Has Any One Else Been a Witness for an Annulment (RCC)?

[Prek teach]

My BF has divorced her husband in secular court and is now asking for an annulment from the Church. I agreed to be a witness for her since she's been my friend for 26 years, I firmly uphold her decision to divorce, etc. Today I received the 68 question witness form and all I can say is wow...just wow. Thank goodness I have 30 days to type my responses, since many of my answers will be in essay form. Then I have to take my answers to my parish priest, minister, rabbi or Notary Public and have them witnessed before sending them on to "The Tribunal". I cannot believe the info needed.

Personal/Family Background

Courtship

Engagement

Marriage

Common Life in Marriage

Breakdown of the Marriage

Pemanency/Sacramentality

I have to answer questions regarding the satisfaction of their sex life during marriage, factors in their upbringing that caused the end of their marriage, their personality traits, hesitations before marriage, issues that may have occurred during the honeymoon, any abuses that occurred during the marriage, a description of their courtship, signs of marital affection, whether or not they assumed and fufilled the duties and responsibilities of married life, issues with same sex attraction and pornography, and difficulties arising from religious differences...just to name a few. All I can say is that I am blown away by the personal questions the Church must have answered. Has anyone else done this?

[Crackedeggs]

Needing to have it done is why I never got an annulment, (let alone a real divorce) because there is also an exorbinant fee associated with it, as well as having to KNOW people that were that deeply involved. My parents are dead. My friends in life have been fairly segmented: those who knew me in one part, didn't know me in the next and vice versa. There is no one to speak for me, so that makes me an outcast in the church of my Daughter... which granted, is only her church because her father and grandparents made it happen.

[NurseNell]

Needing to have it done is why I never got an annulment, (let alone a real divorce) because there is also an exorbinant fee associated with it, as well as having to KNOW people that were that deeply involved. My parents are dead. My friends in life have been fairly segmented: those who knew me in one part, didn't know me in the next and vice versa. There is no one to speak for me, so that makes me an outcast in the church of my Daughter... which granted, is only her church because her father and grandparents made it happen.

I have a Church annulment. It's a myth that it is very costly to go through the process. My fees totaled $350. And had I not been able to afford the fee I could have applied for a hardship and paid less, or paid nothing.

PreKteach: just answer to the best of your ability. If you don't have knowledge about a particular question say that.

[Kitchen Princess]

I almost converted to RCC (from Southern Baptist) and I went through the annulment process right up until I had to ask witnesses to answer questions on my behalf. No one I can think of would be able to answer any of those questions for me. I couldn't go through with it, because I didn't want to involve anyone else, least of which my ex, who was nowhere near Catholic. HOWEVER, it was incredibly therapeutic for me to answer all those personal questions. I still have the packet somewhere.

You have to answer to the best of your ability. That means if you don't know the answer, you say so. They're just looking for info to justify the fact that the couple never actually partook of the sacrament because they weren't committed to it in the first place.

Look up the reasons that an annulment could be granted and compare them to what you know about the couple, and write your answers slanting towards those reasons. I'm not saying lie...I'm saying include anything that helps and leave out anything that doesn't.

She must be a very good friend to ask you to do that.

[fundiefan]

Never even knew an annulment required witnesses.

If the people who were married decide the marriage didn't exist, that's their thing. Who needs to witness it?

[emmiedahl]

What you want to focus on are issues from before the marriage that would make it a bad marriage from the start. Deception is a big one. Also to be noted are pressures to get married that might have led to a marriage based on things other than love and commitment.

My husband's annulment with his first wife was denied because she denied everything. It sucks because D is still so committed to the RC church. We were given a special dispensation and had our marriage blessed in the church, but it really bothered him.

[Crackedeggs]

I have a Church annulment. It's a myth that it is very costly to go through the process. My fees totaled $350. And had I not been able to afford the fee I could have applied for a hardship and paid less, or paid nothing.

PreKteach: just answer to the best of your ability. If you don't have knowledge about a particular question say that.

Where? In Philadelphia it was nearly $1000.

[Prek teach]

Creepiest question ever F7: "To your knowledge, was their sexual relationship satisfactory or was it a source of difficulty? If unsatisfactory, please explain." Seriously? The RCC is not asking THEM about their sexual relationship, but their friends/family? That is all sorts of eeeewww to me. After reading this questionnaire I'm so glad I chose to marry outside the church. No worries crackedeggs I'm an outcast too in the church of my family. My divorce will be final in the next 3 months or so. Luckily for me, I suppose, I chose a secular wedding vs a church wedding. I don't need anyone to speak for me, but if you need someone to speak for you..I would be willing.

