For The Bible Tells Me So

[QAF_Rocks]

Um, it is relevant. The film isn't for for atheists who think the Bible is bs and all religion is bs. You aren't the audience here. The point was to show Christians who think homosexuality is wrong that it's not against God. It's for them, not people like you who already know there's nothing wrong with it. To most Christians, the Bible's say is important. This film was giving a different, Christian perspective of the problems and issues of the anti-gay perspective. One that says it's not wrong to be gay and Christian.

I understand. I know I'm not the target audience. I was just saying that's why the film annoyed me. I'm glad that people are getting over their homophobia whatever way they can, but the notion that there's some "right" way to interpret the Bible irks me. I don't think either way of interpreting the Bible is wrong. You can read into the Bible whatever you want to read into it. IMO, the anti-gay side is just as "right" as the pro-gay side. But of course I'm happy whenever people make strides towards equality. I just wish it didn't have to come simply because they decided the Bible wasn't anti-gay, because that means they still see the Bible as a moral authority. They could just as easily switch back to deciding that the Bible condemns gay people after all.

[FakePigtails]

I understand. I know I'm not the target audience. I was just saying that's why the film annoyed me. I'm glad that people are getting over their homophobia whatever way they can, but the notion that there's some "right" way to interpret the Bible irks me. I don't think either way of interpreting the Bible is wrong. You can read into the Bible whatever you want to read into it. IMO, the anti-gay side is just as "right" as the pro-gay side. But of course I'm happy whenever people make strides towards equality. I just wish it didn't have to come simply because they decided the Bible wasn't anti-gay, because that means they still see the Bible as a moral authority. They could just as easily switch back to deciding that the Bible condemns gay people after all.

I think a good number of those Christians who've been taught the anti-gay interpretations 1) don't have any idea that there is or could even be an alternative context because it requires specific historical knowledge and 2) have gotten to know gay people (you know the typical thinking badly of gay people until they get to know one and they *light blub moment* realize they're "normal") are almost completely okay with them but still have that sticking point of being taught their whole lives that the lifestyle is sinful. It's a weird place to be belief-wise but "it is what it is". I would venture to say that they want everything to be OK by their religion but have no clue that's possible, and again discounting one thing (especially something that's unfortunately been considered so important by clergy) risks the rest falling apart.

[Beeks]

Hey Beeks, have you seen Trembling Before G-d? I haven't seen For The Bible Tells Me So, but I've heard that Trembling Before G-d is kind of a like a Jewish version of it and is a really interesting documentary nonetheless.

Also, I agree that Gene Robinson is awesome.

Ohhh no, I will look that up, thanks! I did think it was sort of lame that they just had a token reform rabbi in For The Bible Tells Me So, so it would be interesting to see a whole film from the Jewish perspective. Thanks!

[dairyfreelife]

I understand. I know I'm not the target audience. I was just saying that's why the film annoyed me. I'm glad that people are getting over their homophobia whatever way they can, but the notion that there's some "right" way to interpret the Bible irks me. I don't think either way of interpreting the Bible is wrong. You can read into the Bible whatever you want to read into it. IMO, the anti-gay side is just as "right" as the pro-gay side. But of course I'm happy whenever people make strides towards equality. I just wish it didn't have to come simply because they decided the Bible wasn't anti-gay, because that means they still see the Bible as a moral authority. They could just as easily switch back to deciding that the Bible condemns gay people after all.

The problem is that the majority of Christians believe the Bible does condemn homosexuality. This film seemed, to me at least, to be explaining that there are other ways to interpret it. I didn't mean to come across as saying you are completely wrong, but the Bible was relevant for this documentary because it's about Christians and for Christians. Any book can be interpreted a thousand different ways, but so many churches use the revised texts of the Bible to condemn equality of gays. Since pastors are often more "educated" on the Bible, the congregation listens without going through the text themselves. Anything can be justified using the Bible's passages.

[emmiedahl]

My cousin has written quite a bit about GLBTQ issues in the Jewish community. I wish they had interviewed her. She is a lesbian with children and she has a lot of thoughtful thoughts on Judaism and gays. In fact, I think she is considered an expert on the topic. She is quoted in many books and I think her partner wrote a few books as well.

It's weird when I see her name in feminist journals and such. She is taken very seriously, but people would take her even more seriously if they knew how she had to fight to get to her current place and what a gentle and kind person she is.

I think it is important to point out alternative viewpoints in the Bible. Many people have a relationship with God that they cannot simply put aside. They need to know that they do not have to choose between their religious beliefs and tolerance.

eta: my cousin is a Rabbi and has a few doctorates, etc. I just realized I had not mentioned that she has good reason to be considered an authority on the subject.

[dairyfreelife]

I think a good number of those Christians who've been taught the anti-gay interpretations 1) don't have any idea that there is or could even be an alternative context because it requires specific historical knowledge and 2) have gotten to know gay people (you know the typical thinking badly of gay people until they get to know one and they *light blub moment* realize they're "normal") are almost completely okay with them but still have that sticking point of being taught their whole lives that the lifestyle is sinful. It's a weird place to be belief-wise but "it is what it is". I would venture to say that they want everything to be OK by their religion but have no clue that's possible, and again discounting one thing (especially something that's unfortunately been considered so important by clergy) risks the rest falling apart.

