UK politics - Shamima Begum

[adidas]

Has this story been covered outside the Commonwealth? I searched but couldn’t find a thread. I don’t live in the Uk so the following is my attempt at recounting what I’ve heard/seen/read in the news. Others here can probably give better or more accurate information.

Details:

A fifteen year old girl was groomed online - she fled from London to Syria and married a Dutch IS fighter. About a month ago she was located - she is now 19 years old and is living in a refugee camp. When she was found she was 9 months pregnant. She disclosed that her two children both died and she doesn’t want to lose her third to disease in the camp. She applied to go back to the UK. 

She gave birth to a baby boy and then found out that the UK had stripped her of her British citizenship, saying that since her parents are from Bangladesh she has dual citizenship and she can go there instead. She says she doesn’t want to go to her her husband’s homeland. But since her son was already born her parents started trying to get him to the UK since he had citizenship which he inherited from him mother. Bangadesh says no, she can’t go there, they don’t want Jihadi brides either.

Shamima has said that she does not regret joining IS even though she doesn’t agree with everything they’ve done. 

Her newborn son died on Thursday at less than three weeks old and her supporters say that the law had been broken since she was left without citizenship or a place to go. They are being blamed by some for baby Jarrah’s death. Others say that Shamima is responsible for putting her children in a deadly situation. The comeback to that is that she was a child who was brainwashed and groomed by terrorists.

Thoughts?

[Jaamillion]

We have a similar case here in the states

https://nj1015.com/isis-bride-was-born-in-hackensack-but-u-s-not-letting-her-return/

[Ozlsn]

I have real issues with the UK's stance for a couple of reasons. Important first note though: I do not believe her return should be without consequences. Frankly I have no problem with her spending time in gaol, being interviewed extensively by MI5 and 6, spending the rest of her life under travel restrictions and/or being monitored. But I do believe she should be allowed to return. (Got long, spoilered)

Spoiler

Firstly - She was born in the UK, lived in the UK, was recruited in the UK. To turn around and say "she's Bangladesh's problem" is a bit rude to say the least. Also to the best of my knowledge UK citizenship is not negated upon marriage to someone of a different nationality - being potentially eligible for citizenship is not the same as having it (ask any Australian politican). 

Secondly it feels like a missed opportunity by the UK to get intelligence and information on how IS are recruiting girls, and at what points she might have changed her mind, been stopped, signs and signals that other parents and authorities can be on the lookout for. 

Thirdly it has given IS an propaganda boost on two fronts - one being "even if you wanted you can't return because they hate you so much" and "they hate Muslims so much they would rather let a baby die than a Muslim in." 

Fourthly it discourages others - who might have useful intelligence and who may very well prove helpful in swaying others in the process of recruitment from that path. Begum is 19 - she is still the age of a large number of people being drawn to this group, and others her age might think twice if they hear someone saying how much of a mistake it was for them and how much they were lied to by IS.  She is still in an environment where IS is close - her rhetoric may well change when/if she is debriefed. 

Fifthly - she was 15 when she left. Yes she is 19 now, but her initial, extremely stupid decision occurred when she was 15. She was not an adult when she left. The age of criminal responsibility in the UK is 10, and she could be charged, but even if she is charged as an adult now she should be in a youth rather than a full adult prison.  I don't know what the UK legislation says, but her initial decision occurred when she was still legally a child, and that should be taken into account.

Sixthly - the enforcement of any of this has been inconsistent, to say the least. Only about 1 in 10 fighters returning from Syria have been prosecuted. Why they have suddenly decided to 'get tough' with a 19yo who is very unlikely to have wielded a weapon (but did probably profit from others doing so) I don't know.

Seventhly - she was in a refugee camp without her husband, and doesn't want to go to his country. I don't know if there are other issues in play here, but if there are then refusing to allow her to return and placing her at higher risk is not what the UK is supposed to stand for.

Finally - and this just makes me sad - her baby was innocent of all this. He did not deserve to die, any more than any three week old baby deserves to die in a refugee camp. She asked for help, and they let him die. I know the only thing that makes this stand out from the mass of others in the camps is that she had citizenship and so legally speaking did he. I don't know why they couldn't at least help him.

Tl;dr: she was 15 when she left, the UK made her and should take responsibility for that.

