Josie and Kelton 4: Please Leave the Catholics Alone and Now Gestating

[Coconut Flan]

Continued from here:

Somehow the last thread had meandered to Nathan converting Catholics.

[formergothardite]

I'm am fairly sure that this mission trip will involve attempting to convert Christians to Christianity and possible Nathan doing some more amateur dental work. 

[HereticHick]

14 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I'm am fairly sure that this mission trip will involve attempting to convert Christians to Christianity and possible Nathan doing some more amateur dental work. 

Absolutely. I don't believe the Bates and their Gothardy friends can conceive of doing ANY sort of service work, anywhere, that doesn't involve a healthy dose of proselytizing [and if Lawson or Carlin is involved, preening and posing in selfies]

[rebeccawriter01]

17 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I'm am fairly sure that this mission trip will involve attempting to convert Christians to Christianity and possible Nathan doing some more amateur dental work. 

That's pretty much the basis of Crown College. No matter what your major, you learn how to proselytize and convert the heathens. 

Automotive technology? Preach while you change a tire. Education? Witness while you teach. Cosmetology? Convert while you cut. 

[HereticHick]

3 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

That's pretty much the basis of Crown College. No matter what your major, you learn how to proselytize and convert the heathens. 

Automotive technology? Preach while you change a tire. Education? Witness while you teach. Cosmetology? Convert while you cut. 

Soul-winning through welding!  https://crowntradesandtech.com/welding/ 

[TeaELSee]

10 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

Automotive technology? Preach while you change a tire. Education? Witness while you teach. Cosmetology? Convert while you cut. 

This reminded me of a story. Years ago we were coming home from a trip to Toronto back to the states. About an hour into our trip our engine started smoking like it was on fire. It was Christmastime, dark and really cold. We were thankfully by an exit and a small town so we got it towed and the automotive place owner drove us to a hotel for the night. My youngest was less than 2 months old so we were very thankful for the quick help. The next day they brought us our car with a new alternator free of charge because Jesus told them to help us.

Now we are not religious at all and we really thought that was kind and unnecessary of them. 

We loved telling people Jesus bought us an alternator though.

 

 

[just_ordinary]

I think sometimes it can get muddled as some branches of Fundamentalism make their way into politics. (1) You can be a complete asshole, holding horrible believes and not be religious, (2) you can be a complete asshole holding horrible believes and be a Fundie while those believes have nothing to do with your religious views, (3) you can be a complete asshole, holding horrible believes based on your religion but still don’t try to make your way of living a rule for everyone else, (4) or you try to make it the rule for everyone, (5)....

I am wary about calling every conservative Christian with horrible believes a Fundie. You can definitely be that without fitting the definition of Fundamentalism.

[formergothardite]

36 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

I think sometimes it can get muddled as some branches of Fundamentalism make their way into politics.

The Webster family falls into this category. Alyssa married into one of the political IBLP families whose goal is to use politics to push their fundamentalist beliefs. 

[TatiFish9]

@formergothardite is John in office or running? I have not seen much of him family (larger Webster) because I dont follow them.

[formergothardite]

He isn't, but Alyssa and John have recently been seen visiting John's dad (Taliban Dan) in Washington and their pictures along with their kids pictures are used by Taliban Dan as part of his campaigning. Alyssa married into a political IBLP family and lets her children and herself be used to help get a pretty scary fundamentalist elected. 

People sometimes think political fundies are going to look like the Duggars did back when Jim Bob was running for office, but that isn't always the case. Sonny Perdue, the current Secretary of Agriculture is a Gothard follower and his family is far from frumpers. Sonny says that outside the Bible, the teachings of Gothard influence his decisions the most. 

[TatiFish9]

@formergothardite

I wonder just what Alyssa and John's personal beliefs are despite them being guilty by association.

I still associate with my very fundie mod family. People sometimes mistake me for sharing their beliefs because I support their events depending on the nature. However, we are not into politics.

I could see how that would become difficult for John and Alyssa if they wanted to stay connected to their families, still needed financial support but are in a developmental phase where they're trying to find themselves. Alyssa may very well (and most likely still does promote harmful politics) but personally she is losing her fundie flare. And it aint just her clothing and glossy hair. Hard for me to explain here short of what I have already said. 

I see things from her that represents a fundie who was never really a fundie, just born into it. As I am sure you know, second gen life is not easy. You did not choose this world view. It is the only one you know. Being sheltered often makes it difficult to find your own way. But either you believe or you (often secretly) don't. Alyssa seems like something other than a fundie to me. But of course that notion could be wrong.

At the end of the day, I will not dispute any egregious political stances by her and John. I just whole heartedly agree with @just_ordinary 's perspective on this.

 

[formergothardite]

52 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

I wonder just what Alyssa and John's personal beliefs are despite them being guilty by association.

What signs have the shown that they don't share Taliban Dan's horrific beliefs?

~They go campaign for him

~They let him use their image and the image of their children to get elected.