Missed this post when I posted mine so I QFT.

[QAF_Rocks]

The problem is that the majority of Christians believe the Bible does condemn homosexuality. This film seemed, to me at least, to be explaining that there are other ways to interpret it. I didn't mean to come across as saying you are completely wrong, but the Bible was relevant for this documentary because it's about Christians and for Christians. Any book can be interpreted a thousand different ways, but so many churches use the revised texts of the Bible to condemn equality of gays. Since pastors are often more "educated" on the Bible, the congregation listens without going through the text themselves. Anything can be justified using the Bible's passages.

I don't think we actually disagree about anything. I know that's what the majority of Christians believe, or at least evangelical Christians. So I understand that they have a need to try to prove that the Bible isn't anti-gay. But I'm a little confused because this is 2011. Are they really not aware that there are other ways to interpret the Bible? I was under the impression that most Christians with those beliefs know perfectly well that biblical verses can be interpreted as not being anti-gay, but that they feel people who buy into that have been deceived. I don't know if those people would even be willing to watch For the Bible Tells Me So, and if they were, if they would consider the arguments to be valid. This documentary seems like it would appeal more to people who are on the fence, or those who already want to accept homosexuality and are just looking for a religious authority to give them an excuse.

Either way, I find it problematic because it still means that they are stuck on the Bible being the ultimate authority. They didn't change their mind (ostensibly) because they realized gay people were perfectly normal and natural and didn't deserve to be ostracized and persecuted. They didn't realize that homosexuality was morally acceptable on their own. They only realized that because they managed to interpret their scriptures that way, but the scriptures are still seen as the source of their morality. I find that thought process frightening because it doesn't leave room for people to come to moral realizations on their own, and it doesn't condemn people who are doing the same thing from the other side. Religious acceptance is the converse of religious bigotry, and both are equally possible outcomes when you look to the Bible to excuse or support your personal opinions.

[Rachel333]

I can't remember if I saw this one or one like it, but I'll be checking it out.

Trembling Before G-d is on hulu for free, last I checked.

[emmiedahl]

QAF Rocks, I think a lot of Christians are NOT aware that there are alternative interpretations of the Bible. You hear a lot of "CLEARLY this and OBVIOUSLY that". I have seen Christians shocked that Jews have different interpretations, they assume that because Jesus was a Jew, Christian thinking must be identical to Jewish thinking.

Dr. Laura said something nasty about gays and a lesbian friend was asking me how I can belong to a religion that hates so much. I explained the Reform Jewish belief on homosexuality and she was like, ohhhh. Also, I think that gays within the Christian community deserve to hear that they are not necessarily an abomination before God. It needs to be put out there.

[FakePigtails]

QAF I would have felt the same about how can people not know about alternative explanations until I heard about and then met some of the families of my college friends. It's amazing what bubbles people can live in between being in small sheltered towns where perceptions are frighteningly similar to those from the 1950s and never having been curious about the world around them enough to take steps to learn about what else is out there (see my post in the All-American Muslim thread) and make their own opinions.

It really, truly doesn't occur to them that there are different interpretations of the world. They've never been in an environment where that type of intellectual curiosity is the norm or encouraged at all and none of their beliefs have ever been challenged in any way. They've never had reason to question what they know.

I don't mean to defend them, only to point out how that kind of mentality happens. Again, I would have felt the same as you 10 years ago. The way things are with that still shocks me to be honest.

[QAF_Rocks]

QAF Rocks, I think a lot of Christians are NOT aware that there are alternative interpretations of the Bible. You hear a lot of "CLEARLY this and OBVIOUSLY that". I have seen Christians shocked that Jews have different interpretations, they assume that because Jesus was a Jew, Christian thinking must be identical to Jewish thinking.

and

QAF I would have felt the same about how can people not know about alternative explanations until I heard about and then met some of the families of my college friends. It's amazing what bubbles people can live in between being in small sheltered towns where perceptions are frighteningly similar to those from the 1950s and never having been curious about the world around them enough to take steps to learn about what else is out there (see my post in the All-American Muslim thread) and make their own opinions.

It really, truly doesn't occur to them that there are different interpretations of the world. They've never been in an environment where that type of intellectual curiosity is the norm or encouraged at all and none of their beliefs have ever been challenged in any way. They've never had reason to question what they know.

I don't mean to defend them, only to point out how that kind of mentality happens. Again, I would have felt the same as you 10 years ago. The way things are with that still shocks me to be honest.

You're both right. I'm probably out of the loop because not only do I live in a liberal metropolitan area, I don't have any personal experience with evangelicals. I might debate with them online, but when we discuss social issues, those particular Christians seem very aware that there are alternate views. They just think those alternate views are flat out wrong.

I never really considered that some small-town evangelicals might not have been exposed to other ways of thinking. In some areas, especially in the Bible Belt, it seems like the group-think is astounding. You're raised in a certain church, sent to Christian school, go to Christian college, marry a fellow Christian, etc. In that environment, it's not surprising that they might be totally ignorant about not only gay people, but also atheists, Jews, or anyone else outside their social circle.

I think the good-hearted Christians who have made gay friends and don't want to discriminate against them will probably find a documentary like For the Bible Tells Me So a reason to become accepting. In the end, I think that's what matters most, even if it strikes me that they are doing the right thing for the wrong reason.