Tl;dr2: What she said.

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

Frankly I have no problem with her spending time in gaol, being interviewed extensively by MI5 and 6, spending the rest of her life under travel restrictions and/or being monitored. But I do believe she should be allowed to return. (Got long, spoilered)

I agree. She was so young and made a terrible, terrible decision, but teens are not known for their good decision making skills. She doesn't need to be brought back and plopped into society with no oversight, but jail time along with being heavily monitored for the rest of her life seems like a reasonable response to what she did. 

[Howl]

Thanks for starting this thread, @adidas.  It's very sad and I've been thinking about her case and the case of the US ISIS bride.

Shemima Begun had confirmed that she understood she would face consequence (prison time) in the UK, but wanted her baby to survive.  Her 3-week-old baby died of pneumonia.  She's 19, and all three of her babies have died in infancy.  I can only imagine how awful the death rate is for infants and children in that, or any, refugee camp. 

Alternately, what ISIS has done and continues to do and promote is beyond horrible -- mass executions, bombings, public beheadings and formalizing sexual slavery for starters.  If she isn't ready to denounce this, why let her return?  ISIS is on the run and she's in a refugee camp because of it.  Were she in better conditions, would she still wholeheartedly support the cause?  But, she's an ISIS wife with an ISIS husband, where would she get information that would allow her a different perspective? 

There is nothing easy about this, either way. 

 

[fraurosena]

There are reports over here in the news that she is planning to seek asylum in the Netherlands, as her husband has the Dutch nationality. I don't know the current status and if it's only her plan or if she has actually asked about the possibilities, but as soon as I find out more I'll post it here.

Her husband, Yago Riedijk has been sentenced to six years in jail in the Netherlands for joining and fighting for ISIS. Nevertheless, he still wants to come to the Netherlands, with his wife. In an interview with Sky News, he says he knew nothing of ISIS cruelty (yeah, right) and only joined because he wanted to help the people of Syria (very believable premise, so sincere, eh?) In one of the articles I read about him he also says that at first he, as a then 23 year old, didn't want to marry a then 15 year old, but was persuaded to do so because she came to Syria of her own free will and was looking for a husband and really wanted to marry (owwkayyy).

His story is insincere and it stinks. I wouldn't trust him any further than I could throw him. 

[Dreadcrumbs]

1 hour ago, fraurosena said:

There are reports over here in the news that she is planning to seek asylum in the Netherlands, as her husband has the Dutch nationality. I don't know the current status and if it's only her plan or if she has actually asked about the possibilities, but as soon as I find out more I'll post it here.

Her husband, Yago Riedijk has been sentenced to six years in jail in the Netherlands for joining and fighting for ISIS. Nevertheless, he still wants to come to the Netherlands, with his wife. In an interview with Sky News, he says he knew nothing of ISIS cruelty (yeah, right) and only joined because he wanted to help the people of Syria (very believable premise, so sincere, eh?) In one of the articles I read about him he also says that at first he, as a then 23 year old, didn't want to marry a then 15 year old, but was persuaded to do so because she came to Syria of her own free will and was looking for a husband and really wanted to marry (owwkayyy).

His story is insincere and it stinks. I wouldn't trust him any further than I could throw him. 

It's my understanding that IS recruitment stuff is pretty slick, but not that slick.

I must say I am perturbed by how little I see the grooming aspect of this story brought up. Shamima and the others absolutely were groomed.

[Howl]

15 hours ago, fraurosena said:

His story is insincere and it stinks. I wouldn't trust him any further than I could throw him. 

The very cynical part of me realizes that this could simply be a strategy  to repatriate ISIS fighters back to their home countries to continue the fight there. Prison is a great place to radicalize others. 

It's also a way to stay alive. Things are grim for fighters and their families right now, or they are already prisoners. 

I can't remember how many ISIS fighters in Syria are now prisoners -- maybe around 2,000 -- and nobody knows what to do with them. 

[fraurosena]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

The very cynical part of me realizes that this could simply be a strategy  to repatriate ISIS fighters back to their home countries to continue the fight there. Prison is a great place to radicalize others. 

It's also a way to stay alive. Things are grim for fighters and their families right now, or they are already prisoners. 