[Crackedeggs]

Creepiest question ever F7: "To your knowledge, was their sexual relationship satisfactory or was it a source of difficulty? If unsatisfactory, please explain." Seriously? The RCC is not asking THEM about their sexual relationship, but their friends/family? That is all sorts of eeeewww to me. After reading this questionnaire I'm so glad I chose to marry outside the church. No worries crackedeggs I'm an outcast too in the church of my family. My divorce will be final in the next 3 months or so. Luckily for me, I suppose, I chose a secular wedding vs a church wedding. I don't need anyone to speak for me, but if you need someone to speak for you..I would be willing.

That is really nice of you!

Ya know, if I ever do it, it will be for her, not for me.. and I don't know that psuedohubby will want to join that church, he's a dyed in the wool small town Methodist. In terms of doing it for me... when she was little, and her father insisted she go to that school, and I did all the religious requirement crap of taking her to church because he wouldn't, and I felt like dirt every day ( that was my second marriage.. I'm a repeat offender ; ) that I sat in those pews, I would have gladly had someone speak for me who really hadn't known me in those days. ( that was part of the twisted path that " wifely submission" teachings led me on..) but I'd just as soon become episcopalian or Lutheran, same beauty in service, less paperwork, LOL!

[NurseNell]

Where? In Philadelphia it was nearly $1000.

Diocese of Superior, WI. In any diocese you can ask for a reduction in fee if you truly cannot afford the fee.

[emmiedahl]

My husband had to pay $1000. He was working class and paying over half his income in alimony at the time, with physical custody of his 4 children. The ex refused to fill out her portion, so the annulment was denied and his only options were to go fight it in Rome or just accept that he will always be married to her in the Catholic Church.

[Hane]

Back in 1980, I paid $200 in the Archdiocese of Hartford--an optional fee I paid AFTER the annulment was granted. A couple of years later, the fee suggested to Ex-Mr.-Hane#2 was $400, though I don't think he ever bothered paying it after his annulment was granted.

In those days, I was deeply invested in the Church. I got my annulment shortly after my divorce, and wasn't even dating anyone at the time, because I someday hoped to remarry in the church. (Nowadays, I wouldn't've bothered.)

[NurseNell]

Back in 1980, I paid $200 in the Archdiocese of Hartford--an optional fee I paid AFTER the annulment was granted. A couple of years later, the fee suggested to Ex-Mr.-Hane#2 was $400, though I don't think he ever bothered paying it after his annulment was granted.

In those days, I was deeply invested in the Church. I got my annulment shortly after my divorce, and wasn't even dating anyone at the time, because I someday hoped to remarry in the church. (Nowadays, I wouldn't've bothered.)

Yes, my fee was also paid after the annulment was granted. I wasn't dating and had no plans to remarry. I went through the process because I thought it was the honest thing to do. I'm still involved in the Church, and don't date or plan to remarry.

[NurseNell]

My husband had to pay $1000. He was working class and paying over half his income in alimony at the time, with physical custody of his 4 children. The ex refused to fill out her portion, so the annulment was denied and his only options were to go fight it in Rome or just accept that he will always be married to her in the Catholic Church.

My former husband didn't fill out his portion either, that happens fairly often. Did he ask about a reduction in fee? Was it on a sliding scale? That's too bad that he wasn't able to pursue the annulment because it sounds like it was important to him.

[Crackedeggs]

Yes, my fee was also paid after the annulment was granted. I wasn't dating and had no plans to remarry. I went through the process because I thought it was the honest thing to do. I'm still involved in the Church, and don't date or plan to remarry.

Wow, you guys got to pay AFTER? They won't even start it till you pay in Philly.

[desertvixen]

Also, in the military archdiocese, they will not reduce the fee. I was quoted $450 but just the whole attitude of it turned me off, because it was totally a check-the-block manuever.

[NurseNell]

Wow, you guys got to pay AFTER? They won't even start it till you pay in Philly.

I wonder why the process isn't uniform, no matter what diocese you're in.

[punkette]

I was asked by a friend to write a letter, after I saw what they wanted I told her to write it and I would sign it. I found out some interesting stuff that way, lol.

