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Maxwell 57: Planning Mary's Wedding


Coconut Flan

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Those engagement shots of Mary's! My word, we're a long way from the days of a no-touch courtship. Fiancé's hand is clasped highly immodestly in her lap - Steve must be dying multiple times over. 

And as much glee as that gives me, it also makes me that much angrier and sadder for the girls. All that goddamn control and power over their lives, all that indoctrination, and for what? They might as well have had happier lives from the get-go, especially Sarah. Clearly none of Steve's coercion and brainwashing stuck - or he was blowing smoke up his followers' asses for years, and neither is a good look for the brand. Good thing they're retired. 

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Would having a bazillionty kids complicate their mission plans?  

What is ABC's stance on birth control or natural family planning?  Might these two decide to hold off having kids for just a little bit?  

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5 hours ago, kpmom said:

I think they said they would enter the mission field after 3 years of marriage. I wonder where they’ll live until then?

Maybe they’ll continue at ABC as graduate students?

Hopefully those three years will be spent preparing for missions work, if that's what they are set on doing. Both by working and saving up, and other sorts of preparation.

I think missionaries who make a difference aren't preaching or building churches, they are working to fill needs, supporting and building up the community they work in - and ideally that's a community they become a part of. Sharing their faith by example is fine. Preaching at people while ignoring their needs does no good, IMO. It's one of the reasons I think it's ridiculous when fundies want to go be missionaries to somewhere like Hungary (like that one Rod kid) or when they go to scary Central America but stay cloistered as much as possible in a little enclave of expats. 

The missionary couple I know studied the language and culture (along with lots of social work type classes) before going into missions after graduating college and after a decade or more (and a graduate degree for the husband) still attend seminars and classes to continue to learn how best to help the people they serve - they've founded a new group I think working to assist youth transitioning out of essentially foster group homes into college or work. They've lived there for all this time, the husband has become a citizen, their son (just one kid) was born there and is a citizen and attends the same local school as their neighbors. They aren't preaching at people, but they do work with local churches to help them help youth in need. They know that helping set up local resources long term will make more difference than what they can do alone - and churches are often full of people willing to help people out and are able to host programs offering assistance. They help the youth they work for however they need - help them prepare for a job interview, help them with college application paperwork and government red tape, often let them crash in their small apartment while they help them find a place of their own, and if they want they will help them find a church they feel comfortable and welcomed in. But church attendance isn't a requirement, just an option.

I'm sure Steve doesn't care much if people have a roof to sleep under or a job, or if they are hungry, he's more concerned about where they will go when they die. 

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13 hours ago, Howl said:

Would having a bazillionty kids complicate their mission plans?  

What is ABC's stance on birth control or natural family planning?  Might these two decide to hold off having kids for just a little bit?  

This is certainly something that's occured to me. Mary is still young that she can probably have a big family like the rest of the Maxwells (Christopher and Anna Marie, Steve and Teri, Nathan and Melanie, etc.). It probably has more to do with her beliefs and his beliefs than the school's beliefs. 

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I think Mary will have a baby soon. Even if she would plan to have a little family, I think a young couple in their circle must show their fertility the sooner the better. 

She crearly enjoyed being an aunt and she is happy with her boyfriend. They have had a real relationship (not an online one like other fundies). While waiting some time before motherhood is a good idea, I don't see that a honeymoon baby would be a disaster in their case.

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All of the Max boys didn’t have a honeymoon baby. They weren’t like the Mortons. Let’s hope she doesn’t have a baby until after she graduates in may of 2024.

Edited by JermajestyDuggar
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5 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

It probably has more to do with her beliefs and his beliefs than the school's beliefs. 

Yes and no. 

Just reading though the coursework for the Biblical Counseling Degree, Women's Ministries Concentration, Equipping Women to Serve Women, ABC is hard-core, Bible based fundamentalist. 

I'll assume that ABC is patriarchal male headship and have some stance on birth control and family planning.  

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

All of the Max boys didn’t have a honeymoon baby. They weren’t like the Mortons. Let’s hope she doesn’t have a baby until after she graduates in may of 2024.

Does the school have a policy on married pregnant students?  With all the “ring by spring” marriages, there must be some pregnancies while still a student.  
Do they have a rule about returning to class while pregnant, or after having a baby, like that 2 month rule after getting married?

 

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4 hours ago, kpmom said:

Does the school have a policy on married pregnant students?  With all the “ring by spring” marriages, there must be some pregnancies while still a student.  
Do they have a rule about returning to class while pregnant, or after having a baby, like that 2 month rule after getting married?

