[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 31: Charged on 2 LaCounts

[Cults-r-us]

2 hours ago, Cam said:

I’d definitely do this.

Anna is addicted to the chaos. Truly.

No, Anna is addicted to the lifestyle, the baybeees, the Duggars (especially Meeshell) and probably the honeymoon periods between crises.

In comparing two other tragically doomed fundie couples: Kelly Brown and Bradrick!. Kelly's parents supported her in separation and divorce, so she had a place to go with her brood. Katie Morton and Alan Smith. Katie's family also rallied around her.

The point being there is life after terrible betrayal. Sometimes separation from people you love is the best solution.

[Sabine]

10 minutes ago, Cults-r-us said:

No, Anna is addicted to the lifestyle, the baybeees, the Duggars (especially Meeshell) and probably the honeymoon periods between crises.

In comparing two other tragically doomed fundie couples: Kelly Brown and Bradrick!. Kelly's parents supported her in separation and divorce, so she had a place to go with her brood. Katie Morton and Alan Smith. Katie's family also rallied around her.

The point being there is life after terrible betrayal. Sometimes separation from people you love is the best solution.

True but then Kelly was married of again, happy or not, does it matter? No idea bout Katie girl, but fact is once these women are divorced they have two options, marry again and stay in your parents good books, or leave the cult and go it your own way. 

[Drala]

I just listened to the Reddit guy's three part podcast on YT, and I recommend listening to it if you have the time and inclination.  He does the podcast with his wife, and it's based on a journal he kept as a teenager. The podcast is more focused on exposing the damage done by fundamentalism than on dishing dirt on Josh and the Duggars, although he talks about a personal betrayal by Josh in episode 3 that I found sobering and deeply revealing.  The podcast content came across as authentic, and the podcaster as vulnerable. I have a reasonably well functioning BS detector, and I think Justin is legit.  He also discusses being on the autism spectrum and its impact on growing up in the fundy culture.

The link is behind the spoiler.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Drala

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, HoneyBunny said:

There is a liberal Jesuit parish operating about 25 miles north of where I live.  It intermittently has and doesn’t have the blessing of the diocese (a different one than I’m in).  I have a feeling it’s on the outs right now. I might try there, but, frankly, am not sure if I’m committed enough after all this to even give it a try. 

 

I am sorry you are going through this.  If you are looking for a church community that has a lot of the Catholic ritual without the intolerance, you might check out the Episcopal church in your area.  I know several former Catholics (including myself) who have found a home among the Episcopalians.  Each congregation is different, but the national leadership of the Episcopal Church is rather to the left of center. 

Personally, I get annoyed when priests get political on the pulpit, regardless of their political stance.

 

[metheglyn]

6 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

Apologies if it's been posted already and I missed it up thread, but did you all see that Ellie (Ellie & Lily leg-humper blog) disabled comments on the Josh posts, and put her own blog to private?

She said "to protect the kids"- I bet you she got a lot of backlash for posting "pray for Josh" statements and no word about the victims. I know the bar is set real low with these people, but I want to hope that even for most leg-humpers, CSA charges have crossed the line. 

I follow both of Ellie's Duggar and Bates blogs and so actually saw the news about Josh there first since it popped up in my Feedly (I'd been working and missed the news itself), and I kept going back to read new comments to see how people were reacting. As a result of the lurking, I stronly suspect that you're right about the rationale for why the posts got comment-locked.

The comments on the first post started out pretty humper-ish, particularly before any real details had been released, and there were definitely a lot of "someone must have planted whatever it is" comments on both posts, but people who actually knew what was going on had started posting a lot of comments calling out the lack of requests for prayers for the victims while asking for them for Josh and the Duggars and also noting that to anyone who was actually informed, based on the initial hearing it really didn't sound like a politically motivated setup but more that something Josh actually did himself. Some additional posts read variations of "why aren't you talking about any of the positive news such as the Vuolos' new book," but other commenters kept replying that the positive news isn't really all that appropriate to focus on right now. The farther down the thread you read, and the longer the posts stayed commentable, the more the tone of the comments was shifting to point out that yeah, ignoring the victims while asking for prayers for the Duggars felt pretty inappropriate, even to general fans of the blog. 

So instead of even just amending the post to ask for prayers for the victims, as she was asked by a lot of commenters, Ellie locked the post while keeping just the request for prayers for Josh and the Duggar family up. Not the best optics, I don't think.

