older they legally got married....or am I confusing her with her mom?).

[browngrl]

Thanks for the link. *heads off to immerse in fundie wackiness*

[Almost Quiverfull]

Pixydust - I typed a reply and it seems to have gone off into cyberspace somewhere so I'll try again. It's been a long time since I looked at the Chapman's website, so I had not heard about the daughter. I know that Lindvall said in his article that Matthew was considerably older than Maranatha. I don't know how old she was when they got married, but when you look at a picture of them you can see the age difference. I'm guessing maybe 10 or 12 years.

I do remember seeing a picture on the Chapman's website where the oldest daughter has on a bracelet or handcuffs that are attached to a chain and the father is holding the chain. It was meant to symbolize that she belongs to her father until he releases her to her husband. Now I'm curious so I need to try and find their website again.

Here's a link to Robin Phillips' website where he is talking about his book exposing the courtship movement.

http://robinphillips.blogspot.com/2006/ ... al_30.html

[Bookworm]

Ugh, the Chapman thing squicks me out to no end. Even in my brief days of liking NGJ I never thought that story was cool or "romantic."

For more on Robin Phillips, there are several threads from the old days, before we got raptured, when he came and talked to us.

http://freejinger.yuku.com/reply/87174/ ... eply-87174

http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/3612/M ... ers?page=5

The Lindvalls used to have a Yahoo message board/newsletter thing, if you google it you can probably still find it. There was a LOT on there.

[browncoatslytherin]

I do remember seeing a picture on the Chapman's website where the oldest daughter has on a bracelet or handcuffs that are attached to a chain and the father is holding the chain. It was meant to symbolize that she belongs to her father until he releases her to her husband.

now that's just plain kinky. :hand:

and welcome to the madness that is fj!

[Almost Quiverfull]

Thanks SO - I found the Chapman's website and they've taken that picture down. I did discover that the oldest daughter has a blog which she calls "Wearing His Purity." She tells how she and her husband got together. It's strange, but not quite as creepy as her parents' betrothal. In all fairness to her, she does seem like a good mother and a very loving person. Her husband seems like an o.k. guy. He probably realized he couldn't get the girl unless he jumped through the hoops. What I find strange is that he talked to her parents about wanting to marry her and they never told her. She felt like he was the one she was supposed to marry and everytime she talked to her mother she just kept telling her to give it back to the Lord - knowing all along that he wanted to marry their daughter. He asked her to marry him and then they were free to get to know each other - weird, huh!

Thanks for those links, Bookworm, I will definately check those out.

[pixydust]

I do remember seeing a picture on the Chapman's website where the oldest daughter has on a bracelet or handcuffs that are attached to a chain and the father is holding the chain. It was meant to symbolize that she belongs to her father until he releases her to her husband. Now I'm curious so I need to try and find their website again.

That is just disturbing! Handcuffs are really sexual to me :whistle: and should not be a "father/daughter" thing...that is worse than a purity ball!

[Almost Quiverfull]

Absolutely Pixydust - I really wish I could find that picture again. I know they didn't mean it in a sexual way and I may be making the picture out to be worse than it is, but I thought it was extremely weird.

[pixydust]

Absolutely Pixydust - I really wish I could find that picture again. I know they didn't mean it in a sexual way and I may be making the picture out to be worse than it is, but I thought it was extremely weird.

No, I think that anytime a daughter is chained to her dad, it's just wrong! I'm sure they didn't mean it to be sexual (I'm sure that if Maranatha and Matthew(?) ever thought of doing something kinky like that, their heads would explode) but it's still wrong on so many levels....I can't imagine my husband ever feeling like he owned our daughter!

[Almost Quiverfull]

Oh, I absolutely agree with you Pixydust - it is very wrong on many levels. We are Christians who are recovering from an extremely bad fundy church (I've been to some good ones) but the pastor was a total egomaniac and tore the church apart - but that's a whole different topic. Anyway, we are pretty conservative, but we do not own our children. They have lives of their own and pick their own friends and their own spouses and they even pick their own music and go to movies. Tonight my youngest daughter was invited to a Nazarene church for a special celebration with their Hispanic ministry and then she's going to spend the night with a friend. We're downright liberal in the eyes of the Maxwells and the Lindvalls.