[mirele]

One of my friends, oldest of five kids, was exceedingly pissed off about his father applying for (and receiving) an annulment. To him it was f*cking b*llsh*t. His parents had been married 25 years and had five kids, and his father was able to bamboozle an ecclesiastical tribunal into saying there wasn't a valid marriage to start out with? Needless to say, when my friend got married, it was a real shindig, starting at the Justice of the Peace and then going to a big blowout of a party. No Catholic church involved at all. (His father was also not invited, either.)

[ilovetchotchkes]

Even though I am not Catholic any more, I know someone "on the inside" so to speak.

My mom has helped a LOT of people get annulments.

Basically they want to prove that the marriage should never have taken place, essentially an annulment is the church declaring that "the marriage was never valid" in the first place, so basically there was no marriage...

So anything you can prove that BEFORE they were married were doubts, or misgivings and such, will help your friend tremendously. Something like "she expressed misgivings to me about the wedding multiple times' blah blah blah.

Now, my mom worked in a fairly liberal diocese when she did this (she's in a totally different job in a totally different diocese).

I think its BS. And I'm going to have to help a friend out with hers. I'm one of her closest friends. Hopefully the church will take my "testimony" ~ I'm no longer Catholic and like, NONE of her friends are.

[Kitchen Princess]

Creepiest question ever F7: "To your knowledge, was their sexual relationship satisfactory or was it a source of difficulty? If unsatisfactory, please explain." Seriously? The RCC is not asking THEM about their sexual relationship, but their friends/family? That is all sorts of eeeewww to me. After reading this questionnaire I'm so glad I chose to marry outside the church. No worries crackedeggs I'm an outcast too in the church of my family. My divorce will be final in the next 3 months or so. Luckily for me, I suppose, I chose a secular wedding vs a church wedding. I don't need anyone to speak for me, but if you need someone to speak for you..I would be willing.

No, they ask the petitioner that question, too, and the ex, whether they want to participate or not. Are you sure you got the witnesses questions?

[Kitchen Princess]

One of my friends, oldest of five kids, was exceedingly pissed off about his father applying for (and receiving) an annulment. To him it was f*cking b*llsh*t. His parents had been married 25 years and had five kids, and his father was able to bamboozle an ecclesiastical tribunal into saying there wasn't a valid marriage to start out with? Needless to say, when my friend got married, it was a real shindig, starting at the Justice of the Peace and then going to a big blowout of a party. No Catholic church involved at all. (His father was also not invited, either.)

It's a common misconception that it makes the kids illegitimate. After I learned about annulment in the context of the doctrines, I didn't find any lack of logic in it all...EXCEPT the part about there being a god and all. ;) It has to do with the condition of your heart, and your intent when you married, and after the wedding, if you cheat or whatever, it points to you not being true from the beginning (or if you're the victim of a cheater, you're off the hook). That's putting all the politics of any particular diocese aside.

The classes and the annulment process are what sealed up my atheism for good.

[mirele]

It's a common misconception that it makes the kids illegitimate. After I learned about annulment in the context of the doctrines, I didn't find any lack of logic in it all...EXCEPT the part about there being a god and all. ;) It has to do with the condition of your heart, and your intent when you married, and after the wedding, if you cheat or whatever, it points to you not being true from the beginning (or if you're the victim of a cheater, you're off the hook). That's putting all the politics of any particular diocese aside.

The classes and the annulment process are what sealed up my atheism for good.

Oh, they knew they weren't bastards according to the church. They just thought it was hokey bullshit that after a quarter century and five kids, the marriage was invalid from the gitgo. Consequently, none of the kids (and their mother) were practicing Catholics anymore.

[MonkeyMomma]

Prek teach, I have been a witness for my mother's annulment. If you have any questions about the process or writing a statement, feel free to PM me.

[Cran]

I hold a master in catholic theology, and while the european laws are different, church law is just the same bulls... uh, well, it is the same worldwide, so if I can assist in any way, I'd be glad to.

It requires that the marriage is not valid from the start, so for example if one of the partners had no intent from the start to be faithful "till death doth us part", this could be a reason, as the character of the sacrament of marriage depends on its being without deadline.

Or getting married for a specific purpose, for example, having many children. If one partner wasn't able to sire/conceive children and lied to the partner about it, also a valid reason (can also be money, if money was the main reason for the marriage and the partner wasn't rich at all and lied about it etc.).

If the marriage was never consumated, it is also invalid, so that's one reason why they are asking witnesses about the sex life, too, as the wife could have complained about lack of intercourse to her friend.

So if you want to tailor your answers to help your friend, these things and many more could be taken into consideration.