Edited May 12, 2021 by metheglyn
Accidentally quoted my post instead of editing it

[OrchidBlossom]

8 hours ago, Candycane36 said:

Anna could leave Josh, but the truth is that she doesn't want to do that. She is fully committed to staying with him, having more kids, and living her comfortable life as a sahm.  She is standing by him,  no matter what he does or did in the past. We all think Anna wants to leave him, but she has no intention of doing so. Unfortunately,There are many women like Anna out there, we just don't hear about them .  The cycle of abuse is very hard to break, because the honeymoon period is very rewarding and intoxicating for the victims. We have seen Josh humiliatie Anna on screen, when he made a comment about Anna swallowing a pill, he also made comments about his sister's incest was something they do in Arkansas. Josh has visited strip clubs, paid for sex workers , cheated, lied, hid money from Anna, indulged in inappropriate online sites, and now facing jail time. it this was not enough to convince Anna to leave, than nothing ever will. Anna does has choices, and she is choosing to stay with Josh.

Do you know what episode this was or anything? The swallowing joke I mean. I've never seen this but have seen reference to it.

Edited May 12, 2021 by OrchidBlossom
clarity

[QuiverFullofBooks]

26 minutes ago, OrchidBlossom said:

Do you know what episode this was or anything? The swallowing joke I mean. I've never seen this but have seen reference to it.

It was when she was pregnant (probably her first or second pregnancy) and she was taking prenatal vitamins that were big pills. Because she was nauseated anyway, she had trouble swallowing them. Josh said, “She’s usually a champion swallower.” Personally, I think that (perv though he is) he was probably being clueless about the double entendre. 

[Jackie3]

7 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I read the first AMA from this guy. It sounded like he was quoting from FJ. Anyone who uses “TLC gravy train” or other identifiers from snark pages rings false to me. ?

ETA: Also it’s gross for him to try and build his own platform off of this. No thanks. 

Really? I just spent 2 hours listening to the podcast. He and his wife came across as sincere, thoughtful, and very introspective about their life growing up in fundie families. Only about 30 minutes were spent on the guy's relationship with Josh Duggar, and it was very interesting.

The couple appear to be in their early 30s, and the husband identifies as autistic. Even if you dont' want to believe the Duggar stuff, it is a fascinating look into fundamentalism from a pretty intelligent couple. The podcast is also pretty funny. 

If this couple was setting this up to cash in on the Duggars, they've spent a huge amount of time and effort to do so, far more than they'll ever get back.

Basically, the husband reads from his journal as a boy of 15.  It is so funny to hear the boy's earnestness as he describes what he wants for a wife (and what he will bring to the table too).

Here's what he shares about the Duggars.

1. He first met them as a 15-year old, while they were "two houses away" from getting the compound they live in now.  That Duggar home was tiny, filthy and "smelled like a toddler's hand at the end of the day." Josh was about 17 at the time.

2. He said that there seemed to be little boys everywhere, desperate for attention.

3. He said that Jim Bob and Michelle had bought Josh the latest in tech stuff, so he had modern computers, video equipment etc.

4. Josh was caught looking at porn during his dad's campaign. He was probably discovered when one of the younger kids saw him look at porn and innocently ratted him out. He was made to confess in front of the church with a big emphasis on humiliating him as much as possible. He was sent to a church member's home to "dig out a pond"--apparently something that's done in Arkansas for homes with ponds that don't hold water. The sludge is dug out with a shovel. Josh was isolated in a building on the man's property (the man lived nearby and brought him meals but didn't talk to him) for weeks while he was digging. The church got reports on him each week. When Josh returned, he acted very cocky.

5. TLC was filming the Duggars at this time, but very little was said to them about Josh's porn use. Josh was brought back to the home for the filming. 

6. The people in their church did not know about the molestations.

7. It was a frequent occurrence for men in the church to get up to confess their sins. These sins were usually lust or losing their tempers. It was considered to be a status thing--it meant the devil thought you were so important that he tempted you. Wives and daughters were encouraged to forgive asap. The sins (beating up your wife, etc) were quickly forgiven by the other men in the church.

8. Jim Bob couldn't figure out why he had lost the election, and came up with the idea that it was because of Josh and his porn use.

9. Josh and the Holt girl had never seemed very interested in each other.

10. Jim Bob's beliefs are really, really far out there, far more conservative than even their own fundie families.

I can post more about what was said if there is any interest. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Jackie3

[Idlewild]

@Jackie3 thanks for the recap. If it’s true then the whole show was a charade from the beginning. All the kids being restricted from TV and internet, yet Josh was given a computer with apparently unchecked access?
It just shows that JB and M are the ultimate showmen- they put on this performance of a godly family but from the very start they knew it was a sham.

They lectured people on purity, had their daughters write a book on their lifestyle and laughed all the way to the bank.

The bit about the little boys wanting attention reminds me of the Rodrigues family - you see in their pictures the younger ones are over affectionate to non family people. It’s all so sick and so sad.