[browncoatslytherin]

Anyway, we are pretty conservative, but we do not own our children. They have lives of their own and pick their own friends and their own spouses and they even pick their own music and go to movies. Tonight my youngest daughter was invited to a Nazarene church for a special celebration with their Hispanic ministry and then she's going to spend the night with a friend. We're downright liberal in the eyes of the Maxwells and the Lindvalls.

kudos to you! that is an awesome attitude to have, and i wish more fundies had that attitude. :clap:

[SamuraiKatz]

It truly is amazing what one can find on the interwebz.....

Another creepy courtship story. Timothy Lindvall and his now wife Brittany

kingsfeet.forumotion.net/t1238-the-story-of-timothy-brittany-s-betrothal

[Almost Quiverfull]

Thanks SO. I became a Christian as a teen and I went to a really awesome fundy church. When I started reading about some of these crazy fundies I just couldn't believe that people treated their children, esp daughters, like property.

Samurai - I've seen Timothy and Brittany's courtship story, but never read it because it didn't seem like it was going to be as nutty as the Chapman's story. You've got me curious now so I'll be reading it.

[SamuraiKatz]

Thanks SO. I became a Christian as a teen and I went to a really awesome fundy church. When I started reading about some of these crazy fundies I just couldn't believe that people treated their children, esp daughters, like property.

Samurai - I've seen Timothy and Brittany's courtship story, but never read it because it didn't seem like it was going to be as nutty as the Chapman's story. You've got me curious now so I'll be reading it.

The wedding was weird but not as weird as the Chapman's. It also seems like they were betrothed longer than normal (18ish) months, as the father of the bride and the father of the groom were "not good communicators."

[pixydust]

Oh, I absolutely agree with you Pixydust - it is very wrong on many levels. We are Christians who are recovering from an extremely bad fundy church (I've been to some good ones) but the pastor was a total egomaniac and tore the church apart - but that's a whole different topic. Anyway, we are pretty conservative, but we do not own our children. They have lives of their own and pick their own friends and their own spouses and they even pick their own music and go to movies. Tonight my youngest daughter was invited to a Nazarene church for a special celebration with their Hispanic ministry and then she's going to spend the night with a friend. We're downright liberal in the eyes of the Maxwells and the Lindvalls.

Why, you are downright shameful! Haha, just kidding, I think it's great! It is great that you can balance your faith and not let it make you afraid of the world. I wish that more fundies could be like that!

[Almost Quiverfull]

Samurai, I read Timothy and Brittany's betrothal story this morning. It seems like Jonathan was trying emulate the Chapman's story to some extent. It's amazing to me that these guys talk to the father's first before they even know the girl. What I got out of their story was that Bethany had a choice to either wait for Timothy to become financially able to support and then become betrothed or go ahead with the betrothal and then wait until Timothy could support her. She chose the latter option. I didn't read about the wedding, but she did post pictures from the wedding a long time ago. If I remember correctly it looked a little bit like a hoe down instead of a fancy church wedding. It was certainly different. I'll have to look at her blog and see if those pictures are still there.

Yes, Pixy, we are quite shameful aren't we. It goes to show you can be a Christian without all the trappings. I remember reading about Steve Maxwell witnessing to this lady in Wal-Mart and he wasn't satisfied that she knew for certain she was "saved." He then wanted to know about her Bible reading habits. She became a little bit defensive (I think I would too) and so he hurriedly paid for his items and left.

[No KoolAid]

Jonathan Lindvall and Matthew Chapman gave a three day conference in our state. Very few came.

We were turned-off by what Lindvall/Chapman taught about daughters and "betrothals." It seemed perverted, almost incestuous and voyeuristic. It was like the dad and suitor had to fall in love first and spend inordinate amounts of time bonding together, discussing intimate things, during a period of "testing" and "discipleship" by the dad. The girl was to be kept in the dark the whole time until her dad made the pronouncement that a marriage was soon coming. There was more to what they said that weekend which seemed bizarre and, well, sick.

Matthew Chapman acted so arrogantly that he was difficult to hear even when he was saying something plain like, "the sky is blue." He and Lindvall came over to eat lunch with me and my husband one day at the conference. Even in Lindvall's face, Chapman acted superior to his co-presenter in a way that was embarrassing to observe. Lindvall, for his part, acted self-effacing, humble and kind. But his kids were surly as all get out, and they were the ones running the sales table.

We wrote-off Lindvall and Chapman as "preachers" to be stayed away from, even though they were popular with many in our former religious community.