 

Their student handbook has the following on "couples."

 

219862952_CouplesatABC.thumb.png.03af007e9d966051608799c0ea851149.png

 

OTOH, the only guidance for married students deals with general behavior & tenant responsibilities.

 

 

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I'm guessing the school is viewed as in loco parentis for unmarried students by most of the parents of their students.  Once married, adult status is finally achieved so they can be together and pregnancy would be their own decision. 

Personally I hope they wait until after they've been on the mission field at least a year if mission work stays their intent.

Edited by Coconut Flan
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I was surprised to see explanations of FERPA & Title IX in the student handbook - does ABC receive federal funding or entitlements of some kind? Looked at their website but didn't see any statement.

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It’s just nuts to me that an institution educating legal adults can make these kind of interferences in the decisions of someone’s personal life. You have to meet with the dean before you get engaged??? Get permission before hosting a party?? Wtf???

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8 hours ago, Howl said:

Yes and no. 

Just reading though the coursework for the Biblical Counseling Degree, Women's Ministries Concentration, Equipping Women to Serve Women, ABC is hard-core, Bible based fundamentalist. 

I'll assume that ABC is patriarchal male headship and have some stance on birth control and family planning.  

I am aware of rules at ABC although it turns out they may be stricter than I thought. But there are loopholes and ways around the rules for people who don't believe in them. I think Mary and Samuel could find freedom if they aren't hampered by their families, upbringings, etc. 

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39 minutes ago, Johannah said:

It’s just nuts to me that an institution educating legal adults can make these kind of interferences in the decisions of someone’s personal life. You have to meet with the dean before you get engaged??? Get permission before hosting a party?? Wtf???

It really makes me wonder how much is actually enforced. I’ve said this on other threads. People who have gone to strict Bible colleges have said not all of the rules are strictly enforced. It really depends on the college. So I wonder if some of these more minor rules are actually enforced. 

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5 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

heir student handbook has the following

"Divorced persons will not be permitted to date other ABC students while they are students at Appalachian Bible College"  

Also, they consider that marriage is until death of one of the spouses. 

Although we're happy that the Maxhell daughters escaped to college and are living much, much happier lives, it's useful to remember how restrictively fundamentalist this institution is. 

That said, they have a very long section in the student handbook that addresses the meaning of consent, stalking and sexual assault and they do, at the very end in the resource section, list the local Women's Resource Center that provides assistance for victims of sexual assault. 

 

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9 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

I was surprised to see explanations of FERPA & Title IX in the student handbook - does ABC receive federal funding or entitlements of some kind? Looked at their website but didn't see any statement.

I noticed that they offer accredited degrees. So these may be required for accreditation.

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19 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Their student handbook has the following on "couples."

 

219862952_CouplesatABC.thumb.png.03af007e9d966051608799c0ea851149.png

 

OTOH, the only guidance for married students deals with general behavior & tenant responsibilities.

 

 

"Socializing as couples off campus without a third party is not allowed..."  She lives off campus with her sister.  Oh the shenanigans I got into with one of my sisters when I was young.  Those were the days.  

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I also wonder how older students are treated when it comes to enforcing rules. Anna is around 30. I bet it must feel weird to reprimand a 30 year old woman when you are used to correcting 18 year old immature fundie girls. I can imagine not enforcing too many rules when it comes to Anna. 

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I knew a guy when I was in college who went to a strict bible school. He used to come hang out in our dorm at our college and based on what he did there I would say rules were not strictly enforced for him when he was off campus. He told me that as long as he was discreet he wouldn’t have problems as the administration wasn’t looking for rule breakers- just dealing with obvious violations. 

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22 minutes ago, ElizaB said:

I knew a guy when I was in college who went to a strict bible school. He used to come hang out in our dorm at our college and based on what he did there I would say rules were not strictly enforced for him when he was off campus. He told me that as long as he was discreet he wouldn’t have problems as the administration wasn’t looking for rule breakers- just dealing with obvious violations. 

Judging by those engagement pictures, Mary's third party chaperone looked the other way.  

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10 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I also wonder how older students are treated when it comes to enforcing rules. Anna is around 30. I bet it must feel weird to reprimand a 30 year old woman when you are used to correcting 18 year old immature fundie girls. I can imagine not enforcing too many rules when it comes to Anna. 

I imagine they would reprimand an older student quite seriously, with added guilt of how she should be functioning as an example, and therefore be flawless, and not need this kind of intervention at all. They could be 'so disappointed' over the smallest violation.