[baldricks_turnip]

38 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

@Jackie3 thanks for the recap. If it’s true then the whole show was a charade from the beginning. All the kids being restricted from TV and internet, yet Josh was given a computer with apparently unchecked access?
It just shows that JB and M are the ultimate showmen- they put on this performance of a godly family but from the very start they knew it was a sham.

I'm sure the level of control they spoke of was true for the girls. Can't have their girls seeing examples of women having jobs, restricting family size, talking back to men, etc.

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, Idlewild said:

All the kids being restricted from TV and internet, yet Josh was given a computer with apparently unchecked access?

I think that Josh was being punished for the molestations, but as Duggars couldn't say that, they said he was guilty of watching porn. I highly doubt Duggars had free internet at home and there weren't smartphones in 2004. They needed an alibi, because sending their son to be punished for weeks would cause people to gossip, and porn was enough for an explanation. Molestation would have been too hard to explain.

When Duggars said Kellers knew about Josh sins, I bet they were talking about watching "mainstream" porn, not molestations. 

[Green bean satan]

I think Ellie has gotten a lot of backlash over Josh’s most recent sex crimes, bc in 2015 she said that we shouldn’t believe all the stories about Josh and that a lot of people were out to get him. I’m sure this crashed over into her personal nashvillewife blog, which is all about car seats and organic food and staining furniture. I bet a lot of people don’t like it that she’s good friends with a childmolester. 

[Rachel333]

4 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

4. Josh was caught looking at porn during his dad's campaign. He was probably discovered when one of the younger kids saw him look at porn and innocently ratted him out. He was made to confess in front of the church with a big emphasis on humiliating him as much as possible. He was sent to a church member's home to "dig out a pond"--apparently something that's done in Arkansas for homes with ponds that don't hold water. The sludge is dug out with a shovel. Josh was isolated in a building on the man's property (the man lived nearby and brought him meals but didn't talk to him) for weeks while he was digging. The church got reports on him each week. When Josh returned, he acted very cocky.

5. TLC was filming the Duggars at this time, but very little was said to them about Josh's porn use. Josh was brought back to the home for the filming. 

6. The people in their church did not know about the molestations.

Okay, 4 and 6 make way more sense to me than the idea that he confessed to the whole church about the molestations and they all knew. Obviously some people outside the family knew about the molestations, but I've always thought it was a lot fewer than often assumed, definitely far from being the open secret in the community that I've seen claimed before.

[Cam]

9 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

@HoneyBunny

In my area, the evangelical and prosperity churches preach politics but it isn't right in any church that is tax exempted because of it being a house of worship. 

 

I agree 100%. It’s beyond frustrating that churches get away with it. Flaunt it even, as if they are untouchable.

[Cam]

Jackie3, I’d be interested in what else Justin has to say on his podcast.

Regarding Josh being targeted, it’s my understanding that the FBI was investigating a large group of people for CP crimes and weren’t specifically targeting anyone, just going after everyone. And Josh was in that mix. There was no agenda that they were out to get him.

Cults r us, no doubt Anna has other addictions, but chaos addiction can be included. It is a real thing. One website definition: “chaos addicts believe intensity equals being alive. The mind becomes wired for drama and the soul is starved of meaningful purpose.This type of life may produce heart-pounding excitement, but the absence of this addictive energy can bring about withdrawal, fear, and restlessness that is unbearable." 

It’d be difficult enough dealing with a husband’s issues like Josh’s. But throw in 7 kids, not having control of your own finances and the public spotlight on not just you but your entire in-law family, and, well, chaos on all fronts. 

Anna stays with Josh because she gets off on the drama. It is her crack. It is her normal.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Cam

[choralcrusader8613]

7 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

4. Josh was caught looking at porn during his dad's campaign.

Just a correction that he’s talking about Jim Holt, not his dad Jim Bob. Jim Holt was a family friend of the Duggars. 

[SassyPants]

Didn’t Oprah learn about the molestation (and then cancelled the Duggars’ appearance on her show) from a person who attended church with the Duggars? Wasn’t that the story? I think some of the church members did know.  I thought the 5th victim was a church member/babysitter/family friend. No speculation on exact identity just for clarification on this one point-

[Mrs. Kravitz]

8 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

4. Josh was caught looking at porn during his dad's campaign. He was probably discovered when one of the younger kids saw him look at porn and innocently ratted him out. He was made to confess in front of the church with a big emphasis on humiliating him as much as possible. He was sent to a church member's home to "dig out a pond"--apparently something that's done in Arkansas for homes with ponds that don't hold water. The sludge is dug out with a shovel. Josh was isolated in a building on the man's property (the man lived nearby and brought him meals but didn't talk to him) for weeks while he was digging. The church got reports on him each week. When Josh returned, he acted very cocky.

5. TLC was filming the Duggars at this time, but very little was said to them about Josh's porn use. Josh was brought back to the home for the filming. 