~They go happily visit his office in Washington and post about it. 

~They have never at any point said or did anything to say they disagree with him. 

What signs are there that she no longer shares the awful, awful beliefs that Taliban Dan pushes? Again, people like Sonny Perdue are Gothard followers and they dress in normal, Perdue attends Halloween events and I'm not even sure he homeschooled, yet he talked about using Gothard teachings while he was Governor. Do you think Perdue isn't fundie?

So I'm just confused why people think Alyssa didn't just become the Webster sort of IBLP fundie? 

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by formergothardite

[SilverBeach]

3 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I am wary about calling every conservative Christian with horrible believes a Fundie.

I bet that a Venn diagram would overlap quite a bit.

[formergothardite]

38 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I bet that a Venn diagram would overlap quite a bit.

Yes. And once a conservative Christian starts voting with those conservative beliefs trying to create a world where their beliefs are dominate and others are crushed, what makes them NOT fundie? 

[Coconut Flan]

Being conservative isn't the same as fundie in my world.  I know conservatives both religiously and politically and there are still things that keep them from being the same as the fundies that I know.  There are differences in both religious belief and practice and some differences politically.  It's a continuum with the fundies being  an extreme.  With my neighbors the biggest difference is having some ability to think and change.  They aren't as isolated or scared of the world either.

[nickelodeon]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

He isn't, but Alyssa and John have recently been seen visiting John's dad (Taliban Dan) in Washington and their pictures along with their kids pictures are used by Taliban Dan as part of his campaigning. Alyssa married into a political IBLP family and lets her children and herself be used to help get a pretty scary fundamentalist elected. 

Well put! It's very convenient for Webster to be seen surrounded by little girls in white dresses. He has a "family man" reputation to uphold while he's working to get Trump's wall built.

[TatiFish9]

32 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Being conservative isn't the same as fundie in my world.  I know conservatives both religiously and politically and there are still things that keep them from being the same as the fundies that I know.  There are differences in both religious belief and practice and some differences politically.  It's a continuum with the fundies being  an extreme.  With my neighbors the biggest difference is having some ability to think and change.  They aren't as isolated or scared of the world either.

Exactly. 

 

[TatiFish9]

My husband is a conservative Christian. I am so much more progressive than he politically and  sociallu. Even he criticizes and mocks my family at times. He can not believe the beliefs I was raised under. To the outer world ( even other Christians) the bahviors and the strict adherance to certain scriptures seem quite freakish. 

[formergothardite]

But what signs are there that Alyssa isn't fundie like the FIL she supports, Taliban Dan?

[TatiFish9]

But my hub and family vote the same way on many issues. 

However, hub not a Trump supporter. My fam...well we suspects some undercovers. And there is a whole lot of "pray for leadership" when we point out the blaring contridictions and grave concerns with this administration.

[Palimpsest]

3 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

My husband is a conservative Christian.

Can you define what you mean by "conservative Christian."

[TatiFish9]

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

But what signs are there that Alyssa isn't fundie like the FIL she supports, Taliban Dan?

I guess none.  I am not being smart. There is just no way I can prove it without actually knowing them. And what I suspect, I already pointed out. I was told Fundies do everything -drink, smoke, dress non modest, celebrate halloween, curse, etc  Those things were just fads. So I guess she is fundie. That is not my understanding of fundie, but perhaps mine is wrong.

[formergothardite]

50 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

With my neighbors the biggest difference is having some ability to think and change. 

But fundies can change and still be fundie too. We see it with the Bates. They have changed things significantly, especially the way they present themselves, yet are still fundie. They now let their daughters dress in a lot more modern looking clothing and are even allowing dancing! Yet they help head up a cult. 

We have seen other fundies change too, especially if a particular fundie trend, like the strict no touch courtship, starts falling out of favor. Even Chelsea Maxwell is saying she dated John, yet she is pretty fundie. 

 

[SilverBeach]

9 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Being conservative isn't the same as fundie in my world.  I

It's the horrible beliefs that make the difference. I think the Venn diagram of liberal/fundy wouldn't have nearly as much overlap as conservative/fundy, but the overlap wouldn't be 100% for the conservatives, of course.

9 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

And there is a whole lot of "pray for leadership"

This nonsense helped cement my decision to leave the church I was a member of for five years. "Leadership'' (Dump) was not condemned for his hateful behavior. I always responded that I was praying for the rest of us who are the victims of "leadership". Only once did I hear indirect criticism of Dump from the pulpit when the separation and incarceration of children was headlining the news. Better than nothing, I suppose. Silence would have been better than telling me to pray for that devil.

Edited February 3, 2019 by SilverBeach

[kmachete14]

I agree that there is a lot of overlap.

One thing I think is different is that conservative Christians do not have a cult-like approach to only associating with other conservative Christians, almost 100% avoiding "worldly" things, crippling their children's education, or otherwise controlling/sheltering their children's development inside such a small bubble. They may still have awful beliefs and political affiliations, but their children are not trapped in their world.