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13 minutes ago, Pammy said:

I imagine they would reprimand an older student quite seriously, with added guilt of how she should be functioning as an example, and therefore be flawless, and not need this kind of intervention at all. They could be 'so disappointed' over the smallest violation.

My guess is that these schools care most about their image. And would only enforce rules that give them a bad image. I honestly can’t imagine Anna or Mary doing something to hurt their image. I highly doubt they ever get in trouble. 

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On 4/6/2023 at 5:11 PM, Johannah said:

It’s just nuts to me that an institution educating legal adults can make these kind of interferences in the decisions of someone’s personal life. You have to meet with the dean before you get engaged??? Get permission before hosting a party?? Wtf???

Because they're not like everyone else.  For many, this is the first they they are away from their parents and other chaperones.  They may be adults in body, but they're not in mind or maturity level.  What they're doing at college is what we did in middle school and high school.  My first concert with friends was at 12 years old.  The first time I rode a city bus to go shopping with my friends was at 12.  When we were younger than that, we had free rein playing outside in the neighborhood with our friends without anyone hovering over us.  We rode our bikes everywhere, even going to get a bite to eat with our friends.   Many of these kids were so sheltered that they are learning now what we learned years before them.  And the parents are paying good money for someone to keep an eye on them.  The mission trips are even chaperoned.  They still need a babysitter because some of them did not do the slow, over the years transition into adulthood that the rest of the world does with their kids.  

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On 4/6/2023 at 5:53 PM, Howl said:

"Divorced persons will not be permitted to date other ABC students while they are students at Appalachian Bible College"  

Also, they consider that marriage is until death of one of the spouses.

I think this is a fairly common belief among fundies. I actually know of a woman who had left her husband decades earlier (her life was literally in danger because of his rage and violence) but felt that the marriage "counted" as long as the man was alive. She waited until he was dead and remarried in her 80s.

On 4/6/2023 at 5:11 PM, Johannah said:

It’s just nuts to me that an institution educating legal adults can make these kind of interferences in the decisions of someone’s personal life. You have to meet with the dean before you get engaged??? Get permission before hosting a party?? Wtf???

Also, as someone else alluded to, the college likely cares VERY MUCH about not getting negative press. You have an unwed pregnancy on campus? That looks bad to your church constituency. You have an accusation of date r*pe or some other type of intimate-partner violence? That looks bad to your church constituency and it's probably going to make the local news. Prevent couples from ever touching or being alone together and you've headed off all those possibilities.

On 4/5/2023 at 8:31 AM, kpmom said:

I think they said they would enter the mission field after 3 years of marriage. I wonder where they’ll live until then?

Maybe they’ll continue at ABC as graduate students?

That's possible. They'd also have to complete pre-field ministry (I think they used to call it deputation back in the day?) Basically attending candidate school through their mission agency and then traveling around to speak in churches and raise support. They wouldn't be able to leave for the field until their support is fully raised. That could take a few years. And some people who try to become missionaries don't make it, due to an inability to raise support or because of factors like health.

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6 hours ago, theologygeek said:

Because they're not like everyone else.  For many, this is the first they they are away from their parents and other chaperones.  They may be adults in body, but they're not in mind or maturity level.  What they're doing at college is what we did in middle school and high school.  My first concert with friends was at 12 years old.  The first time I rode a city bus to go shopping with my friends was at 12.  When we were younger than that, we had free rein playing outside in the neighborhood with our friends without anyone hovering over us.  We rode our bikes everywhere, even going to get a bite to eat with our friends.   Many of these kids were so sheltered that they are learning now what we learned years before them.  And the parents are paying good money for someone to keep an eye on them.  The mission trips are even chaperoned.  They still need a babysitter because some of them did not do the slow, over the years transition into adulthood that the rest of the world does with their kids.  

Yes, but this goes even further than that. If we even just make the comparison to teenage high school boarding school students, this is the equivalent of saying, you can’t sit next to a boy in class; and before you enter into a dating relationship (or, hell, even an engagement I guess, no legal age limit on getting engaged), you have to talk to the Dean (not even a guidance counselor, the academic Dean!, who has nothing to do with your personal life); and if you have divorced parents or you’ve had sex before you’re not allowed to date any students at this school. 
 

Beyond an infantilizing level of oversight and protection, it goes way beyond typical high school regulations of minors and veers bizarrely into serious infringement on personal life behavior and relationships that have nothing to do with school. I guess that’s the nature of belonging to a religious cult. You hand over control of every aspect of your life. It’s just so creepy to see it in writing as official policy at an educational institution. 

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