6. The people in their church did not know about the molestations.

7. It was a frequent occurrence for men in the church to get up to confess their sins. These sins were usually lust or losing their tempers. It was considered to be a status thing--it meant the devil thought you were so important that he tempted you. Wives and daughters were encouraged to forgive asap. The sins (beating up your wife, etc) were quickly forgiven by the other men in the church.

8. Jim Bob couldn't figure out why he had lost the election, and came up with the idea that it was because of Josh and his porn use.

9. Josh and the Holt girl had never seemed very interested in each other.

10. Jim Bob's beliefs are really, really far out there, far more conservative than even their own fundie families.

I can post more about what was said if there is any interest. 

From what I understood, it was Jim Holt's campaign, not Jim Bob's, Josh was working on when he was caught looking at porn. I think he had to confess to the molestations to the church elders only, but the porn had to be confessed to the whole congregation, and the reason why the punishment was so harsh was because the church elders knew it wasn't a first offense.

[Jess]

3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Didn’t Oprah learn about the molestation (and then cancelled the Duggars’ appearance on her show) from a person who attended church with the Duggars? Wasn’t that the story? I think some of the church members did know.  I thought the 5th victim was a church member/babysitter/family friend. No speculation on exact identity just for clarification on this one point-

It’s been years so I might be remembering it wrong, but I think the church member who told Oprah’s people knew because she borrowed a book that had a handwritten letter about it stuck in the pages. 

[SassyPants]

7 minutes ago, Jess said:

It’s been years so I might be remembering it wrong, but I think the church member who told Oprah’s people knew because she borrowed a book that had a handwritten letter about it stuck in the pages. 

Thanks, that’s right!

[Knight of Ni]

In the words of the late great George Carlin:

"Tax them. If holy people are so interested in politics, government, and public policy, let them pay the price of admission like everybody else."

[Jackie3]

9 hours ago, Idlewild said:

All the kids being restricted from TV and internet, yet Josh was given a computer with apparently unchecked access?

Actually, the husband tells a story about that. His own father (not Jim Bob) was examining Josh's computer equipment and asks "What kinda filter you got on this?" Apparently, Josh noticeably jumps. Of course there was a filter, but Josh (and most of these kids, apparently) found ways to get around his parents restrictions, particularly in the area of technology.

1 hour ago, Mrs. Kravitz said:

From what I understood, it was Jim Holt's campaign, not Jim Bob's, Josh was working on when he was caught looking at porn. I think he had to confess to the molestations to the church elders only, but the porn had to be confessed to the whole congregation, and the reason why the punishment was so harsh was because the church elders knew it wasn't a first offense.

Yes, I'm sure you are right, I just got it mixed up. I wrote it up late last night, sorry.

3 hours ago, Cam said:

Jackie3, I’d be interested in what else Justin has to say on his podcast.

 

So far, on episode 2, he is talking about his reaction to Josh's bond hearing. Justin seems like a gentle, intelligent guy, not very good at showing his emotions. When the initial charges were brought against Josh, he felt disgust but not a lot of other strong feelings. However, once he read about the bond hearing, he says his feelings changed.  He said he wanted to see someone "run Josh over with a car." 

4 hours ago, Cam said:

“chaos addicts believe intensity equals being alive. The mind becomes wired for drama and the soul is starved of meaningful purpose.This type of life may produce heart-pounding excitement, but the absence of this addictive energy can bring about withdrawal, fear, and restlessness that is unbearable." 

Anna doesn't look like she is experiencing "heart-pounding excitement." She looks miserable. It's far more likely that her training in submission and the covenant of marriage, plus her pregnancy and 6 kids, is causing her to stay. I doubt she's loving this and getting her fix.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Jackie3

[Jackie3]

14 hours ago, Galbin said:

 

- He said the lost boys were so desperate for attention that they ran to whomever came to the TTH and would be all over them.

There was lots more, but I found those bits the most interesting.

I always thought the lost boys were so interesting. Imagine having 6--yes 6!--boys in only five years. Of course they were desperate for attention. There's no way to raise six boys properly in a situation like that (with 9 older kids to boot)

[HoneyBunny]

7 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

I always thought the lost boys were so interesting. Imagine having 6--yes 6!--boys in only five years. Of course they were desperate for attention. There's no way to raise six boys properly in a situation like that (with 9 older kids to boot)

In a 3 bedroom room with one bathroom. No wonder that house smelled. Does anyone really believe that this is what God wants for His children?

[formergothardite]

12 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

I always thought the lost boys were so interesting. Imagine having 6--yes 6!--boys in only five years. Of course they were desperate for attention. There's no way to raise six boys properly in a situation like that (with 9 older kids to boot)

Not just boys. There no way to raise girls properly in that situation. The middle group of children in fundie large families always seem lost and deeply craving attention.