I can't remember how many ISIS fighters in Syria are now prisoners -- maybe around 2,000 -- and nobody knows what to do with them. 

The sleeper cell possibility is indeed a real risk and I admit that it really worries me. These fighters joined a terrorist organization, usually because of radical, fanatical religious beliefs. These beliefs don't suddenly disappear because they get caught.

These people need to be monitored very, very closely when they return.

 

[Dandruff]

My tentative position is that Shamima effectively renounced her British citizenship well before her baby was born.  She's no longer a minor, and she still supports ISIS - an enemy that has done substantial harm.  The baby was innocent, of course, and suffered and died for his parents' poor decisions.  Nothing new there, sad as it is, and it would be nice if babies in refugee camps could be rescued without great risk.

I wonder what Shamima's parents were doing while she was still home but being recruited.  How does a fifteen year old manage to get from the UK to Syria without the parents having a clue?  Why did it take so long to locate her?  I think if she can find a country willing to take her she should accept the opportunity.

 

[Bethella]

23 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I wonder what Shamima's parents were doing while she was still home but being recruited.  How does a fifteen year old manage to get from the UK to Syria without the parents having a clue?  Why did it take so long to locate her?  I think if she can find a country willing to take her she should accept the opportunity.

I don't know what her parents were doing but the police appear to bear some of the blame for not notifying the families. In December 2014 Sharmeena Begum (no relation to Shamima but they were school friends) left for Syria. The police interviewed seven girls at her school including Shamima, Amira Abase, and Kadiza Sultana. Allegedly the police told both the girls and the school authorities not to tell their families that Sharmeena was believed to have traveled to join ISIS. The police then decided to give letters warning of radicalization risks to the girls rather than sending them direct to parents, so the parents never received the warning. It was also reported that the girls stole jewelry from a family member and sold it, using the money to pay cash for their tickets. There were further complications because Shamima reportedly stole her older sister's passport and used that to travel instead of her own. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11461693/Sisters-of-the-missing-jihadi-brides-to-face-radicalisation-tests.html

[Ozlsn]

And there's an Australian one.

She will almost certainly be imprisoned if she returns, not sure for how long though. I think under the current legislation indefinite detention is a possibility, but as with most things it would be a risk assessment and management case. 

It is annoying me somewhat that Kurdish authorities requested help from western nations in taking back and processing at least their own citizens and got... crickets. I have no idea how local services would cope anywhere if 30,000 people suddenly arrived - I think that help with processing and managing should be being offered. 

23 hours ago, Dandruff said:

it would be nice if babies in refugee camps could be rescued without great risk.

My current feeling is that nations dealing arms should be held financially responsible for refugees fleeing wars those arms are used in. I know it won't happen, but it might slow some of the deals if they knew that they would need to fund emergency food and medical relief. 

A discussion about legal options for trying IS fighters (and presumably supporters).

"However the ICC does not have jurisdiction over the territory on which these crimes were committed. Neither Iraq nor Syria have signed the ICC's Rome Statute. The ICC Prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, cannot bring charges herself."

"The Security Council has voted a dozen times between 2011 and 2018 to bring the Syrian situation before the ICC, and a dozen times Russia, often with China's backing, has vetoed the move."

Why am I not surprised?

[HurricaneBells]

I wondered if this would make it to FJ.... I am cold hearted on this. How many mothers face this situation of having children in war? I am sure they would like to be offered an escape from a situation they didnt ask for. She (along with all these jihadi brides) however did ask for it, ran away to join it and begged to come home when it didnt suit her to continue on. She continues to have sex and fall pregnant repeatedly despite the situation they are in and demands to be let back in to protect that child. It hurts my heart for this poor babe and those of these women but i dont see why they should be saved when millions of others have no hope of the same opportunity. 

[Workingmom]

There are reports over here in the news that she is planning to seek asylum in the Netherlands, as her husband has the Dutch nationality.

On 3/10/2019 at 11:28 PM, fraurosena said:

There are reports over here in the news that she is planning to seek asylum in the Netherlands, as her husband has the Dutch nationality. 

She won't be allowed to come to the Netherlands because: 

1 Their marriage isn't recognized, because she was a childbride.

2 he has no income to  support his wife , he is sentenced to 6 year in jail.

3 she is a member of a terrorist  organization.